[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":65111},["ShallowReactive",2],{"/podcast/cto-special-37-wieland-lindenthal-von-openproject":3},{"podcast":4,"pickOfTheDayCount":89,"speakerCount":90,"relatedPodcasts":91,"transcript":92},{"id":5,"published_on":6,"type":7,"number":8,"title":9,"slug":10,"description":11,"transcript":12,"audio_url":13,"apple_url":12,"google_url":12,"spotify_url":12,"cover_image":14,"banner_image":26,"speakers":36,"members":66,"picks_of_the_day":84,"tags":85,"tagsPrepared":86,"speakersPrepared":87},"5dd99bfc-d195-4d4f-9d18-baa0e51a577e","2026-01-13T05:00:00.000Z","cto_special","#37","Wieland Lindenthal von OpenProject","cto-special-37-wieland-lindenthal-von-openproject","\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Wusstet ihr, dass ein \u003Ca href=\"https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/68678/Apple-iMac-G3-(Slot-Loading-Tangerine)/\">orangefarbener iMac\u003C/a> in England und die ersten Online-Wörterbücher den Grundstein für \u003Ca href=\"https://github.com/opf/openproject\">OpenProject\u003C/a>, eines der bekanntesten Open-Source-Projektmanagement-Tools gelegt haben?\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">In diesem CTO-Special begleiten wir Wieland Lindenthal, Mitgründer und CTO von OpenProject, auf seinem Weg vom frühen, aber kurzen, Uni-Job hin zur Selbständigkeit und schließlich zu einer Software, die heute europaweit in Behörden und Unternehmen eingesetzt wird.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Wieland erzählt, warum ihn die akademische Laufbahn nie so richtig gepackt hat, wie er über die Open-Source-Community zu \u003Ca href=\"https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redmine\">Redmine\u003C/a> fand und weshalb genau dieses Projekt später zur Basis für OpenProject wurde. Wir sprechen darüber, was offene Software wirtschaftlich sowie strategisch spannend macht und wie sie sich gegenüber großen SaaS-Anbietern positioniert.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Außerdem nehmen wir euch mit nach Spanien: Wieland arbeitet seit Jahren komplett remote, führt sein Team aus der Ferne und erklärt, warum physische Nähe trotzdem weiterhin eine Rolle spielt – nur eben anders, als man vielleicht denkt.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Zum Schluss blicken wir auf \u003Ca href=\"https://www.opendesk.eu/de/ueber\">OpenDesk, mittlerweile eine Initiative des Zentrums für Digitale Souveränität (ZenDiS)\u003C/a>. Wieland berichtet, wie dort im Auftrag der Bundesregierung offene, moderne und leistungsfähige Alternativen zu etablierter Software gefunden und ausgebaut werden und welche Bedeutung OpenProject dabei hat.\u003C/p>",null,"https://www.buzzsprout.com/176239/episodes/18461274-cto-special-37-wieland-lindenthal-von-openproject.mp3",{"id":15,"title":16,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":17,"filename_download":18,"metadata":19,"type":20,"filesize":21,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":22,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":24,"folder":12,"width":25,"height":25,"charset":12,"duration":12},"b4e1fc1e-fa6b-4572-84f3-68c38ca14ee1","Cto37 Wieland Lindenthal","b4e1fc1e-fa6b-4572-84f3-68c38ca14ee1.png","cto37_Wieland Lindenthal.png",{},"image/png","1951170","2026-01-06T13:46:58.582Z","11a655b6-bcfc-4c6c-a13c-68189e38edb9","2026-01-06T13:46:58.580Z",1500,{"id":27,"title":28,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":29,"filename_download":30,"metadata":31,"type":20,"filesize":32,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":33,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":34,"folder":12,"width":35,"height":35,"charset":12,"duration":12},"34e916ff-cb50-494e-81c3-1ef09768caac","Wieland Lindenthal Profile","34e916ff-cb50-494e-81c3-1ef09768caac.png","Wieland Lindenthal_profile.png",{},"791646","2026-01-06T13:40:10.355Z","2026-01-06T13:40:10.353Z",1024,[37],{"speaker":38},{"id":39,"slug":40,"academic_title":12,"occupation":41,"first_name":42,"last_name":43,"description":44,"event_image":45,"profile_image":57},"f1a115a7-2c8f-48e4-83fe-220d45d8ecaa","wieland-lindenthal","Co-founder und CTO von OpenProject","Wieland","Lindenthal","\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Wieland baut am liebsten gemeinsam im Team – eine Leidenschaft, die ihn seit den frühen Internet-Jahren prägt, als aus „Computern sind eher doof“ plötzlich grenzenlose Möglichkeiten wurden. Schon in der Oberstufe gründete er mit seinen Brüdern ein Startup, später folgte ein weiteres mit Kommilitonen vom Hasso-Plattner-Institut – jeweils kurz vor großen Wirtschaftskrisen.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Heute baut er vor allem Teams, remote aus Mallorca, die \u003Ca href=\"https://openproject.org\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">OpenProject\u003C/a> entwickeln: eine Open-Source-Projektmanagement-Lösung, die Jira Konkurrenz macht und ganz ohne Venture-Kapital auf über 50 Mitarbeitende gewachsen ist.\u003Cstrong id=\"docs-internal-guid-231ee032-7fff-afd2-7d2f-c964f1e7ff45\">\u003C/strong>\u003C/p>",{"id":46,"title":47,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":48,"filename_download":49,"metadata":50,"type":51,"filesize":52,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":53,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":54,"folder":12,"width":55,"height":56,"charset":12,"duration":12},"f17a4ec4-169e-4c5e-801c-4044f9712653","Action 02","f17a4ec4-169e-4c5e-801c-4044f9712653.jpeg","action_02.jpeg",{},"image/jpeg","232924","2026-01-06T13:41:28.530Z","2026-01-06T13:41:28.526Z",2009,1294,{"id":58,"title":59,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":60,"filename_download":61,"metadata":62,"type":20,"filesize":63,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":64,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":65,"folder":12,"width":35,"height":35,"charset":12,"duration":12},"96087a92-b438-4690-9024-b0a252367d94","Wieland Lindenthal Speaker Profile","96087a92-b438-4690-9024-b0a252367d94.png","Wieland Lindenthal_speaker_profile.png",{},"1110272","2026-01-06T13:41:21.025Z","2026-01-06T13:41:21.023Z",[67],{"member":68},{"id":69,"first_name":70,"last_name":71,"occupation":72,"description":73,"normal_image":74},"47099351-508c-44d9-a2a2-855181c72ee8","Jan Gregor","Emge-Triebel","// programmier.bar Tech Community Lead // Podcast-Host","\u003Cp>Jan ist ein echter Technik-Fan mit einer facettenreichen Karriere, die sich über Web-, Mobile-App-Entwicklung und DevOps erstreckt. Dank seiner vielfältigen Rollen – vom Entwickler über den Teamleiter bis hin zum Vice President Development – verfügt Jan über einen großen Erfahrungsschatz in der Softwareentwicklung und Developer Advocacy.\u003Cbr>Seine Leidenschaften jenseits der Technik reichen von Tauchgängen an exotischen Orten über das Eintauchen in digitale wie analoge Spiele bis hin zum Abtauchen in gelungene Plot-Twists in Büchern und Filmen.\u003C/p>",{"id":75,"title":76,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":77,"filename_download":78,"metadata":79,"type":51,"filesize":80,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":81,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":82,"uploaded_on":83,"folder":12,"width":35,"height":35,"charset":12,"duration":12},"ef7c0ccb-a2b5-48a0-8261-c8bbfffd917b","Jan CD","ef7c0ccb-a2b5-48a0-8261-c8bbfffd917b.jpg","Jan_CD.jpg",{},"649400","2024-07-26T09:26:17.846Z","e97179d2-51b3-4deb-828f-9524091441f5","2024-07-26T09:26:17.710Z",[],[],[],[88],{"first_name":42,"last_name":43,"profile_image":57,"slug":40,"description":44,"event_image":45,"academic_title":12},458,187,[],{"id":93,"service":94,"supported_features":95,"speakers":98,"raw_response":104},"afdb0406-3050-44c8-9616-77dd566b3f29","deepgram",[96,97],"timestamps","diarization",[99,102],{"identifier":100,"name":101},"0","Jan",{"identifier":103,"name":42},"1",{"metadata":105,"results":119},{"transaction_key":106,"request_id":107,"sha256":108,"created":109,"duration":110,"channels":111,"models":112,"model_info":114},"deprecated","19bc8bdd-fb3a-4d12-a77e-9512a27f833a","7a45b85f3c42430fd406509d560af031339f7cc0dbc8da705458016041aece83","2026-01-05T18:30:10.318Z",5679.5854,1,[113],"91f8eabe-2126-4ed4-9e56-d480032309b3",{"91f8eabe-2126-4ed4-9e56-d480032309b3":115},{"name":116,"version":117,"arch":118},"2-general-nova","2024-05-09.3071","nova-2",{"channels":120,"utterances":43863},[121],{"alternatives":122},[123],{"transcript":124,"confidence":125,"words":126,"paragraphs":41337},"Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu einem neuen CTO Special hier in der Programmierbar. Ich bin immer noch oder wieder mal oder wie auch immer der Jan bei euch heute hier am Start und ich hab einen sehr interessanten Gast bei mir. Dazu muss man vielleicht einmal aus dem Nähkästchen plaudern und erzählen, meistens ist es ja so, dass wir die Gäste für unsere CTO Specials, die finden meistens Dennis und ich irgendwo auf Veranstaltungen in unserer eigenen Bubble oder sonst irgendwo und dann sprechen wir mit denen und fragen, wie läuft das denn hier so? Unser heutiger Gast wurde uns von einem Teammitglied empfohlen und der hat uns das gepitcht und hat mir dazu ein LinkedIn Profil geschickt und meinte, mit dem sollten wir unbedingt mal reden. Ich hab das LinkedIn Profil aufgemacht, hab son bisschen gegoogelt und ich war instant überzeugt, muss ich sagen. Was hat mich irgendwie überzeugt? Ich find Menschen immer interessant, wenn sie viele viele Sprachen mehr sprechen können als ich, wenn sie super früh schon gegründet haben, wenn sie länger oder immer noch mal außerhalb von Deutschland gewohnt haben und wenn sie viel mit Open Source zu tun haben und unser heutiger Gast vereint das alles in Personalunion und deshalb war das eine eine Instant Entscheidung auf unserer Seite, hier mal ein Gespräch zu suchen und damit herzlich willkommen Wieland Lindenhal. Hallo, schön, dass Du da bist. Dankeschön. Freut mich, hier zu sein. Wieland, die allererste Frage, die ich mir gestellt hab, als ich dein LinkedIn Profil angeguckt hab, war nicht, welche Sprachen Du alles sprichst, sondern ich hab son bisschen geguckt, was Du schon so alles gemacht hast in deinem Leben und ich hab mich gefragt, warst Du irgendwo jemals so ganz klassisch angestellt, überhaupt, irgendwann mal? Ja, witzig. Ja, ich glaub für 'n paar Wochen. Und zwar am Lehrstuhl von Professor Weske. Der mochte mich aber nicht wirklich. Und an diesem Lehrstuhl wurde der zeitgleich der Orax entwickelt. Orax ist der Vorläufer von Signavio. Und da war ein Doktorand mit, der auch sozusagen das Bachelorprojekt mit koordiniert hat, an dem ich mitgearbeitet habe, was ich auch geleitet hatte damals. Und der brauchte mich immer zum Fragen stellen. Der wollte immer, dass ich ihn ausquetsche und seine Konzepte hinterfrage und er sie erklären muss. Und ich hab's dann son bisschen auf 'nem Blatt Papier und aufm Whiteboard dann aufgemalt für ihn, was er mir erklärt hat. Und deshalb bin ich lange gehalten. Also der Signalview ist ja ja groß geworden. Sehr schön, freu ich mich drüber. Aber ich ja, Angestellten sein, das war nicht so mein Ding. Ich hab mal eine Zeit lang noch als Berater gearbeitet, also dann war ich selbstständiger als Berater. Das war auch nicht so mein Ding. Also waren die paar Wochen Festanstellungen so traumatisch für dich, dass Du gesagt hast, so, das das mach ich schon nicht mehr? Ach, keine Ahnung, es hat einfach nicht funktioniert irgendwie. Es ist, weiß nicht, es das Nee, ich muss schon mein Ding dann machen, ne. Und kenn auch mit anderen zusammen. Also nicht mein Ding, sondern unser Ding eigentlich, ja, wenn das Du möchte. Ah, das ist schön. Ja. Und dann hast Du direkt nach oder aus oder vor der Uni gegründet und dich selbstständig gemacht oder wie wie musst Du mir die Geschichte vorstellen? Ja, das ging schon 'n bisschen früher los. Also des die Selbstständigkeit fing in der Oberstufe an. Das muss man vielleicht ausholen. Ich hab eigentlich Competern nicht so gerne gemocht. Das war nicht so mein Ding. Ich fand's irgendwie spannender, mit Hardware zu arbeiten. Also wirklich Hardware schmieden, schweißen, wechseln, Hütten bauen, Öfen bauen und so was. Das fand ich immer cool. Hat aber natürlich den Nachteil, dass Du halt erst mal jemand brauchst, der dir's zeigt. Das Wissen ist nicht da, das Material ist nicht da, das Werkzeug ist nicht da und so. Aufm Dorf war's halt sau langweilig und da war immer so irgendwie ja, der Kampf gegen die Langeweile, das machen. Und ich hatte dann 'n paar gute Freunde, mit denen das halt sehr gut ging. Und ich hatte auch immer Computer zu Hause, aber das war halt nicht interessant. Also ich war relativ klein so, weiß nicht, gefühlt irgendwie 6 Jahre oder 7 Jahre und dann gab's dann halt schon irgendwie Atari und 2 Sechsundachtziger Flugsimulator, war eigentlich 'n wichtiges Thema, Microsoft Flugsimulator und ich fand's halt unglaublich langweilig. Ich war auch alles auf Englisch, hab nichts kapiert. Den den den Norton Commander fand ich irgendwie völlig unlogisch und warum, ja. 'N Drucker haben sowieso nie funktioniert und so was. Also es hat mich echt nicht angemacht, das Zeug, ja. Das ist das war nichts, was mich gerufen hat. Ja genau und dann war's aber so, dass dass dass ich in der, wie war das eigentlich so? Am Ende der Mittelstufe, da hatt ich son son Trip son son Job in der der Schulleistung und da musste ich irgendwie mal raus ins Ausland. Ich musste mal woanders hin. Ich war einmal rebellieren, bin nach England gegangen. Hast hast Du das entschieden oder deine Eltern? Das hab ich entschieden ziemlich genau. Ich wollte eigentlich nach Amerika, hab dann son AllBright Stipendium probiert, bin dann durch mehrere Stufen irgendwie durchgekommen und am Ende musste dann halt die Bundestagsabgeordnete meines Wahlkreises, musste dann entscheiden, wer reinkommt. Und da, weiß ich nicht. Ich glaub, ich war damals 'n bisschen zu, hatte eine zu liberale Weltanschauung und das war 'n SPD Bundestagabgeordnete. Hat nicht so gepasst, weiß ich nicht. So, aber das meine Weltanschauung wird sich dann weiterentwickeln, ne. Nur aber ja. Genau und da bin ich halt der Engländer Gag zu meiner Tante, die wohnt in England. Und das war dann so, dass Internet war teuer. Ich hatte eine Freundin in Deutschland, Briefeschreiben dauerte irgendwie sehr lange, telefonieren war teuer. Und mein ältester Bruder und mein Vater, die haben dann irgendwie die schlaue Entscheidung getroffen und zusammengelegt, haben einen Paket geschickt mit 'nem iMac drin. Ich glaub, das war einen orangener. Und Und da reden wir also nur für die kleinen Kinder zu Hause, da reden wir noch von diesem Röhren iMac, ne, so Röhrenkörper. Polycarbonat Verpackung und so, die die Schönen noch. Aber so ein so ein so ein absoluter Dow, wie ich damals war, ja? Ich muss nur mal erklären, was fürn Dow ich da war. Also ich bin, ich ich wollt halt Internet haben, weil die gesagt haben, musst Internet anschließen. Und dann bin ich halt ins Kiosk gegangen und da gab's immer diese Virgin Internet und so weiter, das ist in England, ne. Internetmagazine, wo Du halt sone CD drauf hattest und diese CD konntest Du nutzen, das Internet zu installieren, ja, für PCs. Ich kannte den Unterschied zu den PCs und Macs aber nicht, ja. Das er, als hab ich andere und alle möglichen Magazine gekauft, die CD auszuprobieren, es zu installieren und es hat halt nicht geklappt. Das ist auf dem Niveau recht da unterwegs. Und das Tolle am Mac war aber auch, dass er halt irgendwie, Jana, der hatte schon USB gehabt. Das heißt, irgend das Zusammenstecken war viel leichter als das, was ich früher ausm Kinderzimmer kannte und was mich so angenervt hatte. Das heißt, das ging dann irgendwie cool. Das was sie, meinen Bruder und meinen Vater dann halt auch noch sehr cool gemacht haben, ist, die hatten dann noch eine CD reingelegt, eine gebrannte, ein Raubgepick quasi von Flash 3 und von und 'nem Buch mit den HTML Basics, ja. Und so kam es dann, dass ich dann 2 Monate später dann meine erste Webseite hatte mit 'ner Flashanimation drauf. Ich glaub, das war irgendwie eine Weihnachtskarte mit 'nem Weihnachtsmann, der vor irgend 'nem Mülltonne wegläuft, irgendwie so was. Also Weihnachtskarten brauchte ich in England. England ist das 'n großes Ding, da braucht man und ich wusste das nicht, als hab ich eine programmiert. Und dann war 'n halbes Jahr England war dann durch. England war sehr, sehr spannend. Die waren 'n bisschen weiter mit Internet. Die hatten dann Computerräume, wo so Pentium 3 Rechner standen. Altavista war bis am Anfang so drüber die Suchmaschine. Und als das das war son 99 2000 Wechsel, da wurde auf einmal Google son Ding. Und wow, Google war cool. Ja, und dann ging's auch son bisschen weiter, dann kam ich aus England zurück und mein Bruder, ältester Bruder war schon son bisschen weiter im Internet, hatte zum Beispiel diesen Nachrichtenaggigator Netzzeitung d e gestartet. Also Internet kostete Geld und man hat nach dem Youtube abgerechnet und die Domain Netzzeitung d e war sozusagen im Familienbesitz, also eine Zweizeit. Und ja, dann gleichzeitig ist auch die Netzzeitung, die erste online only Zeitung gestartet. Und die Leute haben's nicht gehört, Unterschied Netz Zeitung, Netzzeitung und sind dann dort auf der Domain gelandet. Und mein Bruder und mein Vater, die waren halt so schlau, dass sie die Gäste bitte kommen, aber auch was hin auf die Seite auf die Domain parken. Und das war dann eigentlich eine Agglikation der Top 3 Schlagzeilen, also war vor RSS, vor Google News und so weiter. Top 3 Schlagzeilen einfach mit regulären Ausdrücken gepaßt von den Frontseiten der Zeitungen und dann nebeneinandergestellt, sodass Du halt nicht sehen konntest, was die Presse schreibt. Da waren das, das mochten Leute sehr gerne, die irgendwie wollten, 'n schnellen Überblick bekommen wollten und und nicht so viel wie viel's im Internet bezahlen wollten. Genau. So, solche Sachen sind das so in der Zeit passiert und das heißt, mein Bruder konnte da schon son bisschen Pearl und so, hat das mit Pearl gebaut. Und gleichzeitig war es auch so irgendwie das Anfang vom Ende der Dotcom Blase, aber alle haben noch dran geglaubt. Und da kam die Idee auf auch wieder von meinem Bruder und Vater irgendwie so in dem Umfeld, Man könnte doch son Yahoo machen für Schüler, son son Katalog, das Internet für ja Schulmaterial. Wie findet man das eigentlich als Schüler? Und ne, BigSpeater son Ding, man hatte zuerst die die Domain irgendwie im Kicker, also im Auge, Schule im Netz d e. Und die gehörte dann aber jemand anderem, der aber auch in der Topf Dot Com Blase son bisschen, ja, wie soll ich sagen, bullisch unterwegs war, ne, ne und angerufen und einmal getroffen und quasi 20000 Mark irgendwie eingesammelt so und dann damit halt das Start up Schule im Netz DESINGMBH gegründet, ja. Einfachstes Fundraising der Geschichte. Ja, fast. Ich hab son paar Fundraising Geschichten, ja. Das ist ganz witzig. Genau und dann haben wir uns halt irgendwie unglaublich reich gefühlt mit 20000 Mark. Ich weiß noch, dass mein Bruder dann mich im Bahnhof abgeholt hat mit sonem Opel Kadett Kombi und ich saß noch hinten drin, weil vorne war noch 'n anderer Gesellschafter, der dann mit, ja und dann und dann sagt er, okay, Viad, wir machen jetzt Folgendes. Hier meine Tasche und hier mal das, son so MacBook schwarz, son Waffeleisen hieß das bei uns. So, und jetzt tippt er mal rein und dann hat er mir irgendwie sone Terminal irgendwie während des Fahren hat er mir so durch durchgediktiert, was ich damit machen soll, halt mal Programmieren zu lernen und ich hab mich grad als Bilder eigentlich so von mir. Also es macht vielleicht nicht wirklich Sinn gegeben, was ich da eingegeben habe und warum das unglaublich cool ist. Lange Rede, kurzer Sinn, also er, wir haben das Ding hochgezogen. Wir haben ein Portal gebaut. Wir haben die die wir haben das Netz durchforstet. Wir haben Schüler, meine Mitschüler aus der Klasse haben wir eingestellt, dann programmiert. Wir haben Lehrer dazugewonnen, dass sie die Inhalte, die wir einstellen, unser Katalog überprüfen auf Qualität und so weiter. War ziemlich cool. Natürlich hat die Kohle nicht gereicht und dann haben wir halt angefangen als Agentur zu arbeiten. Und glücklicherweise hatten wir da auch Kontakte, haben wir 'n Onlinewörterbücher gebaut für Pons, ne, die Grünen, nicht die gelben. Mhm. Die wir haben uns dann durchfinanziert. Wir haben für RTL, GZSZ d e hab ich Animationen mit Flash gebaut, Schummelcomics und alles Mögliche für 'n Herdverlag haben wir Sachen gemacht. Und das war immer so, dass ich so, dass dass dass Ich war immer dafür verantwortlich, dass das irgendwie so modern und interaktiv und animiert ist so mit Flash. Hab dann irgendwie mit Action Script dann mich dann angefreundet. Und mein Bruder hat hintenrum so das das ganze Datenbanken und so weiter gemacht. Also noch bevor's, ja, wirklich Frameworks oder Open Source gab. Da mussten wir so komische proprietäre Frameworks erinnern, die hießen Prime Base und so. Das das hat er immer gemacht. Und was halt dran interessant ist, ist, dass ich dann halt, dass er und ich, die dann immer so im Gespann gearbeitet haben, schon Probleme hatten, darüber zu reden, was wir eigentlich bauen wollen und wie wir's bauen wollen. Also die Sprache darüber eigentlich ne ne, eine Softwarearchitektur zu beschreiben, die hatten wir einfach nicht. Und das hat uns gehindert. Und ja, irgendwann war die Abitur bei mir halt durch und ich wollte gerne studieren. Und auf 'nem Studiumsmesse hat mich mein anderer Bruder, mit dem wir's auch zusammen gemacht haben. Der ist übrigens jetzt hier der CEO von Open Project, wo wir wo ich jetzt halt seit Jahren unterwegs bin. Der hat mich drauf gestoßen auf einen Stand vom Hasel Plattner Institut. Und das Hasel Plattner Institut, das war damals so, die hatten 2 Jahrgänge schon durch und eigentlich wär Informatik, wenn Du zur Informatik gehen wolltest, bist nach Karlsruhe gegangen. Und da war dieser Stand vom Hasel Plattner Institut und die hatten dann auf auf ihren Standmaterial, hatten die sozusagen die das Versprechen, dass sie Softwareingenieurs, nee, dass sie zur in die Informatik sozusagen Ingenieurskultur reinbringen wollen. Also Pläne Pläne zeichnen, die für Menschen sind. Nicht für Maschinen, die die nicht von Maschinen interpretiert werden sollen, so was wie URL oder so was, sondern wirklich für für Menschen. Und da hat's bei mir Klick gemacht. Also ich, das ist geil. Da hat das muss man anschauen. Und bin dann halt ans Asou Platt Institut zum Studieren gegangen. Meine Noten waren nicht gut genug, weil ich zu viel programmiert hatte. Aber rück- nach, rückverfahren bin ich dann reingekommen, war superhappy und das hat mir alles verändert. Ja, also Softwareingenieurswesen. Seitdem seh ich da ganz, schau ich da ganz, ganz anders drauf. Und ich glaub, das war, das ist eigentlich der Grundstein eigentlich so für für das, was ich heute mache. Also dass ich halt gesehen hab, die die Grenzen von Softwareentwicklung sind eigentlich die Grenzen der der der Teamarbeit. Wie gut kann man über Software reden? Wie kann man sich drauf einigen, was gebaut wird, wie's benannt wird, was es tut, wo die Schnittstellen sind, was die Schnittstellen sind. Genau, das war eigentlich so der Grundstein für Wie Ja. Wie würdest Du dein Verhältnis zur Softwareentwicklung heute beschreiben? Ja, wir haben jetzt viel gehört und da war 'n sehr großer Wandel drin von, na ja, eigentlich hättest Du viel lieber was mit deinen Händen gemacht und was Praktisches und dieses Computerzeug war alles langweilig. Hin zu dem anderen Extrem zu, ja, deine deine Noten waren zu schlecht, weil Du zu viel programmiert hast und dich zu wenig anderes irgendwie gekümmert hast, ja? Und dann Ja. Hast Du's doch irgendwie studiert, so. Jetzt einige Jahre und Jahrzehnte später, wenn Du da drauf guckst so, wie würdest Du dieses Verhältnis beschreiben? Oh, ich bin immer noch sehr gerne am am Basteln, auch mit den Händen. Also ich find, was weiß ich, ich hab hier im Garten brauch ich eine Sauna, ja oder das das ich finde, das gehört eigentlich so dazu, dass das, ne, dass das Machen, das ist mir egal, was es ist. Der Unterschied ist natürlich, das hab ich vielleicht nicht so genau erklärt, aber mit dem Internet kommt halt auf einmal der Zugang zu allem. Du kommst zu Wissen, zu Material und zu Werkzeugen, ja? Und aus 'ner aus der aus dem, wenn Du dich mit Material arbeitest, heute kann ich mir das leisten, aber früher hatte ich den. Ich hatte kein Auto, ums Material zu kaufen, kein Geld. Meine Eltern hatten vielleicht doch nicht so viel Zeit, immer mir alles zeigen und wussten auch nicht alles, ja. Die Bücher zu bekommen, ja, wo sollst 'n die suchen? In der Schulbibliothek, wie man 'n Lehmofen baut? Vergiss es, ja, kriegst Du nicht. Das heißt, das das heißt eigentlich mitm Zugang zum Internet, ne, weiter halt im Paradies. Also das Internet, das war für mich das Ding, was das was wichtig ist, ja. Das Internet ist für mich auch der, das das, da bin ich so richtig emotional dahinter, ne. Da hab ich eine Meinung dazu, da denk ich ja digitale Freiheitsrechte. Einfach nur aus der Erfahrung heraus, welche Freiheit es mir gegeben hat damals, nicht zu entfalten, auszutoben und Sachen aufzubauen. Ja. Das beantwortet die Frage aber nur halb, weil es geht ja auch so darum, also okay, da das war jetzt so, wie ist dein Verhältnis nach wie vor zu zu Bastelarbeit und wie ist dein Verhältnis zum Internet, aber wie guckst Du heute auf Softwareentwicklung wirklich, ja? Wenn ich dir jetzt heute sagen würde, bau mir das oder für eure Firma braucht ihr x y und das muss gebaut werden. Wie guckst Du da drauf? Denkst Du dir, oh, das ist eine Aufgabe, die muss jetzt halt gemacht werden, also mach ich das oder hast Du da Spaß dran und kannst dich da drin verlieren, so wie? Ja, aber also bei mir ist das sehr, sehr klar, dass als Erstes mal das Warum, ne. Also warum ist das eine gute Idee? Also ich baue jetzt nicht das Bauens wegen. Mhm. So, sondern schon das Warum. Und dann bei dem Warum frag ich mich nach dem Wie und bei dem Wie, dann guck ich mich und steck ganz viele Fragen. Und dabei entdecke ich dann neue Software oder neue Frameworks oder neue, ne, Komponenten. Und und dann bin ich dann auch dahinter, weil's mein Problem lösen kann. Also ich hatte diesen diesen Nachrichtenaggregat, den ich schon angesprochen hatte, da hatte ich da das Problem, dass ich 'n Terabyte Daten in 'ner Post Quest Datenbank hatte und das ging nicht mehr weiter. Und wenn das wenn Du dann auf einmal an so was kommst wie, dann ist das halt einen Mindblowing, ne. Das ist halt, da gehen ganz andere Sachen auf einmal und dann finde ich Technologie halt auch wieder spannend, aber halt nur zu den zu 10 Prozent, wie ich's halt brauche. Ich brauch nicht die 100 Prozent, ne. Ich brauch die 10 Prozent, die mir mein Problem löst und und so gehe ich dann halt, ich persönlich halt bin ich halt in allen Stacks auf allen Layern, ne, also da bin ich dann 10 Prozent drin und knote das zusammen, halt das Produkt zu bauen, aber halt ja mit den richtigen Werkzeugen am richtigen Platz, ne. Das das ist da sozusagen, also ich glaube, das ist das Was und dann halt diese Ingenieursgedanke. Wie wie wie was ist die richtige Architektur? Wie kann ich dafür sorgen, dass das richtige Werkzeug das Problem löst, was auch wartbar ist, was ich ja, was Strukturen hat, die die teamfähig sind, ja? Also heute, das ist, mein klar, kommen wir vielleicht noch später zu, aber 2005, da kam das Rails Framework raus, ne. Das das hat mich sehr geprägt, dass da alles drin ist, was man eigentlich braucht, Produkte zu bauen. Ne, Rails ist 'n ist 'n ist 'n Framework, das da hat dieser Typ, der New David Heinemeiner Heinemile Hanson, die h 8, der hat dann in soner halben Stunde son Block hingehämmert, ja. Und das ist halt genau das, was ich meine. Du kannst einen 'n Produkt raushauen und Du hast trotzdem alle architektonischen Grundsteine drin von Datenmigration, relationales Datenmapping, Controller, Du hast 'n Frontend, Du hast CSS zusammenkompiliert und so weiter. Also ist auch alles drin, alles da und Du könntest damit einfach bauen. Und das eine Person, ein Ding von vorne bis hinten. Ja, das macht's halt unglaubliche Freiheits grade. Jetzt hast Du ja schon gesagt, so Sachen, die dir wichtig sind, ne, dass Werkzeuge irgendwie für Teams funktionieren müssen und Software kann immer nur so gut sein wie die Menschen und die Prozesse irgendwie hinten dran und da hast Du irgendwie auch Interesse an Kollaboration. Und wenn man auf sone Biografie guckt, auch auf die eigene, im Nachgang erscheint ja vieles immer so sinnvoll und sieht dann so aus, als wär das so, hätte sich so ganz organisch gegeben und war schon immer irgendwie in diesen Bahnen gelenkt, ja. Aber wenn jetzt jemand vor 10 oder 15 Jahren vor dir gestanden hätte und gesagt hätte, na ja, guck mal, Du wirst mit diesem Open Project sone, es wird eine große Company sein und das wird alles Open Source und das wird irgendwie auch son Open Source Framework aufbauen und trotzdem verdient ihr damit Geld und überhaupt so. Hättest Du dem das geglaubt? Also war das war das schon immer so dein Ziel oder hat sich das durch durch Zufall ergeben? Wie seid ihr wie seid ihr dahin gekommen? Also gute Frage. Also hätte das jemand jemand jemand damals gesagt, ob das einen schöner wäre, dann hätt ich gesagt, ja, ja. Hätte ich jetzt aber als mein Ziel definiert, vermutlich nicht. Mein Ziel war dann damals noch 'n ganz anderes. Mein Ziel war so, also ich hab da ja irgendwie studiert und dann hab ich war ich auch im Ausland, war 'n Jahr in Moskau, kam zurück, wollte unbedingt tolle Infrastruktur in Deutschland nutzen, wieder Firma zu machen und so was. Hab tolle Kollegen gefunden, die einfach alles auch viel schlauer waren in in der Uni und so. Aber war in der Uni so, ich musste mich durchkämpfen. Und dann war die Uni fertig und konnte dann auf einmal loslegen, weil wir wieder son Wörterbuch gebaut haben. Und und dafür brauchte ich halt Leute und das fand ich spannend, ne. Ich brauch ich fand das spannend in in an der Uni schon die die Leute, die ich kannte. Der eine hat sich für Performance interessiert, der andere mehr für Administration, der nächste für Datentransformation und Bereinigung. Und die konnt ich dann also zusammenführen und 'n Team aufbauen, was dann Software Engineering macht. Und das haben wir dann eigentlich als das Produkt damals so gesehen. Wir haben gesagt, also mit mir war ich ja wieder meine meine Brüder, die da auch involviert waren wieder, dass sie gesagt haben, wir bauen son Softwareingenieursbüro auf. Das sind so so Begriffe, die gab's damals gar nicht, Softwareingenieursbüro. Wir hatten so dann das das Ding, wir hatten weiße Helme, weil in Deutschland Aufbau Ingenieure weiße Helme haben, ja. Das war so das das das, wenn neue ja Studenten und Mitarbeiter dann bei uns angefangen, haben sie erst mal son Helm bekommen mit ihrem Namen drauf, ja. Das das war so das Verständnis, was wir machen wollten. Wir wollten einfach bessere Software bauen mit weniger Leuten. Und das haben wir dann auch geschafft. Also das zum Beispiel dieses Wörterbuch, da da haben wir, da sind wir abgegangen, ja. Da haben wir gesagt, okay, wir wollen schnell viele Features bauen, also so, wie heißt das noch mal? User generated content, also Wikipedia Ansatz für Wörterbücher. Das heißt, wir brauchen son Editorial Office, ja, wo's irgendwie viele Features hat, wo dann so Prozesse abgehen wie ja, jemand macht 'n Vorschlag, muss angenommen werden und so was. Das war grad billig und einfach mit Rails bauen. Wir wussten, Rails hat nicht die Performance für die Suchmaschine. Also haben wir gesagt, okay, für die Suchmaschine nehmen wir Lysin und nehmen dort die Java Virtual Maschine unten drunter. Und damit das beides zusammen funktionieren kann, haben wir halt Ruby auf der Java Virtual Maschine laufen lassen mit JWM. Das hat funktioniert, haben wir hingekriegt. Und das gab's nicht so oft auf der Welt, aber ja, die Performance war da, 1000 Request pro Sekunde haben wir hingekriegt und wir hatten das Editorial Office. Leider ist dann dem Kunde irgendwann da das Geld ausgegangen. Mhm. Und er musste mir dann weitergehen und dann Ja, aber nicht, ne, Du siehst, also das mein Ziel war's eigentlich den Teams aufzubauen, die zusammen sich ergänzen, gemeinsam an etwas arbeiten und ja, einfach schwere Nüsse knacken, ne. Das das das war schon das Ziel. Aber das immer war's auch dabei, die die Komponente, das Produkt zu definieren. Also das, wir haben dann mit dem Kunden zusammen das Produkt definiert und haben da sehr, sehr viel Einfluss genommen und die Architektur ergab sich dann halt oftmals daraus. Und wann kam dann so der Wandel von, ihr seid ein Ingenieursbüro, was quasi Lösungen für andere baut hin zu so was wie Open Project, wo man sagt, okay, das ist jetzt unser eigenes Produkt, das wir selber vertreiben. Ja, das ist eine eine eine eine komischer Turn, der da stattfindet. Also 2005 und 2000, ja doch 2005 im Bachelorprojekt, der hat mir schon so was benutzt, uns zu koordinieren, also 7 Leute, hat was benutzt, das hieß Track. Track wars und Subversion, Frontend mit son bisschen Aufgaben, Management und Wiki, glaub ich. Bin mir nicht so ganz sicher. Und okay, das war so in meinem Freundeskreis war das so das das Ding, was wir immer verwendet haben für unsere Projekte. Also im Freundeskreis aus der Uni, ne. Und und dann wurde das ziemlich schnell abgelöst durch den durch das viel bessere Werkzeug, Red Mine. Ich wusste, dass es jetzt kommt. Ich wollte ich wollte grade noch was zu Red Mine sagen und dann, ja. Ja. Weil es auch viel, viel besser ist halt auch. Ja, das ist supergut. Vielleicht für die Leute, die nicht ist das Redmine ist. Redmine ist halt auch eigentlich das größte, was war's damals auf jeden Fall, das größte Open Source Projekt auf Wales Basis, sone Art Jira, ja, mit allem drinnen, was man so braucht, einen Team zu koordinieren, also Issue Tracking, Wiki, Subversion Integration, später halt auch geht. Da gab's sogar so einfache Zeitenerfassung. Ich vergess jetzt bestimmt noch irgendwas Wichtiges. Also ohne das technisch kleinreden zu wollen, aber RedMine hat das halt vor 20 Jahren geschafft oder vor vor 15 Jahren geschafft, den den Charme, den Girau heute ausmacht, damals schon irgendwie zu sehr haben. Ja, ja, da der der Charme, der ist wichtig. Da können wir gleich doch noch noch mal drauf zurückkommen. Jedenfalls haben wir dann halt Dreadman angefangen einzusetzen, uns selbst zu koordinieren, unsere Arbeiten an den Wörterbüchern und so was. Und ja, wir haben auch noch Suburation verwendet und so was. Das das war eigentlich toll. So und als, der der war sone, ich glaub's aber auch noch 'n paar Wirtschaftskrisen in der Zwischenzeit. Wir hatten so namhafte Kunden, die dann irgendwie alle zusammen gleichzeitig entschieden haben, nicht mehr zu zahlen. Und das war eine ziemlich harte Zeit. Wir waren da kurz vor Bankroptacy und weiter und dann hab ich das gemacht, was ich eigentlich nie machen wollte. Ich bin tatsächlich per Bodylasing gemacht von mir selbst, ne. Ich bin nach München gegangen, ich war auch in Berlin gewohnt, München gegangen, hab für Siemens Corporate Finance dort war ich dann Berater. Das hat mich innerlich quasi zerrissen eigentlich, weil ich dachte, es ist nicht mein Ding. Und hab denen dann geholfen beim ja, Glossare und Wörterbuchfunktionalitäten in ihr Finance Training reinzubekommen. Und dieses Softwareprojekt, das brauchte dann wieder Koordinierung und wir haben eine für Redman verwendet. Und dort wurde dann hat haben's dann die Leute von Siemens gesehen, junge Leute und haben gesagt, oh cool, das könnt doch auch gebrauchen für unsere Prozesse. Und könnt, aber wir müssten da Kostenplanung haben. Und schwuppdiwupp wurd's danach Glossarentwicklungen gab's dann auf einmal Red Mind Plug in Entwicklung. Und damit waren wir dann auf einmal im Open Source Business, weil ist, das heißt, ne, ist da drin und so weiter. Alles, was man dann baut, ist dann auch wieder GPL, wenn's reingeknotet wird. Und ja, wir haben dann die Software immer weiter erweitert für den Kunden, 'n Corporate Kunde dann und Redman war nicht so Corporate. Und wir haben immer versucht, dann im Chor von Redman Sachen reinzubekommen, damit wir, ne, mit unseren Plug ins ja, die die die Features reinbekommen, die die die Redman dann halt ja, corpidfähig machen. Und da gab's, das war also auf einmal entstand da so ein ein ein, ich wollt die Software für Geldbusiness im Open Source Bereich. Und mit der Zeit wurde es aber immer anstrengender, weil wir echt auch gewachsen sind und da immer mehr drauf aufgebaut haben und wir aber zu wenig Einfluss auf den Chor hatten, unsere Versprechen, die wir uns in unseren Kunden gegeben haben, umsetzen zu können. Genau und dann war's dann irgendwann so weit, dass wir gesagt haben, boah, unsere Roadmap, die entwickelt sich schneller als die von von Redman selbst. Und der Redman Gründer, ich hab 'n leider nie persönlich getroffen, aber ich ich hab 'n großen Respekt vor ihm. Der hat mir eine gute Linie durchgezogen für sich, aber hat halt nicht zu unserer gepasst. Und dann haben wir dann irgendwann, okay, kam bald nicht zusammen, haben wir dann halt einen einen Fock Forg gemacht, also schöne Open Source, ne. Das hatten wir noch Chilli Project und 'n paar Monate später. Mein Bruder hatte da einfach Open Project die Domains gekauft, org und com. Und dann haben wir das gesagt, nee, besserer Name, nehmen wir Open Project. Das heißt, das war eigentlich noch so immer noch, okay, Open Source Projekt, wir bauen Software für Geld. Und ne, waren so Kunden dann irgendwie Deutsche Telekom und so. Und ja, und dann kommt dann so die Idee, ne, okay, lass uns das doch einfach mal hosten. Das war son neues Ding. Ist doch cool, weil dein GPL ist dann halt kein Problem, ja. Du Du hostest das einfach. Alles, was Du hinter deinem auf den Server packst, musst Du nicht rausgeben als Code. Das war son bisschen eigentlich fast anti, anti Open Source könnte man's fast sagen, ne. Da kannst Du halt also redmin nehmen, da heißt Open Project erweitern und musst es nicht rausgeben, hast Du vielleicht einen einen Wettbewerbsvorteil. Ist Open Project heute immer noch ein Red Mind Fock oder habt ihr's irgendwann mal komplett auf eigene Beine gestellt? Du findest immer noch Code von Red Mind drin. Ja, und Leute, die von Red Mind kommen und umsatteln, die finden noch grundlegende Konzepte darin wieder, ja. Das ist das ist noch recht recht in den Grundzügen kann man das erkennen. Kriegen wir auch mal wieder, das Feedback. Aber auch zu unserem Vorteil. Also Leute fanden Redman gut, irgendwie nützlich und die finden sich dann wieder und freuen sich darüber, wie viel moderner das alles ist, ja. Man man sieht es eben nicht an, so. Das kann man kann man, glaub ich, mal festhalten. Dass da Redmine irgendwie drunter steckt oder so. Ah, okay cool, das freut mich. Ja, wir haben auch viel gemacht, ne. Genau. Wir haben dann dieses Spiel des DisARs Businesses probiert, dass wir einfach ja Open Project auf multitensive fähig gemacht haben und sozusagen 'n billiges Hosting angeboten haben mit unseren Enterprise Features drin. Also Enterprise Corporate, ne, ist das, was die Idee, die wir hatten, war halt durch besseres UI, moderneres Interaktions ja, Oberflächenansprechender zu sein als Red Mine und 'ner anderen Kunden anzusprechen. Ging nicht so gut. Das das also dieser Markt ist voll mit Projektmanagement Software, Software a Service und sich da zu behaupten, ist nicht leicht. Also das ne, da da mit Geld zu verdienen. Interessanterweise, was dann aber Jahre später, also ich mein, in der Zeit, ne, war wurde immer halt quer subventioniert durch Softwareingenieurs Bürosarbeit und Produkt aufgebaut und und hier Auftrag und da Auftrag und hier erweitern durch die Fähigkeit und die Fähigkeit. Ja, mit der Zeit dadurch, dass es halt 'n Open Source Projekt war, jedenfalls versucht, also die die Open Source Community rund Open Project, ja, das die gab's ja eigentlich am Anfang gar nicht. Und die heute ist die Open Source Community unter Open Project eigentlich was anderes, als man sich so romantischerweise vorstellt. Es sind eigentlich die Kunden, die Erweiterungen an Open Project finanziert haben und drangeblieben sind. Das ist die Open Source Community, ne. Das es geht ums Entwickeln von Software, die Organisation dient. Organisation ist kein Hobbybereich, ne. Das ist da da entwickelt niemand irgendwie fiese Prozessoptimierung, Geschäftsprozesse abbilden und und Kostenerfassung und Exporte, Importe. Das das passiert nicht im Hobbybereich, ist nicht so wie bei Nextcloud, ne. Nextcloud, jeder braucht mal den Fileserver, Fotos hochladen, Dateien teilen oder so was. Das das bei bei Open Proteyge ist das anders. Unsere Community ist also mehr aus diesem Kunden heraus. Genau, aber diese Community existierte. Und was wollten die eigentlich von uns, ne? Die wollten dann häufig eigentlich, dass die Software bei ihnen aufm Server läuft. Siemens wollte das. Die, na oder ja, eigentlich alle Kunden, die zu uns kamen, die wollten's eigentlich auf ihren in ihren Rechenzentrumzentren laufen lassen. Und diese dort haben wir dann irgendwann angefangen halt 'n Produkt zu Ist das son, sorry, wenn ich da kurz unterbreche. Ist das son deutsches Mittelstandsproblem? So, dass aber wir wir wollen das hier nicht als Software Service einkaufen, sondern wir wollen das auf unsere Infrastruktur und unter unserer und unter unserer Kontrolle. Ist das Ja. Ist das was son kulturelles Ding? Das ist nicht nur Mittelstand, ne. Also Du wir haben auch namhafte Autohersteller, die das machen. Die auf die sagen, nee, es gibt no way, dass wir unsere Daten bei Amazon reingeben. Nee, wie lang, passiert nicht, ja. Bisschen was anderes ist irgendwie die Bahn oder so was, ne, die die Eisenbahn bei uns, die Deutsche, die die hat da nicht so Probleme, aber so ne Mittelstand und auch Großunternehmen in Deutschland, wenn die halt Industriegeheimnisse haben, das ist völlig klar, dass das nicht auf amerikanische Server geht oder auf amerikanisch kontrollierte Server geht. Also es, weißt Du, bei Siemens damals, die die haben da son Ding, das ist 'n rechtensamt, das heißt Eagle, cooler Name. Das das das war immer 'n Riesenthema, da irgendwie Zugang zu bekommen und da Sachen deployen zu können. Ja, also das das das glaubt man irgendwie so als irgendwie, ich weiß nicht, wenn jetzt son Rails Entwickler kennt, vielleicht die Rooku oder so was, ne, wo Du einfach mal son eine Railsapplikationen deployen kannst, ohne irgendwie mal 'n Server gesehen zu haben oder so was. Das war mir immer fremd, ja? Das ist das war eine Welt, die die hab ich nicht verstanden. Ich fand die erstens teuer, ja? Zweitens dacht ich mir, wo wo läuft das Zeug eigentlich und wie kontrolliere ich das? Also ich war immer so auch, dass ich gesagt hab, na ja, natürlich muss ich die Hardware irgendwie verstehen, das Linux installieren und keine Ahnung was. Und für unsere Kunden war es dann halt für die großen, wichtigen Kunden, die das strategisch eingesetzt haben, war es halt auch 'n Thema. Und dann hast Du dann so 2 Wachstumskurven. Die eine Wachstumskurve ist sozusagen unser SARS Business, ja, also dieses Open Project läuft bei uns aufm Server, das war damals echt noch so, Amazon und tatsächlich mit all dem fiesen Überwachungskram, die man damals in der Start up Bubble so verwendet hat. Also Cookie, weiß nicht mehr, wie es heißt, also son son Ding, wo Du eigentlich zugucken kannst, wo Leute klicken, ja? Oder Google Analytics war da auch noch mit drauf, Hubspot, ja? Also lauter, fieses, übelstes Zeug, was Menschen komplett überwacht, ja? Das war alles dann auch noch so drin, die hatten gar nicht so das Bewusstsein dafür und das ist hat sich bei uns entwickelt tatsächlich, ja. Wir dachten also, man baut so heute SARSanwendung. Alle machen das so. Macht man so, gehört so. Man muss ja wissen, was da passiert. Aber letzten Endes waren wir halt auch zu blöd oder nicht fähig genug, all diese vielen Daten auszuwerten. Ne, ja. Jetzt ist ja Open Project, ich mein, es steht ja schon im Name. Mhm. Ja, es ist irgendwie quelloffen. Und wenn das als Fork von Redbine angefangen hat, dann ist ja auch klar, warum es offen ist, ne. Ich mein, wenn Du wenn Du Open Source da da nutzt, dann musst Du das ja irgendwie auch teilweise wieder selbst veröffentlichen so. Wann oder oder war das überhaupt jemals sone bewusste Entscheidung bei euch dann zu sagen, na ja, das ist Teil von unserer Identität, dass das halt eben offen ist und jeder damit rummachen kann oder war das eher son son son Nebeneffekt, weil es halt von Red Mine gekommen ist und gar nicht sone bewusste Entscheidung war so? Wie wie hat sich das entwickelt, dass wenn ich mir heute Ja, das ist die Open Project Webseite angucke, ne, da ist es ja schon sehr prominent so und ist ja auch cool. Ja. Aber ich kann mir auch vorstellen, dass das nicht immer so war. Nee, das ist der Weg dahin vielleicht ein ein nichtlinearer war. Nee, überhaupt nicht. Das ist son Emanzipationsprozess irgendwie. Also das da da muss ich einen Denken und einen einen einen einen auch son Wertekonzept hat sich dann hat sich dann entwickelt. Also ich versuch das, das mal son bisschen noch mal zu schreiben. Also wir sind ja da auf einmal in son Business reingekommen, weil wir Open Source einfach mal hernehmen konnten und damit einen Headstart hatten, ne. Wir konnten einfach dieses web min nehmen und hatten das schon einen völlig vollständig funktionierendes System, was wir nur erweitert haben. Das heißt, das Business wurde dadurch ermöglicht. Wir haben Open Source genommen, unser Business zu starten, unbewusst, ob es da funktioniert, ja. Das und das war halt also einen Zufall, aber das das das Du kannst jedes Open Source Framework oder oder Produkt nehmen und überlegen, dass Du da mit 'n Business startest, egal was, ja. Du legst dir gut. Weil ist aufwendig, sone Community aufzubauen und son son son Produkt zu pflegen, aber es geht und das ist krass. Du machst da 'n interessanten Punkt auf, ne? Weil also ich hab so was noch nie gemacht und ich glaube auch nicht, dass der Großteil der Open Source Community jemandem böse wäre, wenn man da son Open Source Projekt nimmt und dann versucht das irgendwie zu kommeralisieren, weil das ist ja Teil der Spielregeln, ne? Jeder kann deine Sachen nehmen und damit eben eben was machen. Aber gab's da son Moment, wo die, ich sag mal, bestehende Redmine Community vielleicht so auf euch drauf geguckt hat und gesagt hat so, boah, das ist aber nicht so nett, dass die hier unsere Arbeit nehmen und damit irgendwie Geld verdienen wollen? Ja, Geld verdienen wollten dort viele in dem Umfeld, die haben dann halt SARS Businesses drum gebaut und waren damit vielleicht 'n bisschen Schlaf von mir. Gängiger. Nicht aber unbedingt der Originalgründer. Von dem weiß ich nicht genau, wie er finanziert war. Das tut mir leid, da hab ich die Infos nicht. Dem würd ich das nicht unterstellen. Der hat einfach sein Ding gemacht, so was birgt er das für mich? Nee, also da ging's echt noch so Hardcore darum, dass man halt son Wettbewerbsvorteil hat und deswegen hat man das hinter seinem Server sozusagen gehostet, angeboten und gar nicht den Code mehr dann rausgerückt. Das war so das das Anfangsding. Und und man hat halt son Wettbewerbsvorteil, wo man schon 'n fertiges Produkt hat, was man auf Server stellen konnte, sozusagen dieses Freerider Konzept, ne, nennt man das son bisschen abwertend heutzutage, Freerider. Und ich wäre jetzt auch nicht happy, wenn Leute Open Rider immer folgen würden jetzt, ne. Und die waren bestimmt auch nicht happy darüber, dass wir gefolgt haben. Und wir haben auch nicht leichtfertig gefolgt, weil wir wussten, wie viel Arbeit der Trend steckt. Es ging halt nur nicht weiter. Wir konnten halt für unsere Kunden nicht die Features umsetzen, die sie brauchten, die sie uns gefragt haben. Und hatten wir halt die Wahl, ne? Und irgendwann haben wir halt gesagt, jetzt ist der Punkt, jetzt pauken wir. Es ist nicht leicht, wenn wir wochenlang, monatelang darüber diskutiert, wie wir das machen, wie wir's kompatibel behalten mit Redmine und so weiter, dass wir da zusammenfinden und gegenseitig ergänzen und so was, ja. Das das wir wollten dort nicht Red Mine irgendwie gegen Schienbein treten oder so was. Das war nicht unsere Absicht, aber wir wollten halt unsere unsere, ja, die die Kundenbedürfnisse befriedigen und das das ging einfach nicht mehr. Das war zu kompliziert. Jetzt ist ja, also Software Developer gibt's ja schon einige da draußen, auch wenn die Leute sagen, es gibt immer noch nicht genug. Und jede jede Firma steht ja son bisschen im Talentwettbewerb bei der Personalsuche miteinander. Ja. Die Tatsache, dass ihr da jetzt eben auf Open Source setzt. Ist das für euch gefühlt in dem Bereich, was Hiring angeht, ein Wettbewerbsvorteil oder 'n Wettbewerbsnachteil? Ganz klar Vorteil. Ganz klar Vorteil. Das und das merkt man auch in der Geschichte. Also früher war's für uns nicht so leicht, Personal zu finden, weil wir auch diese Open Source Karte gar nicht so ausgespielt haben. Ich bleib mal son bisschen Ja, vielleicht einmal zur Einordnung da vorher. Wie wie viele seid ihr grade so im Team, aktuell? Wir sind so über 50. Okay. Mhm. Über 50, ja. Können wir auch noch mal drüber reden. Die ja, die die die Früher war das sehr, sehr schwer. Rays Entwickler waren halt immer schon sehr gefragt von Anfang an. Die hatten halt diese Eigenschaften, dass sie ja wie Software Craftventship einfach Mhm. Gemeinsam als Entwicklercommunity so so haben, ne. Das war das war völlig klar. Rails Code kommt halt auch mit Tests daher, ja oder die Themen Themen wie Design, auch das ganze Design Thinking war damals auch total en vogue und so was. Also es das das kam irgendwie son, da gab's eine große Homogenität bei den Menschen dort, wie wie Software gebaut werden sollte. Und das war 'n sehr, sehr hohes Niveau, wenn's vergleichst mit, es bitte nicht falsch verstehen, aber typischerweise, wenn Leute mit PHP angefangen haben, dann haben die das so gemacht, wie ich damals Actionscript 3 gelernt hat, ja. Also das das das das da war kein kein Craftsonship dahinter am Anfang. Die haben natürlich auch Frameworks entwickelt und haben dann nachgezogen. Aber die Kultur von von Anfang an sehr saubere, Architekturen aufzubauen im Sinne so wie ein Schreiner einen Tisch zusammenbaut nach den gleichen Verfahren und den gleichen Methoden und Qualitätsstandards, damit nicht einfach mal dort wo eine Schraube reinkommen soll, was weiß ich nicht, eine eine Nagel reingeheimer, sondern da muss eine Schraube rein, fertig, ja. Das das das war halt bei Rails auch ja, ich glaub, stärker vertreten als bei anderen, weil gab's ja noch JTVI und so was, also die großen Java Enterprise Edition. Das war so zu abgehoben. Das war nicht genug. Will sagen, diese Entwickler waren halt sehr gefragt und es war schwer, die zu bekommen. Das heißt, eigentlich haben wir sie an der Uni abgeworben und ausgebildet damals und oder an der Uni schon rein angeworben und und und ausgebildet. Und mit der Zeit hat sich's dann aber verändert. Also die unsere Geschichte ging ja dann noch so weiter, dass dann halt der, dass dieses Arbeiten für Geld, für eine Open Source Code irgendwann auch dafür gesorgt hat, dass immer mehr Open Source veröffentlicht wurde und Leute uns einfach installiert haben, unsere Software und dann zu uns kamen und dann Hilfe brauchten. Und dann haben wir halt dort 'n Produkt drauf gebaut, nämlich eben grade diese Subscriptions, Support, Hilfe, ne und so weiter. Und das ist das, die Kurve ist halt schneller gewachsen als die SARS Produkt. Ergänzt sich aber interessanterweise supertoll, liebe 2 Sachen, SARS und und On Premise Produkte, damit die hin- und her tauschen kann. Das kann ich auch noch mal erzählen. Supercoole Sache. Und dann haben wir halt auch tatsächlich angefangen, das das zu verstehen, ne, das das besser zu verstehen. Und dann haben wir angefangen, alle alle unnötige Cookies runterzuschmeißen. Wir haben keinen Cookie Banner bei uns auf der Webseite, aber wir halt nix tracken. Wir haben keinen Google Analytics mehr, keinen Hubspot mehr. Wir nehmen alles so, Open Source Software für die Sachen, die man so braucht. Kein Google Analytics hab ich schon gesagt, ne. Und und damit kommt dann halt auch irgendwie auf son Bewusstsein, so sone Art digitales, ja veganes Leben so, ja, also digital vegan. Das ist son bisschen, man kann sagen, okay, man kann sich die Hose auch mit dabei sein anziehen, aber irgendwie macht das Spaß, ja. Es ist irgendwie cool. Es ist das Richtige, das so zu machen, ja. Das ist nicht cool, Leuten dabei zu zugucken, wie sie Texte eingeben, ja. Das ist nicht schön, das ist das ist Privatbereich, das ist nicht richtig, das zu tun. Und Leuten denen die Möglichkeit zu geben, dass sie im Privaten arbeiten können, dass dass sie auf ihren eigenen Rechnungen arbeiten können. Und ja, das begeistert halt tatsächlich auch Entwickler dann, die sehen dann, okay, Open Source, wow, alles, was ich tue, bleibt stirbt ja gar nicht damit, wenn mein Ruby and Rails Start-up irgendwie die Finanzierungsrunde ausgeht, sondern ich kann's weiterverwenden, dass das das ist für viele viel wert, ja. Also es ist für viele nicht nur wert, a da zu arbeiten, sondern, ja, wenn Du von Shopify kommst oder so was, bist auch bereit dafür, einen, weiß ich nicht, dessen 'n kleineres Gehalt erzeugt, dass den Shopify sehr, sehr hohe Gehälter, wenn sie dafür halt an etwas sinnstiftendem Arbeiten können. Und haben wir häufiger gehört und macht mich sehr stolz, ja. Als jemand, der von Shopify gekommen ist, kann ich das bestätigen? Ah, okay, cool. Bist Du in dieser krassen Wachstumsblase dort reingekommen, wo die so megafett hochgezogen haben und keiner mehr wusste, worum sie eigentlich im Laden sind und was sie arbeiten sollen? Also ich hab, so als kurze Randnotiz, ich hab glaube ich so beides erlebt. Ich hab das das Ende von diesem Wachstumsboom, der so auch mit Corona kam, ne? Hab ich mitbekommen Und dann den Anfang von dieser in großen Techfirmen werden jetzt einfach alle Leute rausgeschmissen Ah, klar. Ballert. So, ja? Also ich hab im Prinzip so einen einen Tidenhup einmal mitgemacht. Mhm. Es war war ganz interessant so. Ja, aber das nur Mega. Jetzt, weil weil Du grade auch so die die Rails Architektur und so das Mindset irgendwie in der Community angesprochen hast. Rails hat sich ja in den letzten 10 Jahren auch schon sehr verändert, ja? Also Ja. Ich glaub, also das klingt vielleicht zu viel. Wenn man heute Raids anguckt, sieht man immer noch das Raids auch von damals so, aber wieso sich das ganze Ökosystem auch drumherum einfach entwickelt hat, ne? Da gab's irgendwie mal so den Hype hin zu Single Page Applications, Oh ja. Und und überhaupt so. Mhm. Und dann war ja Rails mit 1 der ersten, die so gesagt haben, na ja, wir kommen von diesem Server Side Rendering und wir wollen das irgendwie auch wieder weiter nutzen oder wieder wieder forcieren. Da kamen dann so Sachen wie wie Hotwire und irgendwie Live Components und irgendwie so was alles dazu. Nehmt ihr so was dann mit oder sagt ihr einfach, na ja, unsere Kunden sind vielleicht jetzt auch eher größere Konzerne und müssen nicht gleich jeden Hype irgendwie mitmachen und wir setzen da lieber mal was aus oder wie wie verhält sich das? Ja, das ist eine saugute Frage. Also wir haben dann, ich hatte ja erzählt, dass wir da so versucht hatten, über besseres UI uns aufm Markt zu positionieren als das enterprisefigere und und und userfreundlichere Alternative zu Redmine quasi. Und das war genau das, was Du grade beschrieben hast. Die Leute haben mal irgendwie erwartet, dass Du son Rich Frontend baust. Das war so dieses Facebook Feeling, ne. Weißt Du, was Du das Facebook zum ersten Mal verwendet hast im Gegensatz zu StudiVZ? Also es war irgendwie der Oh. Muss man für die für die Jüngeren auch wieder StudiVZ erklären, weiß ich nicht. Oder Lokalisten, ja. Das Oh, jetzt hören Sie mal, wer kennt wen? So jetzt, jetzt holen wir mal die ganzen alten Netzwerke raus, ja. Genau. War auf einmal so eine Erwartung dahinter, dass Du halt auf Knopf drückst, dann dass sich die Caption sozusagen des Knopfes verändert und solche solche Niceskeiten, ja, dass ein Spinner aufm Knopf sich dreht und so was. Genau, und da kam dann diese auf einmal diese von diesen großen Konzernen aufgebauten Frameworks Angela, JS und so. Die haben wir dann eingesetzt und haben auch über das gehört ja, boah, Du musst hier dieses dieses Front and bauen Rails wird eigentlich zu sonem Art API Backend. Haben wir gemacht, jahrelang probiert, haben's nie geschafft, zu 'ner Single Payage Application zu kommen, weil's Redman halt so krass groß schon war und Open Projekt damit auch groß war und man kann nicht mal eben irgendwie alles umbauen. Man muss das API bauen, muss das Frontend bauen. Ja, das ist aber eigentlich letzten Endes, der der der der was ist der, ja, der der Zustand 1 Anwendung wurde sehr, sehr unklar, ne? Was ist was ist, welche Daten hast Du im Backend? Welche hast Du im Frontend? Führt eigentlich dazu, dass Du im Frontend die ganze Zeit irgendwie alle Daten sich jetzt sicherheitshalber nachlädst und aktualisierst, weil Du eigentlich nicht weißt, was im Frontend so los ist. Das Frontend Code war, obwohl wir da English as und dann Englishier und so weiter gemacht haben, wurde der irgendwie immer fieser, immer schlimmer. Und der Vorteil und es wurd auch nicht schneller Diese Zunge würden behaupten, das liegt vielleicht nicht an der Tatsache, obwohl ihr Angela benutzt habt, sondern weil ihr Angela benutzt habt. Weiß ich nicht, wahrscheinlich gab's damals noch nicht und so was. Vielleicht wäre das 'n bisschen dichter dran gewesen. Ich will auch nicht zu doll drüber jaulen. Wir haben damit, was wir dadurch bekommen haben, ist 'n extremst vielfältig einsetzbares API. Ja, alles, was Du übers Frontend mit Arbeitspaket, was unsere machen kannst, das kannst Du übers API machen. Du kannst sogar dir die das das Schema zu einem Formular, mit dem Du halt dein vollfrei konfiguriertes Arbeitspaket sozusagen aufbauen möchtest, weil die ganzen Felder, die Du in sonem Arbeitspaket tracken möchtest, kannst hast ja eigentlich deinen eigenen Customfilds und so was. Dazu brauchst Du ja irgendwie 'n Schema und musst 'n Formular bauen können und das API gibt dir diese Informationen. Was sind erlaubte Werte auf dem Feld, ja oder so was. Wir haben extrem wichtiges API dadurch bekommen, aber wir hatten halt auch so was wie dann 'n Frontend Team und und das nicht von dem Team, das den ganzen Rest gemacht hat. Irgendwie pragmatisch, wir waren aber auch immer noch Arbeiter, alle Admin Settings und so weiter, ganz klassisch, backend gerendert und so was. Jedenfalls, da gab's dann immer dieses Ding, okay, Du brauchst 'n Backend brauchst Du eine gewisse Logik, Du brauchst im Frontend eine Logik, da musst Du das dafür, was sehr, sehr war, musstest Du dafür erst mal spezifizieren aus 2 Teams, die aufeinander irgendwie warten, sich blockieren und so weiter. Es war ekelhaft. Es hat keinen Spaß gemacht. Also als jemand, der einfach etwas durchziehen möchte, dass ein ein Mensch Verantwortung hat, von vorne bis hinten ein Feature durch durchzuhauen, auch glücklich zu sein als Entwickler. Also Selbstwirksamkeit ist ja kein kleines Ding für uns. Also es, Du musst ja doch irgendwie auch fertig werden und dich drüber freuen, was Du gebaut hast und mit mit dieser dieser Aufteilung zwischen Front- und dem Backend Team, das war irgendwie frustrierend. Das war nicht schön, hat keinen Spaß gemacht. Und ja, und dann kam halt genau, was Du gesagt hast, Hotwire wieder und und bei uns spitzten sich die Ohren, weil es hat sich so angefühlt wie, oh, damit könnten wir wieder so bauen wie damals so. 2005, 2006. Jeder, eine Entwickler kann wieder ein ein ein ein Feature von vorne bis hinten ohne entwickeln, auch Einfluss aufs Produkt selbst nehmen, auf die Architektur nehmen und gibt nicht so viel. Und auch der Softwarestack ist dann kleiner, sodass 'n Entwickler die noch lernen kann und aktualisieren kann. Also wir sind sehr, sehr stolz darauf, dass unser Softwarestack mit Trades immer mitgewachsen ist, immer aktualisiert worden ist. Dass wir an den Jams, die wir verwenden, also sind da so die, dass wir die halt auch mitpflegen, dass wir rein erstellen und so weiter, dass wir die mitentwickeln. Das ist halt, das das kannst Du nicht so Also ich versteh, was Du meinst. Die die Die klassischen die klassischen Ruby Entwickler, die freuen sich natürlich, dass die jetzt wieder quasi von vorne bis hinten son son Feature ounen können und und und durchziehen können so, ja? Und ich glaub auch, was Du gesagt hast, so diese diese Selbstwirksamkeit ist 'n super wichtiger Punkt, was so 'n Developer Experience und satisfaction irgendwie angeht, ja? So jeder arbeitet lieber an 'nem Projekt, das er selber anfangen und abschließen kann, anstatt irgendwie nur son kleines Rädchen in soner großen Maschine zu sein, ne? Ja. Aber ihr hattet ja jetzt schon 'n Frontend Team. Und was habt ihr denn mit dem gemacht? Weil wenn Du jetzt, ne, von heut auf morgen da ankommst und sagst so, hey, diese Entwicklung oder diese diese Organisation getrennt, Frontend und Backend, das machen wir jetzt nicht mehr. Und die die Ruby Leute, die eben noch das Backend gemacht haben, die können jetzt wieder von vorne bis hinten alles machen. Du, lieber Angular Entwickler, also war das mehr so, da ist die Tür oder hier ist son dickes Buch, Ruby zu lernen? Wie wie seid ihr da so organisatorisch mit den Leuten umgegangen? Ja, ist ganz witzig. Wir hatten gar nicht so ein großes Frontend Team und die Leute, die dort waren, das muss vielleicht auch noch mal Ich muss dann eine, ich hatte schon vorhin dieses Kulturthema angesprochen, ne? Rails hat eine sehr homogene Kultur. Und wenn Du dann halt 'n Frontend Team hast, was Angela macht und so weiter, das ist nicht so homogen. Das und das passt auch nicht unbedingt so direkt auf das auf das auf die die Rails Kultur. Das heißt, die waren auch immer son bisschen, wir waren immer mehrheitlich Rails Entwickler. Die die waren auch son bisschen isolierter und da gab's dann auch manchmal son bisschen Kulturclash. Nicht schlimm, wir kamen da irgendwie schon klar miteinander. Aber eigentlich waren auch viele Entwickler dann so, dass sie dann halt auch mal Angela gelernt haben oder megafrustriert waren. Und das heißt, als sie dann gesagt haben, wir stoppen jetzt die Weiterentwicklung von Angela Sachen, wir bauen investieren da nicht weiter, sondern wir bauen das eigentlich zurück und basierend auf den, oh, das ist das das Designsystems von GitHub Primer, ersetzen wir eigentlich diese Komponenten durch Standardkomponenten von ja, die auch bei GitHub eingesetzt wird. Was für GitHub funktioniert, funktioniert für uns auch, war so die Idee, ne. Und das das das hat nicht das hat nicht geknarscht. Die Leute hatten Angst, das hatten schon Sorge, ob dann wie das wie sonen Schwenk eigentlich funktionieren kann. Und da waren wir in sonem in in immer sone in der Schweiz gemietet. Grüße gehen raus und ungleich. Und dort konnten wir alle mal zusammenführen und alle 'n ganz lange Liste machen mit allen Zweifel und Sorgen, was passieren würde, wenn wir Angela stoppen würden und auf Hardware umsteigen. Und dann sind wir die Liste haben wir aufgeschrieben und eine nach der anderen abgearbeitet. Und als dann nur noch irgendwie 4 Prozent auch offen war, haben wir gesagt, let's go, wir machen das. Und ja mega, mega. Also die Leute, die vorher Frontend gemacht haben und Backend und so weiter, die freuen sich halt tierisch drüber, dass sie jetzt Frontend da halt in machen können. Komponenten bauen, Komponenten Framework von GitHub übernehmen mit Primer, schöne Komponenten bauen, die die die gut aussehen und die dann auch zum Teil dann wieder von GitHub übernommen worden sind, ja, weil die halt auch gesehen haben, dass wir da mit Engineering Standards halt arbeiten und das macht einfach Spaß, ja. Das ist ja. Wenn wir schon über Engineering Culture sprechen, Du hast grade das ein Offsite angesprochen, wo sone Entscheidung getroffen wurde. Ihr seid 100 Prozent remote organisiert, ne? Hab ich Ja. Glaube ich, Genau. Nur zwischen den Zeilen gelesen. Ja, wir haben sone Briefkastenfirma in in sonem Co Working in Berlin. Dort haben wir auch 'n Büro angemietet, wo ich glaub 2, 3 Leute sitzen, die in Berlin wohnen und manche können auch noch mal reinschneiden, aber ja, man braucht halt eine Adresse, ne. Ansonsten sind wir über die ganze Welt verteilt. Also ich ich bin in Spanien, haben Leute in Frankreich, England, Rumänien, Ukraine jetzt tatsächlich auch, weil wir die supporten stark, also ist, sind super Leute, aber halt auch, weil wir denken, dass es gut ist, wenn da Leute wenn wir dem was mitgeben können und die unterstützen können. Und in Kenia, Nairobi, in Nepal arbeiten wir zusammen. Also überall dort, wo sich Leute für das Thema, was wir bauen, nämlich Open Project interessieren Und ob wir's draus machen wollen. Ich stell mir das am schwierigsten für diese eine Person in Nepal vor. Als jemand, der auch schon mal in 'nem sehr verteilten Team gearbeitet hat, ist ja, also ne, örtliche Distribution ist das eine, Zeitzonendistribution ist noch mal so das andere. Wie oder ist es ist das eine Challenge für euch? Ja, muss dazu sagen, dass das Team in Nepal, das ist ein, sind nicht direkt wir, das ist ein Unternehmen, mit dem wir zusammenarbeiten und die machen für uns die Nextcloud Integration. Also die App dazu, die bei NextInextcloud läuft. PHP Code ist nicht unser Gebiet. Und da haben wir dann eher son, ja, son son son son Supplier Verhältnis, wobei wir mit denen schon so lange zusammenarbeiten, dass das irgendwie man nicht mehr so richtig fühlt, ne. Das die gehören schon irgendwie dazu. Okay. Genau und das ist 'n Problem natürlich, aber weil die halt sowieso unabhängig aufgestellt sind, ist an der Stelle nicht ganz so schlimm. Aber wir müssen schon unsere Termine jetzt sehr, sehr früh am Morgen machen, ja. Ja, also ich ich war mal in 'nem Team, wo wir aufgeteilt waren zwischen Deutschland, Irland, der amerikanischen Ostküste, der amerikanischen Westküste und Australien Boah. Und quasi irgendjemand eigentlich immer lieber geschlafen hätte, anstatt in irgendwelchen Meetings zu setzen. Ja. Egal, zu welcher Uhrzeit man das macht. Ja, da gibt's auch unterschiedliche Kulturen, ne. Da gibt's Leute, die sind so voll auf Digital Nomad Kultur. Kultur, wo es dann eigentlich heißt, alle Kommunikation muss asynchron sein, irgendwie textbasiert. Das haben wir nicht, ne. Das Nee, wir hatten das damals auch nicht. So, wir haben schon versucht, viel auch synchron zu machen und hatten dann das Glück, dass zum Beispiel ich hier in Deutschland eine Nuteule bin und unser Kollege in Australien superfrüh aufgestanden ist, weil er gerne noch surfen gehen wollen würde, bevor er dann richtig mitm Arbeiten anfängt. Also es war richtig klischeemäßig, ja? Ja. Und dann haben wir halt immer sonen guten Slot gefunden, der für alle irgendwie passt. Aber das hat schon auch sone gewisse Latenz halt eingeführt, ne? Weil Du machst 'n Purry Quest und bis der vielleicht mal bei der richtigen Person irgendwie hochgekommen ist, da gehen halt mal so 24 Stunden, rotieren sozusagen einmal einmal durch. Genau. Und dann machst Du dann eine Veränderung, irgendwie kommt dein Review zurück und dann dauert's wieder 24 Stunden und so weiter. Und das ist son son Rhythmus, der macht einfach nicht so viel Spaß, ne. Es ist das ist frustrierend, wenn Du einfach 'n kleines Ding reinbekommen möchtest in den Chor und dann dauert das irgendwie lange. Also es, Wir versuchen da schon Möglichkeiten zu haben, drück auf den Knopf, da rufst Du an und dann machst Du kurz eine Besprechung per Programming, was auch immer Du grade brauchst. Und diese gemeinsamen Offsides, ist das son Werkzeug, das ihr häufiger nutzt oder war das jetzt sone Ausnahmesituation, weil ihr eben kritische Entscheidungen treffen wolltet? Wie wie versucht ihr so dieses Remote Thema son bisschen anzugehen? Ja, das ist ganz witzig, weil wenn wir jetzt so remote sind, Du siehst ja immer nur dieses dieses Rechteck von jemandem, ne, und weiß gar nicht, ob der Mensch eine Hose an hat oder nicht. Du weißt auch, also ich fand das damals bei Shopify so krass, wenn ich dann Leute das erste Mal in echt getroffen hab, so Größe. Größe ist son Thema, das kann man unglaublich falsch einschätzen. Und dann stand ich das erste Mal vor 'nem Kollegen, mit dem ich schon, weiß ich nicht, Dutzende Male hunderte Stunden verbracht hab so, ja? Und er ist 3 Köpfe kleiner, also ich denk mir so, ich hätte dich niemals erkannt, wenn Du mir auf der Straße begegnet wärst und ich hätte nicht wüsste, dass dass das Du bist, so, ne. Vielleicht hätte ich ja oder weniger ernst genommen, wenn ich vielleicht das Tor gewusst. Na ja, so nee nee, ist schon echt witzig. Also genau das passiert. Also wenn man das einmal im Jahr holen wir die ganze Firma zusammen, dann machen wir wirklich so 3 Tage lang kein Programm, außer halt so Teambuilding Programms segeln gehen und Geocaching und Spiele spielen und alles Mögliche, also wirklich explizit einfach nur gemeinsam abhängen. Und das ist schon sehr, sehr interessant, wenn Du zum ersten Mal halt wirklich die Menschen dann vor dir hast, die dann im letzten Jahr eingestellt worden sind oder so was, ja. Das das unglaublich wichtig, ne. Da da da zehrt die Organisation sehr erfahren, dort gemeinsam halt eher gespielt und gelacht und gealbert zu haben, ja. Ist ja, sehr wichtig. Da kommen die aus aus aus aus den USA, aus aus damals auch Panama und von über räumen wir die Leute her. Das ist eine und das andere, was wir halt auch merken, ist, wenn Du son bisschen kompliziertere Sachen hast, wenn wir halt einen Hackathon haben oder so was, ne, das das setzt immer ganz eine Energien frei. Wenn wir Menschen zusammenführen, unterschiedliche Disziplinen zusammenbringen, halt kürzester Zeit, was weiß ich, für die französische Regierung eine Integration zu bauen mit dem deutschen Open Desk, das Open Desk und dem französischen, LaSuuite im Hackathon, dann dann spürst Du da auch eine ganz andere Energie, als wenn Du immer nur Ribbonhood arbeitest. Also diese Energie, davon zehren dann auch die die Beziehungen und das Vertrauen und aber auch der Stress, den man gemeinsam so durchlebt. Das Vertrauen, wir schaffen das gemeinsam, das ist unglaublich wichtig, solche Momente zu haben. Wie oft im Jahr macht ihr, also hast Du schon gesagt, ne, so Offsite macht ihr Eimer und diese Hackathons, so an größeren Sachen zu arbeiten. Wie oft passiert so was? Ja, noch nicht oft genug da tatsächlich. Also abgesehen von diesem einen offsite haben wir noch so Sachen gemacht, das nennen wir Passion Time, also ein bis 2 Wochen lang darf jeder an den Dingen arbeiten, die sie für, weiß ich nicht, für sie Passion haben, ja. Und dann Abseits von eurem Projekt auch oder an eurem Projekt? Schon an unserem Projekt, aber halt abseits der offiziellen Roadmap, ne. Okay. Mhm. Und da passieren coole Sachen, was weiß ich, wir Comanlein Toolkonto die Ecke. Es kommt auf einmal irgend einen Back up Feature, was uns auf DevOps Leute die ganze Zeit haben folgten, was so noch nicht gab. Notification Center bei uns ist da da geboren. War man jetzt hier einfach dann auch mal Europe, die man sonst bestimmt nicht hat, ja, pausen kann, mal durchatmen und einfach mal neu denken, ja. Es gibt auch so Themen, die sind schwierig und deswegen schaffen sie's nicht so leicht auf die Roadmap. Man muss sie einfach mal knacken und dafür braucht man halt Menschen, die in unterschiedlichen Projekten eigentlich ja, nicht gefangen, aber ne. Also verplant sind, die braucht man halt mal dafür, so schwierige Sachen in der Architektur zu knacken. Und wenn Du dann wirklich mal so ein bis 2 Wochen Zeit dafür hast, dann schaffst Du ziemlich viel. Und das macht man dann auch auch dann zum zum Teil dann halt auch ja, vor Ort, ne, damit wo man sich dann trifft. Cool. Das ist aber so ein ein, zweimal, also insgesamt trifft man sich so ein, 2, dreimal, je nachdem, was für eine Rolle Du im im im in der Firma hast. Ich treff viel mehr Leute als in meiner Rolle als andere, aber wir versuchen, dass die Menschen sich schon sehen zwei-, dreimal im Jahr. Und die sind, die wollen das auch. Ja, versteh ich. Du hast eben schon gesagt, dass Du in Spanien sitzt. Mhm. Das ist ja vielleicht auch noch mal son ganz interessanter Schwenk. Wie und warum bist Du nach Spanien gekommen? Ja, also meine Frau ist aus Spanien. Ich hab sie kennengelernt, weil mein Mitbewohner in Berlin, der hatte Erasmus in Finnland gemacht und hat sie dort kennengelernt. Dann haben wir seinen Geburtstag in Barcelona gefeiert und sie kam dann mal eben aus Mallorca rüber und haben uns kennengelernt. Und dann hatten wir eine lange Fernbeziehung. Sie kam dann nach nach Berlin und irgendwann haben wir gesagt, och, wir können doch auch nach Mallorca gehen. Und das war zu der Zeit, wo's in Mallorca, da wurde grade der erste Co Coworking Center gegründet, ne. Und das da gab's noch keine Thai Restaurants, da gab's noch keine Burgerläden, da gab's noch keine Hipster Cafés auf auf in Palma, ja. Da gab's doch, da wurden grade Fahrradwege gebaut. Und genau und das das war mein Weg nach nach Spanien, weil wir halt auch schon remote arbeiten konnten. Das wär jetzt nämlich meine Frage gewesen so. Also in Spanien oder auf Mallorca zu sein, wenn da gerade die Infrastruktur entsteht, ist ja das eine, aber trotzdem bedingt es ja quasi einen Job hier in Deutschland, den Du quasi mitnehmen kannst oder eine Firma, für die das halt auch irgendwie wie wie funktioniert. Und Du hast, ihr wart da aber schon remote? Nee, eigentlich noch nicht, aber ich hab das son bisschen so als Speerspitze gemacht. Ich hab sogar auch Leute aus Berlin, da hab ich denen das Angebot gemacht, ey so, kommt kommt doch doch mal vorbei nach Mallorca, arbeiten wir hier zusammen. Das haben auch Leute angenommen. Da war so irgendwie ja, der der der Spaß, dass man halt in Flip Flops zur Arbeit geht und so was, ne. Das so diese diese Vorstellung. Aber letzten Endes hat das gar nicht so sehr gezogen, ne. Die Menschen wollen eigentlich dort sitzen, wo sie sich wohlfühlen, wo ihre Familien sind in der Regel. Und Spanien als Ort zum Arbeiten hat sich gar nicht so durchgesetzt so. Jetzt jetzt so langsam kommen werden mehr Leute aus der Firma und wollen mal halt auch mal das Ausland ausprobieren und gehen dann halt nach Spanien. Deswegen hab ich auch eine spanische Gesellschaft gegründet unter Subgesellschaft. Aber es ist jetzt nicht son Ding, ja, man könnte erwarten irgendwie so Sonnenschein und so weiter, das ist son Strand, das das Leute mehr nutzen würden, aber ist gar nicht so. Die Leute wollen ihre Familien und ihr ihr Umgebung haben. Und wenn Du wenn Du vor den ganzen Hipstern in Spanien angekommen bist, War der erste Hipster, keine Ahnung, der Ufer Hipster. Dann hast Du ja sicherlich noch eine ganz anderes Ökosystem, eine ganz andere Community vorgefunden, wie es jetzt ist. Ja, also wenn man heute an an Mallorca denkt, dann denkt man auch an Demonstrationen und zu viel Tourismus und Gentrifizierung für die Einheimischen und sowas. Wie wie hast Du das mitbekommen? Ist das was, was sich wirklich eher so dem dem Tourismus gegenüber entlädt oder bekommt man das so als, ich will nicht sagen digitaler Nomade, aber Du bist jetzt schon lang genug da, ne, aber als quasi jemand, der auf Mallorca wohnt, aber quasi international arbeitet, kriegt man das auch son bisschen mit oder gar ab? Mhm. Da soll ich das wie soll ich das sagen? Also erst mal nein. Erst mal kurz, dass ich würd sagen nein. Das das das gilt natürlich in den deutschen Medien, weil Mallorca so als siebzehntes Bundesland irgendwie immer so getiteliert wird, irgendwie wichtig ist. In den Medien wird das 'n bisschen höher gepusht als es ist. Es gibt's aber, ja. Und es gibt auch 'n Grund. Also es ist, Mallorca hat seit den Fünfzehn- und Sechzigerjahren hat's 'n Tourismusboom und das ist die die das Epizentrum für eigentlich alle großen Tourismusunternehmen der Welt, ne. Die Karibik wurde zugepflastert von Unternehmen aus Mallorca. Und hier sind große Tech Techunternehmen, die halt im im im Travel, im im Hospitality Fluggesellschaften, die haben oftmals ihre, heißt das auf Spanisch, Haupt Hauptsitz haben sie hier in in in in auf Mallorca. Das heißt, es gibt eine eine eine große Industrie und das Tourismus und die Menschen sind's gewohnt, dass Leute aus allen Herren, Ländern, gerade Deutschland nach Mallorca kommen. Die Deutschen glauben halt oftmals, die Leute werden alle Deutsch sprechen, aber ist halt nicht so. Du bist hier mitten in Spanien. Das ist, Du bist in Spanien, hier gibt's bei ja. Hier gibt's mallyequinisches Essen und es gibt vor allem die mallyequinische Sprache und das wissen viele Leute auch nicht, ja. Das ist 'n wichtiges Ding. Katalanen, mit ja, die eigenen Dialekten auch paar eigenen Wörtern. Es gibt eine eigene mallokinische Kultur und richtig. Also das ist, das heißt, es gibt jede Menge Industrie. Es gibt hier, Palma ist eine kleine Großstadt, ja. Da gibt's 'n Metro, da gibt es alles Mögliche, was man sich vorstellen kann, auch son bisschen gechillter, ne. Son Regierungssitz hier für die für die Autonomie. Was es halt nicht so klar gab damals, dass so was man schon aus Berlin son bisschen dann zu dem Zeitpunkt dann losging, diese ganze Start-up. Wie soll man's sagen? Son Lifestyle oder halt auch dieses dieses Verständnis davon, das war nicht so gegeben, obwohl halt Unternehmen gegründet. Ich war der erste erste Mieter im ersten Co Working Center, ja, ja, so. Und hab dann denen Leuten auch geholfen, dann das Co Working Center so zum Erfolg zu bringen, weil sie etwas auch nicht wussten, ne. Die hat uns ausprobiert. Und genau und dann, weil's einfach so gefehlt hat, dann gab's eine Tech Community, da waren 4 Leute, die haben das angefangen. Ich war dann irgendwie dann der Fünfte dann da drin und dann wurd's dann immer größer, sodass wir dann, das hieß dann Beta Beers, wo wir halt eben gegenseitig sonst irgendwie Sachen erzählt haben, die wir cool finden als Nerds. Und dann wurde es immer größer und die Themen wurden bereit. Da gab's auch bei meinem Mallorca JS und ich hab dann irgendwann auch Mallorca Start ups mitgegründet mit meinen guten Freunden und haben dann versucht, irgend sone Art Start up Community aufzubauen. Das waren dann irgendwie so Meetups und so von irgendwie 1200 Leute sich dann irgendwie subscribend haben. Also da da passierte schon etwas. Letzten Endes hat's mein Interesse halt gar nicht so, ja, ich weiß nicht, das ist zwar nicht mehr son Funding und so was, das verfolg ich gar nicht mehr, ne. Also bei Open Protect, die sind geboostrapt und haben kein Funding und deswegen, ich find dieses ganze Start up Spiel letzten Endes gar nicht mehr so interessant und spannend. Und ist diese Szene trotzdem noch was, was passiert oder hat sich das mittlerweile auch son bisschen abgeebbt? Also Du bist ja nicht deswegen dahin. Du hast es ja quasi nur organisch beobachtet und mitbekommen oder so. Ja, von mitgemacht, ne, weil ich Bock drauf hatte, Leute zu treffen, die irgendwie nicht tickten, ne. Ja. Aber wenn ich jetzt heute quasi frisch dazustoßen würde, ich sag jetzt hier, oh hier, dieses Bayern, das ist mir viel zu kalt, ja. Ich will jetzt irgendwie auch nach nach Spanien und der W-Land hat gesagt, so, Palma ist cool. Was was würde mich da erwarten heute? Aber ich glaube, da fragst Du tatsächlich den Falschen, weil ich mir halt so zurückgezogen habe. Ich bin den ganzen Tag irgendwie 8 Stunden in Videokonferenzen und ich hab mein mein meinen sozialen Austausch mit der Rest der Welt. Bin gar nicht so am Laufen. Ich weiß, dass die dieselben Akteure wie damals es immer wieder noch noch mal neu probieren, irgendwie Business Angels Club und so weiter. Es gibt natürlich jede Menge Co Working Center. Ich würde vermuten, dass Du da schnell in Kontakt kommst mit Leuten, aber keine Ahnung, ich treff jetzt eigentlich die spannenden Kontakte eher beim Sport, beim Laufen, beim Krafttraining und so was, die dann einfach hier direkt nebenan irgendwie in Straße weiterwohnen und irgendwie krasses AI Zeug machen mit 'nem 1 in Architekturbranche oder so was. Und dann aufm Spielplatz mit Kindern und so weiter haben wir dann halt unsere Unterhaltungen dazu. Wo muss wissen, ob welcher Teil der Insel man sich sozusagen dann niederlässt, wo man halt Leute dann, ich sagt man, in der Sauna trifft oder so. Aber Du kommst superschnell in Kontakt. Also das ist sehr, sehr easy, dass Du da auf deine Kosten kommst. Willst Du das Berliner Start up Leben haben? Ja, dann bist Du ja vielleicht nicht ganz richtig, ja. Cool. Ich glaub, das Berliner Start up Leben brauch ich auch gar nicht so. Okay. Dann vielleicht 2 Fragen, die ich immer zum Schluss stelle. Die erste Frage ist, wenn Du deinem sehr viel jüngeren Ich das grade erst anfängt und vielleicht grade an der Uni den ersten Job wieder geschmissen hat, einen einen wichtigen Rat geben könntest, was würdest Du ihm mitgeben? Ich glaub, also das einerseits ist der Riecher für dafür, dass das Wichtigste ist, dass dass Du eine Sprache in deinem Team auf baust geteilt wird, also dass dass man sich versteht, dass ich halt am Anfang des Studiums schon hatte, dass man das nicht ausm Auge verliert, weil darin ist die Kraft vom vom Teamwork drin. Das würd ich den Leuten sagen. Ich würde auch sagen, Teamwork ist immer viel, viel cooler als alleine zu arbeiten. Ich hab das auch mal eine Zeit lang gemacht, hab leider gearbeitet, da lernt man viel, aber hat eine ganz andere Power. Man ist einfach viel befriedigender. Ego hinten anstellen und sich aufs Ziel fokussieren und auch Bedürfnisse anderer ernster nehmen und nicht nur seinen Kopf durchsetzen. Ich glaub, das wäre wichtig, dass dass dass man halt auch mal agree to to disagree, dass es als Team wichtiger ist, als nur sein eigenes Ding durchzuziehen. Dass es 'n Wert hat, gemeinsam an etwas dranzubleiben, auch wenn man nicht immer der derselben Meinung ist. Das ist ja, wenn man sein Ego bisschen im Check hat, sich mal hinterfragt, ist das das ist gut. Also ich hab Respekt vor Leuten, die Kehrtwindung machen können, die Meinungen ändern können, ja, die das einfach auch mal hinnehmen können, dass man anderer Meinung ist und im Team hast Du's immer, Grade bei Korrekturen, ja. Was ist die eine Frage, die ich dich noch nicht gefragt hab, wo Du dich, weiß ich nicht, super vorbereitet hast oder unbedingt gerne drüber sprechen wolltest und jetzt dachte ich, oh, jetzt sitzen wir anderthalb Stunden. Und der hat mich nicht einmal zu dem Thema x y was gefragt. Ich wollte doch unbedingt darüber sprechen. Ich hab ich Das ist jetzt deine Chance. Ja, ich hab das 'n anderen Hut auf. Ich bin ich bin ja zwar CTO von Open Project und bin da irgendwie für verantwortlich, aber ist eine Komponente im open Desk, 'n souveränen Arbeitsplatz der öffentlichen Verwaltung vom Zendis, also vom Bund. Und da sind wir eine Komponente von 8, da ist zum Beispiel Element der der Chat, ne. Ist das Für das Matrix Ding, ne. Matrix, genau, super. Ja. 'N cooles Zeug, Open Exchange für Mail und Kalender, Next Cloud, 'n richtig großes boomendes Unternehmen, ist dafür falz zuständig. XWiki aus Frankreich, die machen halt im Prinzip ja, schon ewig lange machen sie sie Wiki Software und und sind Konkurrent von Confluence. Wir alle zusammen machen da diesen open Desk. Und was mir da bei dem Thema halt sehr, sehr wichtig ist, ist, dass man nichts sagt, okay, open Desk ist jetzt 'n gemein, also ich hab eine gemeinsames Look empfehlen, gemeinsam Namen. Dass wir nicht, dass wir darüber hinausgehen, dass wir wirklich diese Open Source Anwendungen integrieren, sodass dann 1 plus 1 gleich 3 ist, ja? Also dass dass wir die Dinge miteinander verzahnen, zusammenspielen lassen, gemeinsam einen Wert stiften lassen. Und das ist eine Integrationsarbeit, die ist nicht leicht, weil Du hast 8 unterschiedliche Unternehmen, die eine eigene Roadmap oder eigenes System haben, auch 'n kleines bisschen im Nons, 'n anderes Businessmodell. Und und trotzdem sind wir uns eigentlich alle einig, es gilt Microsoft und Google, ja denen eine da was danebenzustellen, was mächtiger ist als als das, was die bieten, ne. Weil wir einfach Open Source sind. Man kann das an erweitern. Man kann andere Use Cases, die ein ein ein ein werbefinanziertes Unternehmen vielleicht nicht nicht machen würde, ja. Wir können andere Sachen machen. Wir können coolere Sachen machen. Aber die haben halt alle immer diesen Single Sign on und man ist ja einmal drin und dann sind die Sachen miteinander verzahnt. Und das müssen wir halt auch hinbekommen. Und das mache ich in im Open Desk sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr viel, dass ich darum mich drum bemühe, dass wir auf offene Standards setzen für den für die Authentifizierung zum Beispiel von Zugriffen aus dem einen System ins andere System. Da gibt's mehrere Probleme. Das ist der Single Sign On ist Oorth, dann ist da der authentifizierte Zugriff, dass ich als Vailland aus Open Proteictors Next dot machen kann. Das ist Oorth, zum Teil aber auch Token Exchange. Das kann neue IDPs. Und das ja, wenn Du jetzt 'n Projekt zum Beispiel aufsetzen, Open Projekt musst Du ja mit Menschen planen, die vielleicht sich noch nie eingeloggt haben. Also musst Du auch die Nutzer schon provisioniert haben in allen Systemen. Also wenn Du jetzt 'n Projekt hast, 'n Open Project und Du möchtest dort einen Projektordner in Nextcloud haben, damit das schön in deinen Desktop integriert ist. Und da möchtest Du schon den Zugriff geregelt haben, bevor sich der Nutzer zum ersten Mal eine Nextout angemeldet hat. Ja, das ist so Probleme, die die Du musst mehrere Standards implementieren, die eigentlich, wenn es einfach nur so was zu teuer wären als einzelnes Unternehmen, das zu implementieren, aber dadurch, dass Du das halt alle gleichzeitig machen und sich drauf einigen, lohnt sich das, ja? Und solche Sachen solche Sachen, die finde ich halt richtig spannend. Was was eigentlich passiert, wenn Du dieses, da gibt's ja dieses Chorsprinzip, ne, das ist irgendwie, Sachen sind billiger zu implementieren, wenn Du's in eigener Organisation machst als über über über Organisationsgrenzen hinweg. Wenn man das schafft, durch gute Kommunikation und Teambuilding zu zu überbrücken, ja, also das das zu umgehen, da hab ich große Leidenschaft für. Ich will, dass wir zusammen eine Alternative bauen, die wirklich mehr rockt und wuppt als das, was Big Tech dorthin bekommt. Und da hab ich echt Passion für. Da hab ich, da hätt ich vielleicht 2 Fragen noch zu. Von daher wars vielleicht doch nicht meine letzte Frage eben. Jetzt hast Du ja so aufgezählt, ne, aus aus wie viel anderen kleineren Projekten Open Desk so subsumiert ist im Prinzip und dass die Summe aller Teile dann natürlich größer ist als jedes einzelne irgendwie zusammen. Mhm. Inwiefern siehst Du da eine Gefahr, dass die die potenziellen Anwender, Nutzer sich das torpedieren, weil sie halt nicht das ganze System nehmen, ne. Also wenn da jetzt eine Komponente drin ist, so Identity und Access Management zu machen, dann hast Du eben selber gesagt, so oh Ort Twitter gemacht, oh Ort braucht ja irgendwie einen zentralen Identity Manager, was für die für die allermeisten da draußen dann wahrscheinlich so der der Google Account oder der GitHub Account oder keine Ahnung, was ist und damit melden sich dann irgendwo an. Mhm. Und wenn ich das jetzt halt nicht auch noch bereitstelle in Open Desk oder das, was Open Desk dazu mitbringt, nicht nutze, ja, und dann trotzdem allen meinen Mitarbeitern sage, okay, ihr braucht aber 'n Google Account, 'n Office Account und keine Ahnung was, unser Open Desk zu benutzen. Wie sehr torpediert sich das dann oder ne, also Identity ist 1, aber genauso, ich könnte ja sagen, okay, wir nutzen nicht Nextcloud, sondern wir nutzen halt irgendwie dafür Dropbox oder Google Drive und alles andere hat Open Desk. Also inwieweit kann diese Mission nur gelingen, wenn wirklich alles verwendet wird? Ah ja, ist auch gute Frage. Und so was denkt mir natürlich auch mal gleich mit. Also jemand, der Open Project verwendet, zum Beispiel aus Datensouveränität, überhaupt, Mendelog in und so weiter zu zu bekämpfen, heißt es noch lange nicht, dass der Mensch nicht auch trotzdem noch irgendwie Sharepoint im Einsatz hat, ja. Und das, glaub ich, genau das das Thema, ne. Dann ist halt die Antwort, ja, ist doch besser, diese offenen Standards zu verwenden, weil sich entspricht ja auch OADC oder so was uns geben für Nutzer Provisionierung. Ist doch besser, auf diese offenen Standards zu setzen. Ist auch, ich find's nicht gut, wenn man Komponenten, konkrete Komponenten ja alternativlos übernehmen muss, ne. Das heißt, wir haben zwar gute Erfahrungen mitm Keykloke als IDP, ja, aber es sollte halt nicht heißen, dass wir nur mit einem Keykloke zusammenarbeiten, sondern Keykloke hat halt zum Beispiel die Fähigkeit, bestimmte Standards implementiert zu haben, ja. Und da sind dadurch ermöglicht sich ermöglichen sich dann Szenarien wie zum Beispiel 'n Token Exchange, womit man halt im Namen 1 Nutzers remote ja, ja, sich sich an einem anderen Dienst authentifizieren kann und autorisieren kann. Das hat halt einen und andere haben das halt noch nicht und deswegen würde dann halt gewählt werden. Aber Du hast völlig recht. Also wir wir wenn wir zum Beispiel die Next Lord Integration von Open Project sehen, ne, da willst Du Arbeitspakete bei uns, also Vorgänge und Du willst die, ja, was machst Du eigentlich? Was sind eigentlich da Vorgänge? Normalerweise hast Du irgendwie eine Datei oder so was, an der Du arbeitest, da sind die Inputs und Du hast dann irgendwelche Dateien als Outputs, ja? Und der Vorgang ist sozusagen das Ding, das dazwischen, wo's getrackt wird. Und dass Du das an deine NEXLA verknüpfen möchtest, ja klar. Hast Du immer eine IDP? Nö. Ja, vielleicht hast Du irgendwo den Nexler drauf auf Hetzner laufen oder auf Jonas und Du hast dein Open Project bei uns in der Cloud oder so was. Du hast vielleicht nicht einen IDP und trotzdem sollte man's irgendwie hinbekommen. Und das ist das, was ich bei uns immer allen Leuten versuche, Bewusstsein dafür zu haben, dass wir halt nicht in einem kleinen abgespeckten Ökosystem Open Desk handeln, sondern wir arbeiten in einem Open Source Ökosystem. Und Menschen, die halt Nextcloud verwenden, sind da, ne. Das ist sone Wertesache und wir müssen in diesem Ökosystem denken und uns auch austauschen und einigen. Deswegen gehen wir zur ForStAM und machen dort Vorträge dazu, sprechen mit den Leuten, dass sie sich auch committen auf diese Standards, sodass wir besser miteinander integrieren können. Ja, unabhängig von den einzelnen Komponenten. Also es geht. Jetzt hab ich Open Desk so verstanden, dass es ja maßgeblich auch für für öffentliche Träger relevant ist, ne? Ja, genau. Und Aber es wird auch schon gefolgt und übernommen für privat und so weiter. Also das, was Sie da bauen, ist Open Source und ja, Leute versuchen das Aber wenn ich wenn ich an an Open Source und die öffentliche Hand denke und ich versuch eigentlich kein Pessimist zu sein, aber ich muss immer an dieses Limox Projekt denken. Aha. Wo ja die Stadt München vor, ich weiß nicht, vielen, vielen Jahren, ich glaub, ist mittlerweile schon 10 Jahre her oder so, ne, irgendwann mal beschlossen hat so, ja, wir verabschieden uns von Microsoft und Office und wir setzen jetzt auf Linux und ich glaub irgendwie, Open Office oder LibreOffice oder was es halt irgendwie damals war. Und das wurde jahrelang versucht und dann wurde das wieder zurückgerollt und dann wurde wieder auf Microsoft und Windows gesetzt, weil die Leute mit diesen Austauschformaten nicht klargekommen sind mit anderen Verwaltungseinrichtungen und so was alles. Und dann wurde vor 'n paar Jahren, glaube ich, wieder gesagt, dass ah, dieses Microsoft ist irgendwie alles schwierig und wir gehen jetzt doch wieder zurück zu zu Linux und zu LibreOffice. Die die dieses dieses Hin und Her, ja, das scheint ja irgendwie systematisch also symptomatisch zu sein für den für den Umgang mit Open Source aus öffentlicher Hand, so. Und was was glaubst Du, kann Open Desk da noch noch richtig oder anders machen, damit sie nicht in ähnliche Probleme reinlaufen? Ja, ich glaub, der der Unterschied ist, dass damals die Welt auch noch nicht so ganz so reif war. Wir hatten auch nicht den Trump erlebt. Wir hatten noch nicht so viele Krisen erlebt. Also wir haben Trade Wars. Wir haben ne, so Trumpsche Aktionen. Dann haben wir die Pandemie erlebt, dass auf jeden Fall viel mehr remote gearbeitet wird und es 'n Bedürfnis gibt nach Werkzeugen, die einfach remote funktionieren und die man auch entwickeln kann. Das ist sozusagen der der Open Source Bereich. Dann haben wir den den den Überfall der Ukraine miterlebt. Und da war nicht klar und zwar nicht klar, wie weit die russische Armee fortschreiten wird, wo wir sie stoppen. Das war gar nicht am Anfang gar nicht klar. Und dann haben wir irgendwie die zentralisierte Softwarelandschaft mit Rechenzentren von Amazon und so weiter. Das das ist, also der, ne, der der Mindset ist ja 'n ganz anderer heute. Heute hörst Du Souveränität, Soverenty überall, das ist das Passwort des Jahres, glaub ich, ja. Gestern war der Gipfel, der französische Gipfel zum Eurostag, das ist das Wort, was am meisten da wahrscheinlich geflogen ist, ne. Da hat der Bundeskanzler hat von Open Desk geredet und den Notwendigkeit, diese Open Source Software einzusetzen vom Bund. Das hat der Bundeskanzler gesagt, von der CDU, ja. Das ist, das ist eine andere Zeit, ja. Das das das ist eine das ist Zeitenwende. Ja. Ja. Auch wenn das Wort bisschen komisch ist von von von, aber ihr wisst was, weißt was ich meine, ne? Das ist das trifft jetzt aufn ganz anderen eine ganz andere Bereitschaft, Risiken einzugehen. Dass Du natürlich diese Probleme nach wie vor hast, ja, ey, guck mal hier, der ist jetzt irgendwie, die Mails werden nicht durchgestellt, das muss an dem Open Source liegen, ja. Was 'n Quatsch, ja? Das halt, wenn da hast Du halt irgendwie, Du musst Software pflegen und das dafür brauchst Du gute Leute und Software pflegen ist komplex, egal wie Du das machst, ja. Das musst Du halt, das das ist nicht kein leichtes Ding, Software zu betreiben. Und wenn Du keine Ahnung davon hast, wirst Du halt auf die Nase fallen. Ich weiß jetzt nicht, das will jetzt nicht sagen, dass München das davon keine Ahnung hat. Nee, 'n ganz in jeden Fall. Ich bin sehr dankbar für all ihre Pioniersarbeit, die dort erfolgt ist. Aber ne, wir in Deutschland und Europa, wir müssen uns dafür sorgen, dass wir halt gute Rechenzentren bekommen, die halt 'n von Gubanetistac unterstützen. Haben wir nicht so viele, ja? Da müssen wir hinkommen. Wir müssen dafür sorgen, dass dass man der eine Wahl frei hat, hat seinen hellen Chart mal hier und mal dort zu deployen. Ja, das ist, da arbeiten wir alle dran und die da muss auch die öffentliche Verwaltung muss da für Fähigkeiten entwickeln und das Coole ist, das passiert, ja? Wir haben mit Open Code d e haben wir ein ein ein GitLab, wo aller Code veröffentlicht wird, denen dann das die die die ja die im Public Sector von von Deutschland verwendet wird. Also unser Code wird da auch noch mal einmal geforgt oder gemörrt, damit es auf jeden Fall kommen wird, ist 'n unglaublich kräftiges Motto. Wenn die Stadt Köln unseren Code einsetzt, ja, auf ihren Servern und das die Stadt Köln zu zu managen, dann ist es wichtig, dass der Code halt überall zur Verfügung steht. Und wenn Du jetzt mal wirklich rumschaust, dann ist es halt nicht mehr nur die München, sondern das macht Stuttgart, das macht Chemnitz, das macht Berlin. Dann macht das ja Kiel, das macht Universitäten, Kliniken, all all diese selber, das jetzt krieg ich an, ja, das machen, das ist ja kein kleines Ding mehr, ne. Das ist das das ist im Einsatz, das ist im. Das ist, das da gibt's Audits, da geht da wird versuchen, Leute an die Daten ranzukommen und unseren Code zu knacken, ja. Das das ist die Bounty Programme, alles Mögliche. Also wir sind da heute ganz anders aufgestellt als damals. Das ist, glaub ich, ein Aber am Ende ist es Management, ne. Am Ende ist es Management. Ja und halt auch Wille, so, ne. Also das das ist, glaub ich, der Punkt, auch was Du da gesagt hast mit, weiß gar nicht, ob sich so viel von den technischen Umständen geändert hat, aber wie Du halt sagst so, ne, die die politischen Umstände und der die die abstrakte Gefahr, die halt lange nur so potenziell beschrieben war, wenn die halt immer realer wird, ne, dann sind halt die Leute auch bereit, andere Risiken einzugehen oder den ein oder anderen Migrationsschmerz einfach halt auch mal auszuhalten. Ja, ganz genau. Genau. Cool. Dann bedanke ich mich Wieland bei dir für die viele, viele Zeit, die wir heute von dir in Anspruch nehmen konnten und das sehr interessante Gespräch. Auf jeden Fall. Dankeschön. Wir hören uns bestimmt irgendwann mal hier wieder in der Programmierbar. Ansonsten hören alle anderen da draußen uns in spätestens 1 oder 2 Wochen wieder und wir sagen bis bald und 1000 Dank. Ich danke dir. Ich wollt euch noch eine Sache sagen. Ich hab die CTO Specials ja genossen, reinzuhören. Es ist Sehr, sehr inspirierend zu hören, wie andere Leute in der Küche kochen. Das ist sehr, sehr, sehr cool. Macht das bitte weiter, ja? Dankeschön. Auf jeden Fall. Also es es lebt ja davon, dass wir dass wir auch coole Gäste haben so, ja? Das hängt ja gar nicht so unmittelbar an uns. Also wenn Du oder ihr da draußen noch Vorschläge für andere coole Gäste für CTO Specials habt, immer gerne her damit. Ich muss tatsächlich sagen, die CTO Specials sind in der Organisation deutlich einfacher als die Deep Dives, ja? Wenn Du son Deep Dive organisieren willst und dann sagen wir so, ich hätte hier, weiß ich nicht, wir haben jetzt neue Release von React, da suchen wir jemanden, mit dem wir drüber sprechen können. Das immer ein bisschen schwierig dann da irgendwie jemanden zu finden. Wohingegen bei den CTO Specials, wenn uns jemand vorgeschlagen wird oder wir selber irgendwie jemanden finden und den anschreiben und sagen, hey, hallo, wir sind die programmierbar, hast Du mal irgendwie Lust mit uns eine Stunde zu sprechen? Außer einmal hat mir da noch nie jemand eine Absage gegeben. So. Bei manchen dauert's 'n bisschen länger und manchmal ist da noch eine Presseabteilung und eine Legal Abteilung und keine Ahnung, irgendwie alles mit dabei. Aber die die Leute sind da immer sehr, sehr viel zugänglicher, als man eigentlich denken könnte. Ja, eine super Sache. Und davon lebt es ja irgendwann. Von daher deswegen noch mal 1000 Dank, dass Du dir Zeit genommen hast. Alle anderen werden sicherlich auch davon profitieren und bis bald. Tschau tschau. Tschau, danke 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0: Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu einem neuen CTO Special hier in der Programmierbar. Ich bin immer noch oder wieder mal oder wie auch immer der Jan bei euch heute hier am Start und ich hab einen sehr interessanten Gast bei mir. Dazu muss man vielleicht einmal aus dem Nähkästchen plaudern und erzählen, meistens ist es ja so, dass wir die Gäste für unsere CTO Specials, die finden meistens Dennis und ich irgendwo auf Veranstaltungen in unserer eigenen Bubble oder sonst irgendwo und dann sprechen wir mit denen und fragen, wie läuft das denn hier so? Unser heutiger Gast wurde uns von einem Teammitglied empfohlen und der hat uns das gepitcht und hat mir dazu ein LinkedIn Profil geschickt und meinte, mit dem sollten wir unbedingt mal reden. Ich hab das LinkedIn Profil aufgemacht, hab son bisschen gegoogelt und ich war instant überzeugt, muss ich sagen.\n\nWas hat mich irgendwie überzeugt? Ich find Menschen immer interessant, wenn sie viele viele Sprachen mehr sprechen können als ich, wenn sie super früh schon gegründet haben, wenn sie länger oder immer noch mal außerhalb von Deutschland gewohnt haben und wenn sie viel mit Open Source zu tun haben und unser heutiger Gast vereint das alles in Personalunion und deshalb war das eine eine Instant Entscheidung auf unserer Seite, hier mal ein Gespräch zu suchen und damit herzlich willkommen Wieland Lindenhal. Hallo, schön, dass Du da bist.\n\nSpeaker 1: Dankeschön. Freut mich, hier zu sein.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wieland, die allererste Frage, die ich mir gestellt hab, als ich dein LinkedIn Profil angeguckt hab, war nicht, welche Sprachen Du alles sprichst, sondern ich hab son bisschen geguckt, was Du schon so alles gemacht hast in deinem Leben und ich hab mich gefragt, warst Du irgendwo jemals so ganz klassisch angestellt, überhaupt, irgendwann mal?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, witzig. Ja, ich glaub für 'n paar Wochen. Und zwar am Lehrstuhl von Professor Weske. Der mochte mich aber nicht wirklich. Und an diesem Lehrstuhl wurde der zeitgleich der Orax entwickelt.\n\nOrax ist der Vorläufer von Signavio. Und da war ein Doktorand mit, der auch sozusagen das Bachelorprojekt mit koordiniert hat, an dem ich mitgearbeitet habe, was ich auch geleitet hatte damals. Und der brauchte mich immer zum Fragen stellen. Der wollte immer, dass ich ihn ausquetsche und seine Konzepte hinterfrage und er sie erklären muss. Und ich hab's dann son bisschen auf 'nem Blatt Papier und aufm Whiteboard dann aufgemalt für ihn, was er mir erklärt hat.\n\nUnd deshalb bin ich lange gehalten. Also der Signalview ist ja ja groß geworden. Sehr schön, freu ich mich drüber. Aber ich ja, Angestellten sein, das war nicht so mein Ding. Ich hab mal eine Zeit lang noch als Berater gearbeitet, also dann war ich selbstständiger als Berater.\n\nDas war auch nicht so mein Ding.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also waren die paar Wochen Festanstellungen so traumatisch für dich, dass Du gesagt hast, so, das das mach ich schon nicht mehr?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ach, keine Ahnung, es hat einfach nicht funktioniert irgendwie. Es ist, weiß nicht, es das Nee, ich muss schon mein Ding dann machen, ne. Und kenn auch mit anderen zusammen. Also nicht mein Ding, sondern unser Ding eigentlich, ja, wenn das Du möchte.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ah, das ist schön. Ja. Und dann hast Du direkt nach oder aus oder vor der Uni gegründet und dich selbstständig gemacht oder wie wie musst Du mir die Geschichte vorstellen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, das ging schon 'n bisschen früher los. Also des die Selbstständigkeit fing in der Oberstufe an. Das muss man vielleicht ausholen. Ich hab eigentlich Competern nicht so gerne gemocht. Das war nicht so mein Ding.\n\nIch fand's irgendwie spannender, mit Hardware zu arbeiten. Also wirklich Hardware schmieden, schweißen, wechseln, Hütten bauen, Öfen bauen und so was. Das fand ich immer cool. Hat aber natürlich den Nachteil, dass Du halt erst mal jemand brauchst, der dir's zeigt. Das Wissen ist nicht da, das Material ist nicht da, das Werkzeug ist nicht da und so.\n\nAufm Dorf war's halt sau langweilig und da war immer so irgendwie ja, der Kampf gegen die Langeweile, das machen. Und ich hatte dann 'n paar gute Freunde, mit denen das halt sehr gut ging. Und ich hatte auch immer Computer zu Hause, aber das war halt nicht interessant. Also ich war relativ klein so, weiß nicht, gefühlt irgendwie 6 Jahre oder 7 Jahre und dann gab's dann halt schon irgendwie Atari und 2 Sechsundachtziger Flugsimulator, war eigentlich 'n wichtiges Thema, Microsoft Flugsimulator und ich fand's halt unglaublich langweilig. Ich war auch alles auf Englisch, hab nichts kapiert.\n\nDen den den Norton Commander fand ich irgendwie völlig unlogisch und warum, ja. 'N Drucker haben sowieso nie funktioniert und so was. Also es hat mich echt nicht angemacht, das Zeug, ja. Das ist das war nichts, was mich gerufen hat. Ja genau und dann war's aber so, dass dass dass ich in der, wie war das eigentlich so?\n\nAm Ende der Mittelstufe, da hatt ich son son Trip son son Job in der der Schulleistung und da musste ich irgendwie mal raus ins Ausland. Ich musste mal woanders hin. Ich war einmal rebellieren, bin nach England gegangen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Hast hast Du das entschieden oder deine Eltern?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das hab ich entschieden ziemlich genau. Ich wollte eigentlich nach Amerika, hab dann son AllBright Stipendium probiert, bin dann durch mehrere Stufen irgendwie durchgekommen und am Ende musste dann halt die Bundestagsabgeordnete meines Wahlkreises, musste dann entscheiden, wer reinkommt. Und da, weiß ich nicht. Ich glaub, ich war damals 'n bisschen zu, hatte eine zu liberale Weltanschauung und das war 'n SPD Bundestagabgeordnete. Hat nicht so gepasst, weiß ich nicht.\n\nSo, aber das meine Weltanschauung wird sich dann weiterentwickeln, ne. Nur aber ja. Genau und da bin ich halt der Engländer Gag zu meiner Tante, die wohnt in England. Und das war dann so, dass Internet war teuer. Ich hatte eine Freundin in Deutschland, Briefeschreiben dauerte irgendwie sehr lange, telefonieren war teuer.\n\nUnd mein ältester Bruder und mein Vater, die haben dann irgendwie die schlaue Entscheidung getroffen und zusammengelegt, haben einen Paket geschickt mit 'nem iMac drin. Ich glaub, das war einen orangener. Und Und da reden wir\n\nSpeaker 0: also nur für die kleinen Kinder zu Hause, da reden wir noch von diesem Röhren iMac, ne,\n\nSpeaker 1: so Röhrenkörper.\n\nSpeaker 0: Polycarbonat Verpackung und so, die die Schönen noch.\n\nSpeaker 1: Aber so ein so ein so ein absoluter Dow, wie ich damals war, ja? Ich muss nur mal erklären, was fürn Dow ich da war. Also ich bin, ich ich wollt halt Internet haben, weil die gesagt haben, musst Internet anschließen. Und dann bin ich halt ins Kiosk gegangen und da gab's immer diese Virgin Internet und so weiter, das ist in England, ne. Internetmagazine, wo Du halt sone CD drauf hattest und diese CD konntest Du nutzen, das Internet zu installieren, ja, für PCs.\n\nIch kannte den Unterschied zu den PCs und Macs aber nicht, ja. Das er, als hab ich andere und alle möglichen Magazine gekauft, die CD auszuprobieren, es zu installieren und es hat halt nicht geklappt. Das ist auf dem Niveau recht da unterwegs. Und das Tolle am Mac war aber auch, dass er halt irgendwie, Jana, der hatte schon USB gehabt. Das heißt, irgend das Zusammenstecken war viel leichter als das, was ich früher ausm Kinderzimmer kannte und was mich so angenervt hatte.\n\nDas heißt, das ging dann irgendwie cool. Das was sie, meinen Bruder und meinen Vater dann halt auch noch sehr cool gemacht haben, ist, die hatten dann noch eine CD reingelegt, eine gebrannte, ein Raubgepick quasi von Flash 3 und von und 'nem Buch mit den HTML Basics, ja. Und so kam es dann, dass ich dann 2 Monate später dann meine erste Webseite hatte mit 'ner Flashanimation drauf. Ich glaub, das war irgendwie eine Weihnachtskarte mit 'nem Weihnachtsmann, der vor irgend 'nem Mülltonne wegläuft, irgendwie so was. Also Weihnachtskarten brauchte ich in England.\n\nEngland ist das 'n großes Ding, da braucht man und ich wusste das nicht, als hab ich eine programmiert. Und dann war 'n halbes Jahr England war dann durch. England war sehr, sehr spannend. Die waren 'n bisschen weiter mit Internet. Die hatten dann Computerräume, wo so Pentium 3 Rechner standen.\n\nAltavista war bis am Anfang so drüber die Suchmaschine. Und als das das war son 99 2000 Wechsel, da wurde auf einmal Google son Ding. Und wow, Google war cool. Ja, und dann ging's auch son bisschen weiter, dann kam ich aus England zurück und mein Bruder, ältester Bruder war schon son bisschen weiter im Internet, hatte zum Beispiel diesen Nachrichtenaggigator Netzzeitung d e gestartet. Also Internet kostete Geld und man hat nach dem Youtube abgerechnet und die Domain Netzzeitung d e war sozusagen im Familienbesitz, also eine Zweizeit.\n\nUnd ja, dann gleichzeitig ist auch die Netzzeitung, die erste online only Zeitung gestartet. Und die Leute haben's nicht gehört, Unterschied Netz Zeitung, Netzzeitung und sind dann dort auf der Domain gelandet. Und mein Bruder und mein Vater, die waren halt so schlau, dass sie die Gäste bitte kommen, aber auch was hin auf die Seite auf die Domain parken. Und das war dann eigentlich eine Agglikation der Top 3 Schlagzeilen, also war vor RSS, vor Google News und so weiter. Top 3 Schlagzeilen einfach mit regulären Ausdrücken gepaßt von den Frontseiten der Zeitungen und dann nebeneinandergestellt, sodass Du halt nicht sehen konntest, was die Presse schreibt.\n\nDa waren das, das mochten Leute sehr gerne, die irgendwie wollten, 'n schnellen Überblick bekommen wollten und und nicht so viel wie viel's im Internet bezahlen wollten. Genau. So, solche Sachen sind das so in der Zeit passiert und das heißt, mein Bruder konnte da schon son bisschen Pearl und so, hat das mit Pearl gebaut. Und gleichzeitig war es auch so irgendwie das Anfang vom Ende der Dotcom Blase, aber alle haben noch dran geglaubt. Und da kam die Idee auf auch wieder von meinem Bruder und Vater irgendwie so in dem Umfeld, Man könnte doch son Yahoo machen für Schüler, son son Katalog, das Internet für ja Schulmaterial.\n\nWie findet man das eigentlich als Schüler? Und ne, BigSpeater son Ding, man hatte zuerst die die Domain irgendwie im Kicker, also im Auge, Schule im Netz d e. Und die gehörte dann aber jemand anderem, der aber auch in der Topf Dot Com Blase son bisschen, ja, wie soll ich sagen, bullisch unterwegs war, ne, ne und angerufen und einmal getroffen und quasi 20000 Mark irgendwie eingesammelt so und dann damit halt das Start up Schule im Netz DESINGMBH gegründet, ja. Einfachstes Fundraising der Geschichte. Ja, fast.\n\nIch hab son paar Fundraising Geschichten, ja. Das ist ganz witzig. Genau und dann haben wir uns halt irgendwie unglaublich reich gefühlt mit 20000 Mark. Ich weiß noch, dass mein Bruder dann mich im Bahnhof abgeholt hat mit sonem Opel Kadett Kombi und ich saß noch hinten drin, weil vorne war noch 'n anderer Gesellschafter, der dann mit, ja und dann und dann sagt er, okay, Viad, wir machen jetzt Folgendes. Hier meine Tasche und hier mal das, son so MacBook schwarz, son Waffeleisen hieß das bei uns.\n\nSo, und jetzt tippt er mal rein und dann hat er mir irgendwie sone Terminal irgendwie während des Fahren hat er mir so durch durchgediktiert, was ich damit machen soll, halt mal Programmieren zu lernen und ich hab mich grad als Bilder eigentlich so von mir. Also es macht vielleicht nicht wirklich Sinn gegeben, was ich da eingegeben habe und warum das unglaublich cool ist. Lange Rede, kurzer Sinn, also er, wir haben das Ding hochgezogen. Wir haben ein Portal gebaut. Wir haben die die wir haben das Netz durchforstet.\n\nWir haben Schüler, meine Mitschüler aus der Klasse haben wir eingestellt, dann programmiert. Wir haben Lehrer dazugewonnen, dass sie die Inhalte, die wir einstellen, unser Katalog überprüfen auf Qualität und so weiter. War ziemlich cool. Natürlich hat die Kohle nicht gereicht und dann haben wir halt angefangen als Agentur zu arbeiten. Und glücklicherweise hatten wir da auch Kontakte, haben wir 'n Onlinewörterbücher gebaut für Pons, ne, die Grünen, nicht die gelben.\n\nMhm. Die wir haben uns dann durchfinanziert. Wir haben für RTL, GZSZ d e hab ich Animationen mit Flash gebaut, Schummelcomics und alles Mögliche für 'n Herdverlag haben wir Sachen gemacht. Und das war immer so, dass ich so, dass dass dass Ich war immer dafür verantwortlich, dass das irgendwie so modern und interaktiv und animiert ist so mit Flash. Hab dann irgendwie mit Action Script dann mich dann angefreundet.\n\nUnd mein Bruder hat hintenrum so das das ganze Datenbanken und so weiter gemacht. Also noch bevor's, ja, wirklich Frameworks oder Open Source gab. Da mussten wir so komische proprietäre Frameworks erinnern, die hießen Prime Base und so. Das das hat er immer gemacht. Und was halt dran interessant ist, ist, dass ich dann halt, dass er und ich, die dann immer so im Gespann gearbeitet haben, schon Probleme hatten, darüber zu reden, was wir eigentlich bauen wollen und wie wir's bauen wollen.\n\nAlso die Sprache darüber eigentlich ne ne, eine Softwarearchitektur zu beschreiben, die hatten wir einfach nicht. Und das hat uns gehindert. Und ja, irgendwann war die Abitur bei mir halt durch und ich wollte gerne studieren. Und auf 'nem Studiumsmesse hat mich mein anderer Bruder, mit dem wir's auch zusammen gemacht haben. Der ist übrigens jetzt hier der CEO von Open Project, wo wir wo ich jetzt halt seit Jahren unterwegs bin.\n\nDer hat mich drauf gestoßen auf einen Stand vom Hasel Plattner Institut. Und das Hasel Plattner Institut, das war damals so, die hatten 2 Jahrgänge schon durch und eigentlich wär Informatik, wenn Du zur Informatik gehen wolltest, bist nach Karlsruhe gegangen. Und da war dieser Stand vom Hasel Plattner Institut und die hatten dann auf auf ihren Standmaterial, hatten die sozusagen die das Versprechen, dass sie Softwareingenieurs, nee, dass sie zur in die Informatik sozusagen Ingenieurskultur reinbringen wollen. Also Pläne Pläne zeichnen, die für Menschen sind. Nicht für Maschinen, die die nicht von Maschinen interpretiert werden sollen, so was wie URL oder so was, sondern wirklich für für Menschen.\n\nUnd da hat's bei mir Klick gemacht. Also ich, das ist geil. Da hat das muss man anschauen. Und bin dann halt ans Asou Platt Institut zum Studieren gegangen. Meine Noten waren nicht gut genug, weil ich zu viel programmiert hatte.\n\nAber rück- nach, rückverfahren bin ich dann reingekommen, war superhappy und das hat mir alles verändert. Ja, also Softwareingenieurswesen. Seitdem seh ich da ganz, schau ich da ganz, ganz anders drauf. Und ich glaub, das war, das ist eigentlich der Grundstein eigentlich so für für das, was ich heute mache. Also dass ich halt gesehen hab, die die Grenzen von Softwareentwicklung sind eigentlich die Grenzen der der der Teamarbeit.\n\nWie gut kann man über Software reden? Wie kann man sich drauf einigen, was gebaut wird, wie's benannt wird, was es tut, wo die Schnittstellen sind, was die Schnittstellen sind. Genau, das war eigentlich so der Grundstein für\n\nSpeaker 0: Wie Ja. Wie würdest Du dein Verhältnis zur Softwareentwicklung heute beschreiben? Ja, wir haben jetzt viel gehört und da war 'n sehr großer Wandel drin von, na ja, eigentlich hättest Du viel lieber was mit deinen Händen gemacht und was Praktisches und dieses Computerzeug war alles langweilig. Hin zu dem anderen Extrem zu, ja, deine deine Noten waren zu schlecht, weil Du zu viel programmiert hast und dich zu wenig anderes irgendwie gekümmert hast, ja? Und dann Ja.\n\nHast Du's doch irgendwie studiert, so. Jetzt einige Jahre und Jahrzehnte später, wenn Du da drauf guckst so, wie würdest Du dieses Verhältnis beschreiben?\n\nSpeaker 1: Oh, ich bin immer noch sehr gerne am am Basteln, auch mit den Händen. Also ich find, was weiß ich, ich hab hier im Garten brauch ich eine Sauna, ja oder das das ich finde, das gehört eigentlich so dazu, dass das, ne, dass das Machen, das ist mir egal, was es ist. Der Unterschied ist natürlich, das hab ich vielleicht nicht so genau erklärt, aber mit dem Internet kommt halt auf einmal der Zugang zu allem. Du kommst zu Wissen, zu Material und zu Werkzeugen, ja? Und aus 'ner aus der aus dem, wenn Du dich mit Material arbeitest, heute kann ich mir das leisten, aber früher hatte ich den.\n\nIch hatte kein Auto, ums Material zu kaufen, kein Geld. Meine Eltern hatten vielleicht doch nicht so viel Zeit, immer mir alles zeigen und wussten auch nicht alles, ja. Die Bücher zu bekommen, ja, wo sollst 'n die suchen? In der Schulbibliothek, wie man 'n Lehmofen baut? Vergiss es, ja, kriegst Du nicht.\n\nDas heißt, das das heißt eigentlich mitm Zugang zum Internet, ne, weiter halt im Paradies. Also das Internet, das war für mich das Ding, was das was wichtig ist, ja. Das Internet ist für mich auch der, das das, da bin ich so richtig emotional dahinter, ne. Da hab ich eine Meinung dazu, da denk ich ja digitale Freiheitsrechte. Einfach nur aus der Erfahrung heraus, welche Freiheit es mir gegeben hat damals, nicht zu entfalten, auszutoben und Sachen aufzubauen.\n\nJa.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das beantwortet die Frage aber nur halb, weil es geht ja auch so darum, also okay, da das war jetzt so, wie ist dein Verhältnis nach wie vor zu zu Bastelarbeit und wie ist dein Verhältnis zum Internet, aber wie guckst Du heute auf Softwareentwicklung wirklich, ja? Wenn ich dir jetzt heute sagen würde, bau mir das oder für eure Firma braucht ihr x y und das muss gebaut werden. Wie guckst Du da drauf? Denkst Du dir, oh, das ist eine Aufgabe, die muss jetzt halt gemacht werden, also mach ich das oder hast Du da Spaß dran und kannst dich da drin verlieren, so wie?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, aber also bei mir ist das sehr, sehr klar, dass als Erstes mal das Warum, ne. Also warum ist das eine gute Idee? Also ich baue jetzt nicht das Bauens wegen. Mhm. So, sondern schon das Warum.\n\nUnd dann bei dem Warum frag ich mich nach dem Wie und bei dem Wie, dann guck ich mich und steck ganz viele Fragen. Und dabei entdecke ich dann neue Software oder neue Frameworks oder neue, ne, Komponenten. Und und dann bin ich dann auch dahinter, weil's mein Problem lösen kann. Also ich hatte diesen diesen Nachrichtenaggregat, den ich schon angesprochen hatte, da hatte ich da das Problem, dass ich 'n Terabyte Daten in 'ner Post Quest Datenbank hatte und das ging nicht mehr weiter. Und wenn das wenn Du dann auf einmal an so was kommst wie, dann ist das halt einen Mindblowing, ne.\n\nDas ist halt, da gehen ganz andere Sachen auf einmal und dann finde ich Technologie halt auch wieder spannend, aber halt nur zu den zu 10 Prozent, wie ich's halt brauche. Ich brauch nicht die 100 Prozent, ne. Ich brauch die 10 Prozent, die mir mein Problem löst und und so gehe ich dann halt, ich persönlich halt bin ich halt in allen Stacks auf allen Layern, ne, also da bin ich dann 10 Prozent drin und knote das zusammen, halt das Produkt zu bauen, aber halt ja mit den richtigen Werkzeugen am richtigen Platz, ne. Das das ist da sozusagen, also ich glaube, das ist das Was und dann halt diese Ingenieursgedanke. Wie wie wie was ist die richtige Architektur?\n\nWie kann ich dafür sorgen, dass das richtige Werkzeug das Problem löst, was auch wartbar ist, was ich ja, was Strukturen hat, die die teamfähig sind, ja? Also heute, das ist, mein klar, kommen wir vielleicht noch später zu, aber 2005, da kam das Rails Framework raus, ne. Das das hat mich sehr geprägt, dass da alles drin ist, was man eigentlich braucht, Produkte zu bauen. Ne, Rails ist 'n ist 'n ist 'n Framework, das da hat dieser Typ, der New David Heinemeiner Heinemile Hanson, die h 8, der hat dann in soner halben Stunde son Block hingehämmert, ja. Und das ist halt genau das, was ich meine.\n\nDu kannst einen 'n Produkt raushauen und Du hast trotzdem alle architektonischen Grundsteine drin von Datenmigration, relationales Datenmapping, Controller, Du hast 'n Frontend, Du hast CSS zusammenkompiliert und so weiter. Also ist auch alles drin, alles da und Du könntest damit einfach bauen. Und das eine Person, ein Ding von vorne bis hinten. Ja, das macht's halt unglaubliche Freiheits grade.\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt hast Du ja schon gesagt, so Sachen, die dir wichtig sind, ne, dass Werkzeuge irgendwie für Teams funktionieren müssen und Software kann immer nur so gut sein wie die Menschen und die Prozesse irgendwie hinten dran und da hast Du irgendwie auch Interesse an Kollaboration. Und wenn man auf sone Biografie guckt, auch auf die eigene, im Nachgang erscheint ja vieles immer so sinnvoll und sieht dann so aus, als wär das so, hätte sich so ganz organisch gegeben und war schon immer irgendwie in diesen Bahnen gelenkt, ja. Aber wenn jetzt jemand vor 10 oder 15 Jahren vor dir gestanden hätte und gesagt hätte, na ja, guck mal, Du wirst mit diesem Open Project sone, es wird eine große Company sein und das wird alles Open Source und das wird irgendwie auch son Open Source Framework aufbauen und trotzdem verdient ihr damit Geld und überhaupt so. Hättest Du dem das geglaubt? Also war das war das schon immer so dein Ziel oder hat sich das durch durch Zufall ergeben?\n\nWie seid ihr wie seid ihr dahin\n\nSpeaker 1: gekommen? Also gute Frage. Also hätte das jemand jemand jemand damals gesagt, ob das einen schöner wäre, dann hätt ich gesagt, ja, ja. Hätte ich jetzt aber als mein Ziel definiert, vermutlich nicht. Mein Ziel war dann damals noch 'n ganz anderes.\n\nMein Ziel war so, also ich hab da ja irgendwie studiert und dann hab ich war ich auch im Ausland, war 'n Jahr in Moskau, kam zurück, wollte unbedingt tolle Infrastruktur in Deutschland nutzen, wieder Firma zu machen und so was. Hab tolle Kollegen gefunden, die einfach alles auch viel schlauer waren in in der Uni und so. Aber war in der Uni so, ich musste mich durchkämpfen. Und dann war die Uni fertig und konnte dann auf einmal loslegen, weil wir wieder son Wörterbuch gebaut haben. Und und dafür brauchte ich halt Leute und das fand ich spannend, ne.\n\nIch brauch ich fand das spannend in in an der Uni schon die die Leute, die ich kannte. Der eine hat sich für Performance interessiert, der andere mehr für Administration, der nächste für Datentransformation und Bereinigung. Und die konnt ich dann also zusammenführen und 'n Team aufbauen, was dann Software Engineering macht. Und das haben wir dann eigentlich als das Produkt damals so gesehen. Wir haben gesagt, also mit mir war ich ja wieder meine meine Brüder, die da auch involviert waren wieder, dass sie gesagt haben, wir bauen son Softwareingenieursbüro auf.\n\nDas sind so so Begriffe, die gab's damals gar nicht, Softwareingenieursbüro. Wir hatten so dann das das Ding, wir hatten weiße Helme, weil in Deutschland Aufbau Ingenieure weiße Helme haben, ja. Das war so das das das, wenn neue ja Studenten und Mitarbeiter dann bei uns angefangen, haben sie erst mal son Helm bekommen mit ihrem Namen drauf, ja. Das das war so das Verständnis, was wir machen wollten. Wir wollten einfach bessere Software bauen mit weniger Leuten.\n\nUnd das haben wir dann auch geschafft. Also das zum Beispiel dieses Wörterbuch, da da haben wir, da sind wir abgegangen, ja. Da haben wir gesagt, okay, wir wollen schnell viele Features bauen, also so, wie heißt das noch mal? User generated content, also Wikipedia Ansatz für Wörterbücher. Das heißt, wir brauchen son Editorial Office, ja, wo's irgendwie viele Features hat, wo dann so Prozesse abgehen wie ja, jemand macht 'n Vorschlag, muss angenommen werden und so was.\n\nDas war grad billig und einfach mit Rails bauen. Wir wussten, Rails hat nicht die Performance für die Suchmaschine. Also haben wir gesagt, okay, für die Suchmaschine nehmen wir Lysin und nehmen dort die Java Virtual Maschine unten drunter. Und damit das beides zusammen funktionieren kann, haben wir halt Ruby auf der Java Virtual Maschine laufen lassen mit JWM. Das hat funktioniert, haben wir hingekriegt.\n\nUnd das gab's nicht so oft auf der Welt, aber ja, die Performance war da, 1000 Request pro Sekunde haben wir hingekriegt und wir hatten das Editorial Office. Leider ist dann dem Kunde irgendwann da das Geld ausgegangen. Mhm. Und er musste mir dann weitergehen und dann Ja, aber nicht, ne, Du siehst, also das mein Ziel war's eigentlich den Teams aufzubauen, die zusammen sich ergänzen, gemeinsam an etwas arbeiten und ja, einfach schwere Nüsse knacken, ne. Das das das war schon das Ziel.\n\nAber das immer war's auch dabei, die die Komponente, das Produkt zu definieren. Also das, wir haben dann mit dem Kunden zusammen das Produkt definiert und haben da sehr, sehr viel Einfluss genommen und die Architektur ergab sich dann halt oftmals daraus.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und wann kam dann so der Wandel von, ihr seid ein Ingenieursbüro, was quasi Lösungen für andere baut hin zu so was wie Open Project, wo man sagt, okay, das ist jetzt unser eigenes Produkt, das wir selber vertreiben.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, das ist eine eine eine eine komischer Turn, der da stattfindet. Also 2005 und 2000, ja doch 2005 im Bachelorprojekt, der hat mir schon so was benutzt, uns zu koordinieren, also 7 Leute, hat was benutzt, das hieß Track. Track wars und Subversion, Frontend mit son bisschen Aufgaben, Management und Wiki, glaub ich. Bin mir nicht so ganz sicher. Und okay, das war so in meinem Freundeskreis war das so das das Ding, was wir immer verwendet haben für unsere Projekte.\n\nAlso im Freundeskreis aus der Uni, ne. Und und dann wurde das ziemlich schnell abgelöst durch den durch das viel bessere Werkzeug, Red Mine.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich wusste, dass es jetzt kommt. Ich wollte ich wollte grade noch was zu Red Mine sagen und dann, ja. Ja. Weil es auch viel, viel besser ist halt auch.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, das ist supergut. Vielleicht für die Leute, die nicht ist das Redmine ist. Redmine ist halt auch eigentlich das größte, was war's damals auf jeden Fall, das größte Open Source Projekt auf Wales Basis, sone Art Jira, ja, mit allem drinnen, was man so braucht, einen Team zu koordinieren, also Issue Tracking, Wiki, Subversion Integration, später halt auch geht. Da gab's sogar so einfache Zeitenerfassung. Ich vergess jetzt bestimmt noch irgendwas Wichtiges.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also ohne das technisch kleinreden zu wollen, aber RedMine hat das halt vor 20 Jahren geschafft oder vor vor 15 Jahren geschafft, den den Charme, den Girau heute ausmacht, damals schon irgendwie zu sehr haben.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ja, da der der Charme, der ist wichtig. Da können wir gleich doch noch noch mal drauf zurückkommen. Jedenfalls haben wir dann halt Dreadman angefangen einzusetzen, uns selbst zu koordinieren, unsere Arbeiten an den Wörterbüchern und so was. Und ja, wir haben auch noch Suburation verwendet und so was. Das das war eigentlich toll.\n\nSo und als, der der war sone, ich glaub's aber auch noch 'n paar Wirtschaftskrisen in der Zwischenzeit. Wir hatten so namhafte Kunden, die dann irgendwie alle zusammen gleichzeitig entschieden haben, nicht mehr zu zahlen. Und das war eine ziemlich harte Zeit. Wir waren da kurz vor Bankroptacy und weiter und dann hab ich das gemacht, was ich eigentlich nie machen wollte. Ich bin tatsächlich per Bodylasing gemacht von mir selbst, ne.\n\nIch bin nach München gegangen, ich war auch in Berlin gewohnt, München gegangen, hab für Siemens Corporate Finance dort war ich dann Berater. Das hat mich innerlich quasi zerrissen eigentlich, weil ich dachte, es ist nicht mein Ding. Und hab denen dann geholfen beim ja, Glossare und Wörterbuchfunktionalitäten in ihr Finance Training reinzubekommen. Und dieses Softwareprojekt, das brauchte dann wieder Koordinierung und wir haben eine für Redman verwendet. Und dort wurde dann hat haben's dann die Leute von Siemens gesehen, junge Leute und haben gesagt, oh cool, das könnt doch auch gebrauchen für unsere Prozesse.\n\nUnd könnt, aber wir müssten da Kostenplanung haben. Und schwuppdiwupp wurd's danach Glossarentwicklungen gab's dann auf einmal Red Mind Plug in Entwicklung. Und damit waren wir dann auf einmal im Open Source Business, weil ist, das heißt, ne, ist da drin und so weiter. Alles, was man dann baut, ist dann auch wieder GPL, wenn's reingeknotet wird. Und ja, wir haben dann die Software immer weiter erweitert für den Kunden, 'n Corporate Kunde dann und Redman war nicht so Corporate.\n\nUnd wir haben immer versucht, dann im Chor von Redman Sachen reinzubekommen, damit wir, ne, mit unseren Plug ins ja, die die die Features reinbekommen, die die die Redman dann halt ja, corpidfähig machen. Und da gab's, das war also auf einmal entstand da so ein ein ein, ich wollt die Software für Geldbusiness im Open Source Bereich. Und mit der Zeit wurde es aber immer anstrengender, weil wir echt auch gewachsen sind und da immer mehr drauf aufgebaut haben und wir aber zu wenig Einfluss auf den Chor hatten, unsere Versprechen, die wir uns in unseren Kunden gegeben haben, umsetzen zu können. Genau und dann war's dann irgendwann so weit, dass wir gesagt haben, boah, unsere Roadmap, die entwickelt sich schneller als die von von Redman selbst. Und der Redman Gründer, ich hab 'n leider nie persönlich getroffen, aber ich ich hab 'n großen Respekt vor ihm.\n\nDer hat mir eine gute Linie durchgezogen für sich, aber hat halt nicht zu unserer gepasst. Und dann haben wir dann irgendwann, okay, kam bald nicht zusammen, haben wir dann halt einen einen Fock Forg gemacht, also schöne Open Source, ne. Das hatten wir noch Chilli Project und 'n paar Monate später. Mein Bruder hatte da einfach Open Project die Domains gekauft, org und com. Und dann haben wir das gesagt, nee, besserer Name, nehmen wir Open Project.\n\nDas heißt, das war eigentlich noch so immer noch, okay, Open Source Projekt, wir bauen Software für Geld. Und ne, waren so Kunden dann irgendwie Deutsche Telekom und so. Und ja, und dann kommt dann so die Idee, ne, okay, lass uns das doch einfach mal hosten. Das war son neues Ding. Ist doch cool, weil dein GPL ist dann halt kein Problem, ja.\n\nDu Du hostest das einfach. Alles, was Du hinter deinem auf den Server packst, musst Du nicht rausgeben als Code. Das war son bisschen eigentlich fast anti, anti Open Source könnte man's fast sagen, ne. Da kannst Du halt also redmin nehmen, da heißt Open Project erweitern und musst es nicht rausgeben, hast Du vielleicht einen einen Wettbewerbsvorteil.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ist Open Project heute immer noch ein Red Mind Fock oder habt ihr's irgendwann mal komplett auf eigene Beine gestellt?\n\nSpeaker 1: Du findest immer noch Code von Red Mind drin. Ja, und Leute, die von Red Mind kommen und umsatteln, die finden noch grundlegende Konzepte darin wieder, ja. Das ist das ist noch recht recht in den Grundzügen kann man das erkennen. Kriegen wir auch mal wieder, das Feedback. Aber auch zu unserem Vorteil.\n\nAlso Leute fanden Redman gut, irgendwie nützlich und die finden sich dann wieder und freuen sich darüber, wie viel moderner das alles ist, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Man man sieht es eben nicht an, so. Das kann man kann man, glaub ich, mal festhalten. Dass da Redmine irgendwie drunter steckt oder so.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ah, okay cool, das freut mich. Ja, wir haben auch viel gemacht, ne. Genau. Wir haben dann dieses Spiel des DisARs Businesses probiert, dass wir einfach ja Open Project auf multitensive fähig gemacht haben und sozusagen 'n billiges Hosting angeboten haben mit unseren Enterprise Features drin. Also Enterprise Corporate, ne, ist das, was die Idee, die wir hatten, war halt durch besseres UI, moderneres Interaktions ja, Oberflächenansprechender zu sein als Red Mine und 'ner anderen Kunden anzusprechen.\n\nGing nicht so gut. Das das also dieser Markt ist voll mit Projektmanagement Software, Software a Service und sich da zu behaupten, ist nicht leicht. Also das ne, da da mit Geld zu verdienen. Interessanterweise, was dann aber Jahre später, also ich mein, in der Zeit, ne, war wurde immer halt quer subventioniert durch Softwareingenieurs Bürosarbeit und Produkt aufgebaut und und hier Auftrag und da Auftrag und hier erweitern durch die Fähigkeit und die Fähigkeit. Ja, mit der Zeit dadurch, dass es halt 'n Open Source Projekt war, jedenfalls versucht, also die die Open Source Community rund Open Project, ja, das die gab's ja eigentlich am Anfang gar nicht.\n\nUnd die heute ist die Open Source Community unter Open Project eigentlich was anderes, als man sich so romantischerweise vorstellt. Es sind eigentlich die Kunden, die Erweiterungen an Open Project finanziert haben und drangeblieben sind. Das ist die Open Source Community, ne. Das es geht ums Entwickeln von Software, die Organisation dient. Organisation ist kein Hobbybereich, ne.\n\nDas ist da da entwickelt niemand irgendwie fiese Prozessoptimierung, Geschäftsprozesse abbilden und und Kostenerfassung und Exporte, Importe. Das das passiert nicht im Hobbybereich, ist nicht so wie bei Nextcloud, ne. Nextcloud, jeder braucht mal den Fileserver, Fotos hochladen, Dateien teilen oder so was. Das das bei bei Open Proteyge ist das anders. Unsere Community ist also mehr aus diesem Kunden heraus.\n\nGenau, aber diese Community existierte. Und was wollten die eigentlich von uns, ne? Die wollten dann häufig eigentlich, dass die Software bei ihnen aufm Server läuft. Siemens wollte das. Die, na oder ja, eigentlich alle Kunden, die zu uns kamen, die wollten's eigentlich auf ihren in ihren Rechenzentrumzentren laufen lassen.\n\nUnd diese dort haben wir dann irgendwann angefangen halt 'n Produkt zu Ist\n\nSpeaker 0: das son, sorry, wenn ich da kurz unterbreche. Ist das son deutsches Mittelstandsproblem? So, dass aber wir wir wollen das hier nicht als Software Service einkaufen, sondern wir wollen das auf unsere Infrastruktur und unter unserer und unter unserer Kontrolle. Ist das Ja. Ist das was son kulturelles Ding?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das ist nicht nur Mittelstand, ne. Also Du wir haben auch namhafte Autohersteller, die das machen. Die auf die sagen, nee, es gibt no way, dass wir unsere Daten bei Amazon reingeben. Nee, wie lang, passiert nicht, ja. Bisschen was anderes ist irgendwie die Bahn oder so was, ne, die die Eisenbahn bei uns, die Deutsche, die die hat da nicht so Probleme, aber so ne Mittelstand und auch Großunternehmen in Deutschland, wenn die halt Industriegeheimnisse haben, das ist völlig klar, dass das nicht auf amerikanische Server geht oder auf amerikanisch kontrollierte Server geht.\n\nAlso es, weißt Du, bei Siemens damals, die die haben da son Ding, das ist 'n rechtensamt, das heißt Eagle, cooler Name. Das das das war immer 'n Riesenthema, da irgendwie Zugang zu bekommen und da Sachen deployen zu können. Ja, also das das das glaubt man irgendwie so als irgendwie, ich weiß nicht, wenn jetzt son Rails Entwickler kennt, vielleicht die Rooku oder so was, ne, wo Du einfach mal son eine Railsapplikationen deployen kannst, ohne irgendwie mal 'n Server gesehen zu haben oder so was. Das war mir immer fremd, ja? Das ist das war eine Welt, die die hab ich nicht verstanden.\n\nIch fand die erstens teuer, ja? Zweitens dacht ich mir, wo wo läuft das Zeug eigentlich und wie kontrolliere ich das? Also ich war immer so auch, dass ich gesagt hab, na ja, natürlich muss ich die Hardware irgendwie verstehen, das Linux installieren und keine Ahnung was. Und für unsere Kunden war es dann halt für die großen, wichtigen Kunden, die das strategisch eingesetzt haben, war es halt auch 'n Thema. Und dann hast Du dann so 2 Wachstumskurven.\n\nDie eine Wachstumskurve ist sozusagen unser SARS Business, ja, also dieses Open Project läuft bei uns aufm Server, das war damals echt noch so, Amazon und tatsächlich mit all dem fiesen Überwachungskram, die man damals in der Start up Bubble so verwendet hat. Also Cookie, weiß nicht mehr, wie es heißt, also son son Ding, wo Du eigentlich zugucken kannst, wo Leute klicken, ja? Oder Google Analytics war da auch noch mit drauf, Hubspot, ja? Also lauter, fieses, übelstes Zeug, was Menschen komplett überwacht, ja? Das war alles dann auch noch so drin, die hatten gar nicht so das Bewusstsein dafür und das ist hat sich bei uns entwickelt tatsächlich, ja.\n\nWir dachten also, man baut so heute SARSanwendung. Alle machen das so. Macht man so, gehört so. Man muss ja wissen, was da passiert. Aber letzten Endes waren wir halt auch zu blöd oder nicht fähig genug, all diese vielen Daten auszuwerten.\n\nNe, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt ist ja Open Project, ich mein, es steht ja schon im Name. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja,\n\nSpeaker 0: es ist irgendwie quelloffen. Und wenn das als Fork von Redbine angefangen hat, dann ist ja auch klar, warum es offen ist, ne. Ich mein, wenn Du wenn Du Open Source da da nutzt, dann musst Du das ja irgendwie auch teilweise wieder selbst veröffentlichen so. Wann oder oder war das überhaupt jemals sone bewusste Entscheidung bei euch dann zu sagen, na ja, das ist Teil von unserer Identität, dass das halt eben offen ist und jeder damit rummachen kann oder war das eher son son son Nebeneffekt, weil es halt von Red Mine gekommen ist und gar nicht sone bewusste Entscheidung war so? Wie wie hat sich das entwickelt, dass wenn ich mir heute\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, das ist die\n\nSpeaker 0: Open Project Webseite angucke, ne, da ist es ja schon sehr prominent so und ist ja auch cool. Ja. Aber ich kann mir auch vorstellen, dass das nicht immer so war.\n\nSpeaker 1: Nee, das ist\n\nSpeaker 0: der Weg dahin vielleicht ein ein nichtlinearer war.\n\nSpeaker 1: Nee, überhaupt nicht. Das ist son Emanzipationsprozess irgendwie. Also das da da muss ich einen Denken und einen einen einen einen auch son Wertekonzept hat sich dann hat sich dann entwickelt. Also ich versuch das, das mal son bisschen noch mal zu schreiben. Also wir sind ja da auf einmal in son Business reingekommen, weil wir Open Source einfach mal hernehmen konnten und damit einen Headstart hatten, ne.\n\nWir konnten einfach dieses web min nehmen und hatten das schon einen völlig vollständig funktionierendes System, was wir nur erweitert haben. Das heißt, das Business wurde dadurch ermöglicht. Wir haben Open Source genommen, unser Business zu starten, unbewusst, ob es da funktioniert, ja. Das und das war halt also einen Zufall, aber das das das Du kannst jedes Open Source Framework oder oder Produkt nehmen und überlegen, dass Du da mit 'n Business startest, egal was, ja. Du legst dir gut.\n\nWeil ist aufwendig, sone Community aufzubauen und son son son Produkt zu pflegen, aber es geht und das ist krass.\n\nSpeaker 0: Du machst da 'n interessanten Punkt auf, ne? Weil also ich hab so was noch nie gemacht und ich glaube auch nicht, dass der Großteil der Open Source Community jemandem böse wäre, wenn man da son Open Source Projekt nimmt und dann versucht das irgendwie zu kommeralisieren, weil das ist ja Teil der Spielregeln, ne? Jeder kann deine Sachen nehmen und damit eben eben was machen. Aber gab's da son Moment, wo die, ich sag mal, bestehende Redmine Community vielleicht so auf euch drauf geguckt hat und gesagt hat so, boah, das ist aber nicht so nett, dass die hier unsere Arbeit nehmen und damit irgendwie Geld verdienen wollen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, Geld verdienen wollten dort viele in dem Umfeld, die haben dann halt SARS Businesses drum gebaut und waren damit vielleicht 'n\n\nSpeaker 0: bisschen Schlaf\n\nSpeaker 1: von mir.\n\nSpeaker 0: Gängiger.\n\nSpeaker 1: Nicht aber unbedingt der Originalgründer. Von dem weiß ich nicht genau, wie er finanziert war. Das tut mir leid, da hab ich die Infos nicht. Dem würd ich das nicht unterstellen. Der hat einfach sein Ding gemacht, so was birgt er das für mich?\n\nNee, also da ging's echt noch so Hardcore darum, dass man halt son Wettbewerbsvorteil hat und deswegen hat man das hinter seinem Server sozusagen gehostet, angeboten und gar nicht den Code mehr dann rausgerückt. Das war so das das Anfangsding. Und und man hat halt son Wettbewerbsvorteil, wo man schon 'n fertiges Produkt hat, was man auf Server stellen konnte, sozusagen dieses Freerider Konzept, ne, nennt man das son bisschen abwertend heutzutage, Freerider. Und ich wäre jetzt auch nicht happy, wenn Leute Open Rider immer folgen würden jetzt, ne. Und die waren bestimmt auch nicht happy darüber, dass wir gefolgt haben.\n\nUnd wir haben auch nicht leichtfertig gefolgt, weil wir wussten, wie viel Arbeit der Trend steckt. Es ging halt nur nicht weiter. Wir konnten halt für unsere Kunden nicht die Features umsetzen, die sie brauchten, die sie uns gefragt haben. Und hatten wir halt die Wahl, ne? Und irgendwann haben wir halt gesagt, jetzt ist der Punkt, jetzt pauken wir.\n\nEs ist nicht leicht, wenn wir wochenlang, monatelang darüber diskutiert, wie wir das machen, wie wir's kompatibel behalten mit Redmine und so weiter, dass wir da zusammenfinden und gegenseitig ergänzen und so was, ja. Das das wir wollten dort nicht Red Mine irgendwie gegen Schienbein treten oder so was. Das war nicht unsere Absicht, aber wir wollten halt unsere unsere, ja, die die Kundenbedürfnisse befriedigen und das das ging einfach nicht mehr. Das war zu kompliziert.\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt ist ja, also Software Developer gibt's ja schon einige da draußen, auch wenn die Leute sagen, es gibt immer noch nicht genug. Und jede jede Firma steht ja son bisschen im Talentwettbewerb bei der Personalsuche miteinander. Ja. Die Tatsache, dass ihr da jetzt eben auf Open Source setzt. Ist das für euch gefühlt in dem Bereich, was Hiring angeht, ein Wettbewerbsvorteil oder 'n Wettbewerbsnachteil?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ganz klar Vorteil. Ganz klar Vorteil. Das und das merkt man auch in der Geschichte. Also früher war's für uns nicht so leicht, Personal zu finden, weil wir auch diese Open Source Karte gar nicht so ausgespielt haben. Ich bleib mal son bisschen Ja, vielleicht\n\nSpeaker 0: einmal zur Einordnung da vorher. Wie wie viele seid ihr grade so im Team, aktuell?\n\nSpeaker 1: Wir sind so über 50.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Über 50, ja. Können wir auch noch mal drüber reden. Die ja, die die die Früher war das sehr, sehr schwer. Rays Entwickler waren halt immer schon sehr gefragt von Anfang an. Die hatten halt diese Eigenschaften, dass sie ja wie Software Craftventship einfach\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Gemeinsam als Entwicklercommunity so so haben, ne. Das war das war völlig klar. Rails Code kommt halt auch mit Tests daher, ja oder die Themen Themen wie Design, auch das ganze Design Thinking war damals auch total en vogue und so was. Also es das das kam irgendwie son, da gab's eine große Homogenität bei den Menschen dort, wie wie Software gebaut werden sollte. Und das war 'n sehr, sehr hohes Niveau, wenn's vergleichst mit, es bitte nicht falsch verstehen, aber typischerweise, wenn Leute mit PHP angefangen haben, dann haben die das so gemacht, wie ich damals Actionscript 3 gelernt hat, ja.\n\nAlso das das das das da war kein kein Craftsonship dahinter am Anfang. Die haben natürlich auch Frameworks entwickelt und haben dann nachgezogen. Aber die Kultur von von Anfang an sehr saubere, Architekturen aufzubauen im Sinne so wie ein Schreiner einen Tisch zusammenbaut nach den gleichen Verfahren und den gleichen Methoden und Qualitätsstandards, damit nicht einfach mal dort wo eine Schraube reinkommen soll, was weiß ich nicht, eine eine Nagel reingeheimer, sondern da muss eine Schraube rein, fertig, ja. Das das das war halt bei Rails auch ja, ich glaub, stärker vertreten als bei anderen, weil gab's ja noch JTVI und so was, also die großen Java Enterprise Edition. Das war so zu abgehoben.\n\nDas war nicht genug. Will sagen, diese Entwickler waren halt sehr gefragt und es war schwer, die zu bekommen. Das heißt, eigentlich haben wir sie an der Uni abgeworben und ausgebildet damals und oder an der Uni schon rein angeworben und und und ausgebildet. Und mit der Zeit hat sich's dann aber verändert. Also die unsere Geschichte ging ja dann noch so weiter, dass dann halt der, dass dieses Arbeiten für Geld, für eine Open Source Code irgendwann auch dafür gesorgt hat, dass immer mehr Open Source veröffentlicht wurde und Leute uns einfach installiert haben, unsere Software und dann zu uns kamen und dann Hilfe brauchten.\n\nUnd dann haben wir halt dort 'n Produkt drauf gebaut, nämlich eben grade diese Subscriptions, Support, Hilfe, ne und so weiter. Und das ist das, die Kurve ist halt schneller gewachsen als die SARS Produkt. Ergänzt sich aber interessanterweise supertoll, liebe 2 Sachen, SARS und und On Premise Produkte, damit die hin- und her tauschen kann. Das kann ich auch noch mal erzählen. Supercoole Sache.\n\nUnd dann haben wir halt auch tatsächlich angefangen, das das zu verstehen, ne, das das besser zu verstehen. Und dann haben wir angefangen, alle alle unnötige Cookies runterzuschmeißen. Wir haben keinen Cookie Banner bei uns auf der Webseite, aber wir halt nix tracken. Wir haben keinen Google Analytics mehr, keinen Hubspot mehr. Wir nehmen alles so, Open Source Software für die Sachen, die man so braucht.\n\nKein Google Analytics hab ich schon gesagt, ne. Und und damit kommt dann halt auch irgendwie auf son Bewusstsein, so sone Art digitales, ja veganes Leben so, ja, also digital vegan. Das ist son bisschen, man kann sagen, okay, man kann sich die Hose auch mit dabei sein anziehen, aber irgendwie macht das Spaß, ja. Es ist irgendwie cool. Es ist das Richtige, das so zu machen, ja.\n\nDas ist nicht cool, Leuten dabei zu zugucken, wie sie Texte eingeben, ja. Das ist nicht schön, das ist das ist Privatbereich, das ist nicht richtig, das zu tun. Und Leuten denen die Möglichkeit zu geben, dass sie im Privaten arbeiten können, dass dass sie auf ihren eigenen Rechnungen arbeiten können. Und ja, das begeistert halt tatsächlich auch Entwickler dann, die sehen dann, okay, Open Source, wow, alles, was ich tue, bleibt stirbt ja gar nicht damit, wenn mein Ruby and Rails Start-up irgendwie die Finanzierungsrunde ausgeht, sondern ich kann's weiterverwenden, dass das das ist für viele viel wert, ja. Also es ist für viele nicht nur wert, a da zu arbeiten, sondern, ja, wenn Du von Shopify kommst oder so was, bist auch bereit dafür, einen, weiß ich nicht, dessen 'n kleineres Gehalt erzeugt, dass den Shopify sehr, sehr hohe Gehälter, wenn sie dafür halt an etwas sinnstiftendem Arbeiten können.\n\nUnd haben wir häufiger gehört und macht mich sehr stolz, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Als jemand, der von Shopify gekommen ist, kann ich das bestätigen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ah, okay, cool. Bist Du in dieser krassen Wachstumsblase dort reingekommen, wo die so megafett hochgezogen haben und keiner mehr wusste, worum sie eigentlich im Laden sind und was sie arbeiten sollen?\n\nSpeaker 0: Also ich hab, so als kurze Randnotiz, ich hab glaube ich so beides erlebt. Ich hab das das Ende von diesem Wachstumsboom, der so auch mit Corona kam, ne? Hab ich mitbekommen Und dann den Anfang von dieser in großen Techfirmen werden jetzt einfach alle Leute rausgeschmissen\n\nSpeaker 1: Ah, klar.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ballert. So, ja? Also ich hab im Prinzip so einen einen Tidenhup einmal mitgemacht.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Es war war ganz interessant so. Ja, aber das nur Mega. Jetzt, weil weil Du grade auch so die die Rails Architektur und so das Mindset irgendwie in der Community angesprochen hast. Rails hat sich ja in den letzten 10 Jahren auch schon sehr verändert, ja? Also Ja.\n\nIch glaub, also das klingt vielleicht zu viel. Wenn man heute Raids anguckt, sieht man immer noch das Raids auch von damals so, aber wieso sich das ganze Ökosystem auch drumherum einfach entwickelt hat, ne? Da gab's irgendwie mal so den Hype hin zu Single Page Applications, Oh ja. Und und überhaupt so.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und dann war ja Rails mit 1 der ersten, die so gesagt haben, na ja, wir kommen von diesem Server Side Rendering und wir wollen das irgendwie auch wieder weiter nutzen oder wieder wieder forcieren. Da kamen dann so Sachen wie wie Hotwire und irgendwie Live Components und irgendwie so was alles dazu. Nehmt ihr so was dann mit oder sagt ihr einfach, na ja, unsere Kunden sind vielleicht jetzt auch eher größere Konzerne und müssen nicht gleich jeden Hype irgendwie mitmachen und wir setzen da lieber mal was aus oder wie wie verhält sich das?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, das ist eine saugute Frage. Also wir haben dann, ich hatte ja erzählt, dass wir da so versucht hatten, über besseres UI uns aufm Markt zu positionieren als das enterprisefigere und und und userfreundlichere Alternative zu Redmine quasi. Und das war genau das, was Du grade beschrieben hast. Die Leute haben mal irgendwie erwartet, dass Du son Rich Frontend baust. Das war so dieses Facebook Feeling, ne.\n\nWeißt Du, was Du das Facebook zum ersten Mal verwendet hast im Gegensatz zu StudiVZ? Also es war irgendwie der\n\nSpeaker 0: Oh. Muss man für die für die Jüngeren auch wieder StudiVZ erklären, weiß ich nicht.\n\nSpeaker 1: Oder Lokalisten, ja. Das Oh,\n\nSpeaker 0: jetzt hören Sie mal, wer kennt wen? So jetzt, jetzt holen wir mal die ganzen alten Netzwerke raus, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. War auf einmal so eine Erwartung dahinter, dass Du halt auf Knopf drückst, dann dass sich die Caption sozusagen des Knopfes verändert und solche solche Niceskeiten, ja, dass ein Spinner aufm Knopf sich dreht und so was. Genau, und da kam dann diese auf einmal diese von diesen großen Konzernen aufgebauten Frameworks Angela, JS und so. Die haben wir dann eingesetzt und haben auch über das gehört ja, boah, Du musst hier dieses dieses Front and bauen Rails wird eigentlich zu sonem Art API Backend. Haben wir gemacht, jahrelang probiert, haben's nie geschafft, zu 'ner Single Payage Application zu kommen, weil's Redman halt so krass groß schon war und Open Projekt damit auch groß war und man kann nicht mal eben irgendwie alles umbauen.\n\nMan muss das API bauen, muss das Frontend bauen. Ja, das ist aber eigentlich letzten Endes, der der der der was ist der, ja, der der Zustand 1 Anwendung wurde sehr, sehr unklar, ne? Was ist was ist, welche Daten hast Du im Backend? Welche hast Du im Frontend? Führt eigentlich dazu, dass Du im Frontend die ganze Zeit irgendwie alle Daten sich jetzt sicherheitshalber nachlädst und aktualisierst, weil Du eigentlich nicht weißt, was im Frontend so los ist.\n\nDas Frontend Code war, obwohl wir da English as und dann Englishier und so weiter gemacht haben, wurde der irgendwie immer fieser, immer schlimmer. Und der Vorteil und es wurd auch nicht schneller\n\nSpeaker 0: Diese Zunge würden behaupten, das liegt vielleicht nicht an der Tatsache, obwohl ihr Angela benutzt habt, sondern weil ihr Angela benutzt habt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Weiß ich nicht, wahrscheinlich gab's damals noch nicht und so was. Vielleicht wäre das 'n bisschen dichter dran gewesen. Ich will auch nicht zu doll drüber jaulen. Wir haben damit, was wir dadurch bekommen haben, ist 'n extremst vielfältig einsetzbares API. Ja, alles, was Du übers Frontend mit Arbeitspaket, was unsere machen kannst, das kannst Du übers API machen.\n\nDu kannst sogar dir die das das Schema zu einem Formular, mit dem Du halt dein vollfrei konfiguriertes Arbeitspaket sozusagen aufbauen möchtest, weil die ganzen Felder, die Du in sonem Arbeitspaket tracken möchtest, kannst hast ja eigentlich deinen eigenen Customfilds und so was. Dazu brauchst Du ja irgendwie 'n Schema und musst 'n Formular bauen können und das API gibt dir diese Informationen. Was sind erlaubte Werte auf dem Feld, ja oder so was. Wir haben extrem wichtiges API dadurch bekommen, aber wir hatten halt auch so was wie dann 'n Frontend Team und und das nicht von dem Team, das den ganzen Rest gemacht hat. Irgendwie pragmatisch, wir waren aber auch immer noch Arbeiter, alle Admin Settings und so weiter, ganz klassisch, backend gerendert und so was.\n\nJedenfalls, da gab's dann immer dieses Ding, okay, Du brauchst 'n Backend brauchst Du eine gewisse Logik, Du brauchst im Frontend eine Logik, da musst Du das dafür, was sehr, sehr war, musstest Du dafür erst mal spezifizieren aus 2 Teams, die aufeinander irgendwie warten, sich blockieren und so weiter. Es war ekelhaft. Es hat keinen Spaß gemacht. Also als jemand, der einfach etwas durchziehen möchte, dass ein ein Mensch Verantwortung hat, von vorne bis hinten ein Feature durch durchzuhauen, auch glücklich zu sein als Entwickler. Also Selbstwirksamkeit ist ja kein kleines Ding für uns.\n\nAlso es, Du musst ja doch irgendwie auch fertig werden und dich drüber freuen, was Du gebaut hast und mit mit dieser dieser Aufteilung zwischen Front- und dem Backend Team, das war irgendwie frustrierend. Das war nicht schön, hat keinen Spaß gemacht. Und ja, und dann kam halt genau, was Du gesagt hast, Hotwire wieder und und bei uns spitzten sich die Ohren, weil es hat sich so angefühlt wie, oh, damit könnten wir wieder so bauen wie damals so. 2005, 2006. Jeder, eine Entwickler kann wieder ein ein ein ein Feature von vorne bis hinten ohne entwickeln, auch Einfluss aufs Produkt selbst nehmen, auf die Architektur nehmen und gibt nicht so viel.\n\nUnd auch der Softwarestack ist dann kleiner, sodass 'n Entwickler die noch lernen kann und aktualisieren kann. Also wir sind sehr, sehr stolz darauf, dass unser Softwarestack mit Trades immer mitgewachsen ist, immer aktualisiert worden ist. Dass wir an den Jams, die wir verwenden, also sind da so die, dass wir die halt auch mitpflegen, dass wir rein erstellen und so weiter, dass wir die mitentwickeln. Das ist halt, das das kannst Du nicht so\n\nSpeaker 0: Also ich versteh, was Du meinst. Die die Die klassischen die klassischen Ruby Entwickler, die freuen sich natürlich, dass die jetzt wieder quasi von vorne bis hinten son son Feature ounen können und und und durchziehen können so, ja? Und ich glaub auch, was Du gesagt hast, so diese diese Selbstwirksamkeit ist 'n super wichtiger Punkt, was so 'n Developer Experience und satisfaction irgendwie angeht, ja? So jeder arbeitet lieber an 'nem Projekt, das er selber anfangen und abschließen kann, anstatt irgendwie nur son kleines Rädchen in soner großen Maschine zu sein, ne? Ja.\n\nAber ihr hattet ja jetzt schon 'n Frontend Team. Und was habt ihr denn mit dem gemacht? Weil wenn Du jetzt, ne, von heut auf morgen da ankommst und sagst so, hey, diese Entwicklung oder diese diese Organisation getrennt, Frontend und Backend, das machen wir jetzt nicht mehr. Und die die Ruby Leute, die eben noch das Backend gemacht haben, die können jetzt wieder von vorne bis hinten alles machen. Du, lieber Angular Entwickler, also war das mehr so, da ist die Tür oder hier ist son dickes Buch, Ruby zu lernen?\n\nWie wie seid ihr da so organisatorisch mit den Leuten umgegangen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ist ganz witzig. Wir hatten gar nicht so ein großes Frontend Team und die Leute, die dort waren, das muss vielleicht auch noch mal Ich muss dann eine, ich hatte schon vorhin dieses Kulturthema angesprochen, ne? Rails hat eine sehr homogene Kultur. Und wenn Du dann halt 'n Frontend Team hast, was Angela macht und so weiter, das ist nicht so homogen. Das und das passt auch nicht unbedingt so direkt auf das auf das auf die die Rails Kultur.\n\nDas heißt, die waren auch immer son bisschen, wir waren immer mehrheitlich Rails Entwickler. Die die waren auch son bisschen isolierter und da gab's dann auch manchmal son bisschen Kulturclash. Nicht schlimm, wir kamen da irgendwie schon klar miteinander. Aber eigentlich waren auch viele Entwickler dann so, dass sie dann halt auch mal Angela gelernt haben oder megafrustriert waren. Und das heißt, als sie dann gesagt haben, wir stoppen jetzt die Weiterentwicklung von Angela Sachen, wir bauen investieren da nicht weiter, sondern wir bauen das eigentlich zurück und basierend auf den, oh, das ist das das Designsystems von GitHub Primer, ersetzen wir eigentlich diese Komponenten durch Standardkomponenten von ja, die auch bei GitHub eingesetzt wird.\n\nWas für GitHub funktioniert, funktioniert für uns auch, war so die Idee, ne. Und das das das hat nicht das hat nicht geknarscht. Die Leute hatten Angst, das hatten schon Sorge, ob dann wie das wie sonen Schwenk eigentlich funktionieren kann. Und da waren wir in sonem in in immer sone in der Schweiz gemietet. Grüße gehen raus und ungleich.\n\nUnd dort konnten wir alle mal zusammenführen und alle 'n ganz lange Liste machen mit allen Zweifel und Sorgen, was passieren würde, wenn wir Angela stoppen würden und auf Hardware umsteigen. Und dann sind wir die Liste haben wir aufgeschrieben und eine nach der anderen abgearbeitet. Und als dann nur noch irgendwie 4 Prozent auch offen war, haben wir gesagt, let's go, wir machen das. Und ja mega, mega. Also die Leute, die vorher Frontend gemacht haben und Backend und so weiter, die freuen sich halt tierisch drüber, dass sie jetzt Frontend da halt in machen können.\n\nKomponenten bauen, Komponenten Framework von GitHub übernehmen mit Primer, schöne Komponenten bauen, die die die gut aussehen und die dann auch zum Teil dann wieder von GitHub übernommen worden sind, ja, weil die halt auch gesehen haben, dass wir da mit Engineering Standards halt arbeiten und das macht einfach Spaß, ja. Das ist ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wenn wir schon über Engineering Culture sprechen, Du hast grade das ein Offsite angesprochen, wo sone Entscheidung getroffen wurde. Ihr seid 100 Prozent remote organisiert, ne? Hab ich Ja. Glaube ich, Genau. Nur zwischen den Zeilen gelesen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, wir haben sone Briefkastenfirma in in sonem Co Working in Berlin. Dort haben wir auch 'n Büro angemietet, wo ich glaub 2, 3 Leute sitzen, die in Berlin wohnen und manche können auch noch mal reinschneiden, aber ja, man braucht halt eine Adresse, ne. Ansonsten sind wir über die ganze Welt verteilt. Also ich ich bin in Spanien, haben Leute in Frankreich, England, Rumänien, Ukraine jetzt tatsächlich auch, weil wir die supporten stark, also ist, sind super Leute, aber halt auch, weil wir denken, dass es gut ist, wenn da Leute wenn wir dem was mitgeben können und die unterstützen können. Und in Kenia, Nairobi, in Nepal arbeiten wir zusammen.\n\nAlso überall dort, wo sich Leute für das Thema, was wir bauen, nämlich Open Project interessieren Und ob wir's draus machen wollen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich stell mir das am schwierigsten für diese eine Person in Nepal vor. Als jemand, der auch schon mal in 'nem sehr verteilten Team gearbeitet hat, ist ja, also ne, örtliche Distribution ist das eine, Zeitzonendistribution ist noch mal so das andere. Wie oder ist es ist das eine Challenge für euch?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, muss dazu sagen, dass das Team in Nepal, das ist ein, sind nicht direkt wir, das ist ein Unternehmen, mit dem wir zusammenarbeiten und die machen für uns die Nextcloud Integration. Also die App dazu, die bei NextInextcloud läuft. PHP Code ist nicht unser Gebiet. Und da haben wir dann eher son, ja, son son son son Supplier Verhältnis, wobei wir mit denen schon so lange zusammenarbeiten, dass das irgendwie man nicht mehr so richtig fühlt, ne. Das die gehören schon irgendwie dazu.\n\nOkay. Genau und das ist 'n Problem natürlich, aber weil die halt sowieso unabhängig aufgestellt sind, ist an der Stelle nicht ganz so schlimm. Aber wir müssen schon unsere Termine jetzt sehr, sehr früh am Morgen machen, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, also ich ich war mal in 'nem Team, wo wir aufgeteilt waren zwischen Deutschland, Irland, der amerikanischen Ostküste, der amerikanischen Westküste und Australien Boah. Und quasi irgendjemand eigentlich immer lieber geschlafen hätte, anstatt in irgendwelchen Meetings zu setzen. Ja. Egal, zu welcher Uhrzeit man das macht.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, da gibt's auch unterschiedliche Kulturen, ne. Da gibt's Leute, die sind so voll auf Digital Nomad Kultur. Kultur, wo es dann eigentlich heißt, alle Kommunikation muss asynchron sein, irgendwie textbasiert. Das haben wir nicht, ne. Das\n\nSpeaker 0: Nee, wir hatten das damals auch nicht. So, wir haben schon versucht, viel auch synchron zu machen und hatten dann das Glück, dass zum Beispiel ich hier in Deutschland eine Nuteule bin und unser Kollege in Australien superfrüh aufgestanden ist, weil er gerne noch surfen gehen wollen würde, bevor er dann richtig mitm Arbeiten anfängt. Also es war richtig klischeemäßig, ja?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Und\n\nSpeaker 0: dann haben wir halt immer sonen guten Slot gefunden, der für alle irgendwie passt. Aber das hat schon auch sone gewisse Latenz halt eingeführt, ne? Weil Du machst 'n Purry Quest und bis der vielleicht mal bei der richtigen Person irgendwie hochgekommen ist, da gehen halt mal so 24 Stunden, rotieren sozusagen einmal einmal durch.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. Und dann machst Du dann eine Veränderung, irgendwie kommt dein Review zurück und dann dauert's wieder 24 Stunden und so weiter. Und das ist son son Rhythmus, der macht einfach nicht so viel Spaß, ne. Es ist das ist frustrierend, wenn Du einfach 'n kleines Ding reinbekommen möchtest in den Chor und dann dauert das irgendwie lange. Also es, Wir versuchen da schon Möglichkeiten zu haben, drück auf den Knopf, da rufst Du an und dann machst Du kurz eine Besprechung per Programming, was auch immer Du grade brauchst.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und diese gemeinsamen Offsides, ist das son Werkzeug, das ihr häufiger nutzt oder war das jetzt sone Ausnahmesituation, weil ihr eben kritische Entscheidungen treffen wolltet? Wie wie versucht ihr so dieses Remote Thema son bisschen anzugehen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, das ist ganz witzig, weil wenn wir jetzt so remote sind, Du siehst ja immer nur dieses dieses Rechteck von jemandem, ne, und weiß gar nicht, ob der Mensch eine Hose an hat oder nicht.\n\nSpeaker 0: Du weißt auch, also ich fand das damals bei Shopify so krass, wenn ich dann Leute das erste Mal in echt getroffen hab, so Größe. Größe ist son Thema, das kann man unglaublich falsch einschätzen. Und dann stand ich das erste Mal vor 'nem Kollegen, mit dem ich schon, weiß ich nicht, Dutzende Male hunderte Stunden verbracht hab so, ja? Und er ist 3 Köpfe kleiner, also ich denk mir so, ich hätte dich niemals erkannt, wenn Du mir auf der Straße begegnet wärst und ich hätte nicht wüsste, dass dass das Du bist, so, ne.\n\nSpeaker 1: Vielleicht hätte ich ja oder weniger ernst genommen, wenn ich vielleicht das Tor gewusst. Na ja, so nee nee, ist schon echt witzig. Also genau das passiert. Also wenn man das einmal im Jahr holen wir die ganze Firma zusammen, dann machen wir wirklich so 3 Tage lang kein Programm, außer halt so Teambuilding Programms segeln gehen und Geocaching und Spiele spielen und alles Mögliche, also wirklich explizit einfach nur gemeinsam abhängen. Und das ist schon sehr, sehr interessant, wenn Du zum ersten Mal halt wirklich die Menschen dann vor dir hast, die dann im letzten Jahr eingestellt worden sind oder so was, ja.\n\nDas das unglaublich wichtig, ne. Da da da zehrt die Organisation sehr erfahren, dort gemeinsam halt eher gespielt und gelacht und gealbert zu haben, ja. Ist ja, sehr wichtig. Da kommen die aus aus aus aus den USA, aus aus damals auch Panama und von über räumen wir die Leute her. Das ist eine und das andere, was wir halt auch merken, ist, wenn Du son bisschen kompliziertere Sachen hast, wenn wir halt einen Hackathon haben oder so was, ne, das das setzt immer ganz eine Energien frei.\n\nWenn wir Menschen zusammenführen, unterschiedliche Disziplinen zusammenbringen, halt kürzester Zeit, was weiß ich, für die französische Regierung eine Integration zu bauen mit dem deutschen Open Desk, das Open Desk und dem französischen, LaSuuite im Hackathon, dann dann spürst Du da auch eine ganz andere Energie, als wenn Du immer nur Ribbonhood arbeitest. Also diese Energie, davon zehren dann auch die die Beziehungen und das Vertrauen und aber auch der Stress, den man gemeinsam so durchlebt. Das Vertrauen, wir schaffen das gemeinsam, das ist unglaublich wichtig, solche Momente zu haben.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wie oft im Jahr macht ihr, also hast Du schon gesagt, ne, so Offsite macht ihr Eimer und diese Hackathons, so an größeren Sachen zu arbeiten. Wie oft passiert so was?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, noch nicht oft genug da tatsächlich. Also abgesehen von diesem einen offsite haben wir noch so Sachen gemacht, das nennen wir Passion Time, also ein bis 2 Wochen lang darf jeder an den Dingen arbeiten, die sie für, weiß ich nicht, für sie Passion haben, ja. Und dann\n\nSpeaker 0: Abseits von eurem Projekt auch oder an eurem Projekt?\n\nSpeaker 1: Schon an unserem Projekt, aber halt abseits der offiziellen Roadmap, ne. Okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und da passieren coole Sachen, was weiß ich, wir Comanlein Toolkonto die Ecke. Es kommt auf einmal irgend einen Back up Feature, was uns auf DevOps Leute die ganze Zeit haben folgten, was so noch nicht gab. Notification Center bei uns ist da da geboren. War man jetzt hier einfach dann auch mal Europe, die man sonst bestimmt nicht hat, ja, pausen kann, mal durchatmen und einfach mal neu denken, ja. Es gibt auch so Themen, die sind schwierig und deswegen schaffen sie's nicht so leicht auf die Roadmap.\n\nMan muss sie einfach mal knacken und dafür braucht man halt Menschen, die in unterschiedlichen Projekten eigentlich ja, nicht gefangen, aber ne. Also verplant sind, die braucht man halt mal dafür, so schwierige Sachen in der Architektur zu knacken. Und wenn Du dann wirklich mal so ein bis 2 Wochen Zeit dafür hast, dann schaffst Du ziemlich viel. Und das macht man dann auch auch dann zum zum Teil dann halt auch ja, vor Ort, ne, damit wo man sich dann trifft. Cool.\n\nDas ist aber so ein ein, zweimal, also insgesamt trifft man sich so ein, 2, dreimal, je nachdem, was für eine Rolle Du im im im in der Firma hast. Ich treff viel mehr Leute als in meiner Rolle als andere, aber wir versuchen, dass die Menschen sich schon sehen zwei-, dreimal im Jahr. Und die sind, die wollen das auch.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, versteh ich. Du hast eben schon gesagt, dass Du in Spanien sitzt. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Das ist\n\nSpeaker 0: ja vielleicht auch noch mal son ganz interessanter Schwenk. Wie und warum bist Du nach Spanien gekommen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, also meine Frau ist aus Spanien. Ich hab sie kennengelernt, weil mein Mitbewohner in Berlin, der hatte Erasmus in Finnland gemacht und hat sie dort kennengelernt. Dann haben wir seinen Geburtstag in Barcelona gefeiert und sie kam dann mal eben aus Mallorca rüber und haben uns kennengelernt. Und dann hatten wir eine lange Fernbeziehung. Sie kam dann nach nach Berlin und irgendwann haben wir gesagt, och, wir können doch auch nach Mallorca gehen.\n\nUnd das war zu der Zeit, wo's in Mallorca, da wurde grade der erste Co Coworking Center gegründet, ne. Und das da gab's noch keine Thai Restaurants, da gab's noch keine Burgerläden, da gab's noch keine Hipster Cafés auf auf in Palma, ja. Da gab's doch, da wurden grade Fahrradwege gebaut. Und genau und das das war mein Weg nach nach Spanien, weil wir halt auch schon remote arbeiten konnten.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das wär jetzt nämlich meine Frage gewesen so. Also in Spanien oder auf Mallorca zu sein, wenn da gerade die Infrastruktur entsteht, ist ja das eine, aber trotzdem bedingt es ja quasi einen Job hier in Deutschland, den Du quasi mitnehmen kannst oder eine Firma, für die das halt auch irgendwie wie wie funktioniert. Und Du hast, ihr wart da aber schon remote?\n\nSpeaker 1: Nee, eigentlich noch nicht, aber ich hab das son bisschen so als Speerspitze gemacht. Ich hab sogar auch Leute aus Berlin, da hab ich denen das Angebot gemacht, ey so, kommt kommt doch doch mal vorbei nach Mallorca, arbeiten wir hier zusammen. Das haben auch Leute angenommen. Da war so irgendwie ja, der der der Spaß, dass man halt in Flip Flops zur Arbeit geht und so was, ne. Das so diese diese Vorstellung.\n\nAber letzten Endes hat das gar nicht so sehr gezogen, ne. Die Menschen wollen eigentlich dort sitzen, wo sie sich wohlfühlen, wo ihre Familien sind in der Regel. Und Spanien als Ort zum Arbeiten hat sich gar nicht so durchgesetzt so. Jetzt jetzt so langsam kommen werden mehr Leute aus der Firma und wollen mal halt auch mal das Ausland ausprobieren und gehen dann halt nach Spanien. Deswegen hab ich auch eine spanische Gesellschaft gegründet unter Subgesellschaft.\n\nAber es ist jetzt nicht son Ding, ja, man könnte erwarten irgendwie so Sonnenschein und so weiter, das ist son Strand, das das Leute mehr nutzen würden, aber ist gar nicht so. Die Leute wollen ihre Familien und ihr ihr Umgebung haben.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und wenn Du wenn Du vor den ganzen Hipstern in Spanien angekommen bist,\n\nSpeaker 1: War der erste Hipster, keine Ahnung, der Ufer Hipster.\n\nSpeaker 0: Dann hast Du ja sicherlich noch eine ganz anderes Ökosystem, eine ganz andere Community vorgefunden, wie es jetzt ist. Ja, also wenn man heute an an Mallorca denkt, dann denkt man auch an Demonstrationen und zu viel Tourismus und Gentrifizierung für die Einheimischen und sowas. Wie wie hast Du das mitbekommen? Ist das was, was sich wirklich eher so dem dem Tourismus gegenüber entlädt oder bekommt man das so als, ich will nicht sagen digitaler Nomade, aber Du bist jetzt schon lang genug da, ne, aber als quasi jemand, der auf Mallorca wohnt, aber quasi international arbeitet, kriegt man das auch son bisschen mit oder gar ab?\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhm. Da soll ich das wie soll ich das sagen? Also erst mal nein. Erst mal kurz, dass ich würd sagen nein. Das das das gilt natürlich in den deutschen Medien, weil Mallorca so als siebzehntes Bundesland irgendwie immer so getiteliert wird, irgendwie wichtig ist.\n\nIn den Medien wird das 'n bisschen höher gepusht als es ist. Es gibt's aber, ja. Und es gibt auch 'n Grund. Also es ist, Mallorca hat seit den Fünfzehn- und Sechzigerjahren hat's 'n Tourismusboom und das ist die die das Epizentrum für eigentlich alle großen Tourismusunternehmen der Welt, ne. Die Karibik wurde zugepflastert von Unternehmen aus Mallorca.\n\nUnd hier sind große Tech Techunternehmen, die halt im im im Travel, im im Hospitality Fluggesellschaften, die haben oftmals ihre, heißt das auf Spanisch, Haupt Hauptsitz haben sie hier in in in in auf Mallorca. Das heißt, es gibt eine eine eine große Industrie und das Tourismus und die Menschen sind's gewohnt, dass Leute aus allen Herren, Ländern, gerade Deutschland nach Mallorca kommen. Die Deutschen glauben halt oftmals, die Leute werden alle Deutsch sprechen, aber ist halt nicht so. Du bist hier mitten in Spanien. Das ist, Du bist in Spanien, hier gibt's bei ja.\n\nHier gibt's mallyequinisches Essen und es gibt vor allem die mallyequinische Sprache und das wissen viele Leute auch nicht, ja. Das ist 'n wichtiges Ding. Katalanen, mit ja, die eigenen Dialekten auch paar eigenen Wörtern. Es gibt eine eigene mallokinische Kultur und richtig. Also das ist, das heißt, es gibt jede Menge Industrie.\n\nEs gibt hier, Palma ist eine kleine Großstadt, ja. Da gibt's 'n Metro, da gibt es alles Mögliche, was man sich vorstellen kann, auch son bisschen gechillter, ne. Son Regierungssitz hier für die für die Autonomie. Was es halt nicht so klar gab damals, dass so was man schon aus Berlin son bisschen dann zu dem Zeitpunkt dann losging, diese ganze Start-up. Wie soll man's sagen?\n\nSon Lifestyle oder halt auch dieses dieses Verständnis davon, das war nicht so gegeben, obwohl halt Unternehmen gegründet. Ich war der erste erste Mieter im ersten Co Working Center, ja, ja, so. Und hab dann denen Leuten auch geholfen, dann das Co Working Center so zum Erfolg zu bringen, weil sie etwas auch nicht wussten, ne. Die hat uns ausprobiert. Und genau und dann, weil's einfach so gefehlt hat, dann gab's eine Tech Community, da waren 4 Leute, die haben das angefangen.\n\nIch war dann irgendwie dann der Fünfte dann da drin und dann wurd's dann immer größer, sodass wir dann, das hieß dann Beta Beers, wo wir halt eben gegenseitig sonst irgendwie Sachen erzählt haben, die wir cool finden als Nerds. Und dann wurde es immer größer und die Themen wurden bereit. Da gab's auch bei meinem Mallorca JS und ich hab dann irgendwann auch Mallorca Start ups mitgegründet mit meinen guten Freunden und haben dann versucht, irgend sone Art Start up Community aufzubauen. Das waren dann irgendwie so Meetups und so von irgendwie 1200 Leute sich dann irgendwie subscribend haben. Also da da passierte schon etwas.\n\nLetzten Endes hat's mein Interesse halt gar nicht so, ja, ich weiß nicht, das ist zwar nicht mehr son Funding und so was, das verfolg ich gar nicht mehr, ne. Also bei Open Protect, die sind geboostrapt und haben kein Funding und deswegen, ich find dieses ganze Start up Spiel letzten Endes gar nicht mehr so interessant und spannend.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und ist diese Szene trotzdem noch was, was passiert oder hat sich das mittlerweile auch son bisschen abgeebbt? Also Du bist ja nicht deswegen dahin. Du hast es ja quasi nur organisch beobachtet und mitbekommen oder so.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, von mitgemacht, ne, weil ich Bock drauf hatte, Leute zu treffen, die irgendwie nicht tickten, ne.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Aber wenn ich jetzt heute quasi frisch dazustoßen würde, ich sag jetzt hier, oh hier, dieses Bayern, das ist mir viel zu kalt, ja. Ich will jetzt irgendwie auch nach nach Spanien und der W-Land hat gesagt, so, Palma ist cool. Was was würde mich da erwarten heute?\n\nSpeaker 1: Aber ich glaube, da fragst Du tatsächlich den Falschen, weil ich mir halt so zurückgezogen habe. Ich bin den ganzen Tag irgendwie 8 Stunden in Videokonferenzen und ich hab mein mein meinen sozialen Austausch mit der Rest der Welt. Bin gar nicht so am Laufen. Ich weiß, dass die dieselben Akteure wie damals es immer wieder noch noch mal neu probieren, irgendwie Business Angels Club und so weiter. Es gibt natürlich jede Menge Co Working Center.\n\nIch würde vermuten, dass Du da schnell in Kontakt kommst mit Leuten, aber keine Ahnung, ich treff jetzt eigentlich die spannenden Kontakte eher beim Sport, beim Laufen, beim Krafttraining und so was, die dann einfach hier direkt nebenan irgendwie in Straße weiterwohnen und irgendwie krasses AI Zeug machen mit 'nem 1 in Architekturbranche oder so was. Und dann aufm Spielplatz mit Kindern und so weiter haben wir dann halt unsere Unterhaltungen dazu. Wo muss wissen, ob welcher Teil der Insel man sich sozusagen dann niederlässt, wo man halt Leute dann, ich sagt man, in der Sauna trifft oder so. Aber Du kommst superschnell in Kontakt. Also das ist sehr, sehr easy, dass Du da auf deine Kosten kommst.\n\nWillst Du das Berliner Start up Leben haben? Ja, dann bist Du ja vielleicht nicht ganz richtig, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Cool. Ich glaub, das Berliner Start up Leben brauch ich auch gar nicht so. Okay. Dann vielleicht 2 Fragen, die ich immer zum Schluss stelle. Die erste Frage ist, wenn Du deinem sehr viel jüngeren Ich das grade erst anfängt und vielleicht grade an der Uni den ersten Job wieder geschmissen hat, einen einen wichtigen Rat geben könntest, was würdest Du ihm mitgeben?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich glaub, also das einerseits ist der Riecher für dafür, dass das Wichtigste ist, dass dass Du eine Sprache in deinem Team auf baust geteilt wird, also dass dass man sich versteht, dass ich halt am Anfang des Studiums schon hatte, dass man das nicht ausm Auge verliert, weil darin ist die Kraft vom vom Teamwork drin. Das würd ich den Leuten sagen. Ich würde auch sagen, Teamwork ist immer viel, viel cooler als alleine zu arbeiten. Ich hab das auch mal eine Zeit lang gemacht, hab leider gearbeitet, da lernt man viel, aber hat eine ganz andere Power. Man ist einfach viel befriedigender.\n\nEgo hinten anstellen und sich aufs Ziel fokussieren und auch Bedürfnisse anderer ernster nehmen und nicht nur seinen Kopf durchsetzen. Ich glaub, das wäre wichtig, dass dass dass man halt auch mal agree to to disagree, dass es als Team wichtiger ist, als nur sein eigenes Ding durchzuziehen. Dass es 'n Wert hat, gemeinsam an etwas dranzubleiben, auch wenn man nicht immer der derselben Meinung ist. Das ist ja, wenn man sein Ego bisschen im Check hat, sich mal hinterfragt, ist das das ist gut. Also ich hab Respekt vor Leuten, die Kehrtwindung machen können, die Meinungen ändern können, ja, die das einfach auch mal hinnehmen können, dass man anderer Meinung ist und im Team hast Du's immer, Grade bei Korrekturen, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Was ist die eine Frage, die ich dich noch nicht gefragt hab, wo Du dich, weiß ich nicht, super vorbereitet hast oder unbedingt gerne drüber sprechen wolltest und jetzt dachte ich, oh, jetzt sitzen wir anderthalb Stunden. Und der hat mich nicht einmal zu dem Thema x y was gefragt. Ich wollte doch unbedingt darüber sprechen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich hab ich\n\nSpeaker 0: Das ist jetzt deine Chance.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ich hab das 'n anderen Hut auf. Ich bin ich bin ja zwar CTO von Open Project und bin da irgendwie für verantwortlich, aber ist eine Komponente im open Desk, 'n souveränen Arbeitsplatz der öffentlichen Verwaltung vom Zendis, also vom Bund. Und da sind wir eine Komponente von 8, da ist zum Beispiel Element der der Chat, ne. Ist das Für das Matrix Ding, ne. Matrix, genau, super.\n\nJa. 'N cooles Zeug, Open Exchange für Mail und Kalender, Next Cloud, 'n richtig großes boomendes Unternehmen, ist dafür falz zuständig. XWiki aus Frankreich, die machen halt im Prinzip ja, schon ewig lange machen sie sie Wiki Software und und sind Konkurrent von Confluence. Wir alle zusammen machen da diesen open Desk. Und was mir da bei dem Thema halt sehr, sehr wichtig ist, ist, dass man nichts sagt, okay, open Desk ist jetzt 'n gemein, also ich hab eine gemeinsames Look empfehlen, gemeinsam Namen.\n\nDass wir nicht, dass wir darüber hinausgehen, dass wir wirklich diese Open Source Anwendungen integrieren, sodass dann 1 plus 1 gleich 3 ist, ja? Also dass dass wir die Dinge miteinander verzahnen, zusammenspielen lassen, gemeinsam einen Wert stiften lassen. Und das ist eine Integrationsarbeit, die ist nicht leicht, weil Du hast 8 unterschiedliche Unternehmen, die eine eigene Roadmap oder eigenes System haben, auch 'n kleines bisschen im Nons, 'n anderes Businessmodell. Und und trotzdem sind wir uns eigentlich alle einig, es gilt Microsoft und Google, ja denen eine da was danebenzustellen, was mächtiger ist als als das, was die bieten, ne. Weil wir einfach Open Source sind.\n\nMan kann das an erweitern. Man kann andere Use Cases, die ein ein ein ein werbefinanziertes Unternehmen vielleicht nicht nicht machen würde, ja. Wir können andere Sachen machen. Wir können coolere Sachen machen. Aber die haben halt alle immer diesen Single Sign on und man ist ja einmal drin und dann sind die Sachen miteinander verzahnt.\n\nUnd das müssen wir halt auch hinbekommen. Und das mache ich in im Open Desk sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr viel, dass ich darum mich drum bemühe, dass wir auf offene Standards setzen für den für die Authentifizierung zum Beispiel von Zugriffen aus dem einen System ins andere System. Da gibt's mehrere Probleme. Das ist der Single Sign On ist Oorth, dann ist da der authentifizierte Zugriff, dass ich als Vailland aus Open Proteictors Next dot machen kann. Das ist Oorth, zum Teil aber auch Token Exchange.\n\nDas kann neue IDPs. Und das ja, wenn Du jetzt 'n Projekt zum Beispiel aufsetzen, Open Projekt musst Du ja mit Menschen planen, die vielleicht sich noch nie eingeloggt haben. Also musst Du auch die Nutzer schon provisioniert haben in allen Systemen. Also wenn Du jetzt 'n Projekt hast, 'n Open Project und Du möchtest dort einen Projektordner in Nextcloud haben, damit das schön in deinen Desktop integriert ist. Und da möchtest Du schon den Zugriff geregelt haben, bevor sich der Nutzer zum ersten Mal eine Nextout angemeldet hat.\n\nJa, das ist so Probleme, die die Du musst mehrere Standards implementieren, die eigentlich, wenn es einfach nur so was zu teuer wären als einzelnes Unternehmen, das zu implementieren, aber dadurch, dass Du das halt alle gleichzeitig machen und sich drauf einigen, lohnt sich das, ja? Und solche Sachen solche Sachen, die finde ich halt richtig spannend. Was was eigentlich passiert, wenn Du dieses, da gibt's ja dieses Chorsprinzip, ne, das ist irgendwie, Sachen sind billiger zu implementieren, wenn Du's in eigener Organisation machst als über über über Organisationsgrenzen hinweg. Wenn man das schafft, durch gute Kommunikation und Teambuilding zu zu überbrücken, ja, also das das zu umgehen, da hab ich große Leidenschaft für. Ich will, dass wir zusammen eine Alternative bauen, die wirklich mehr rockt und wuppt als das, was Big Tech dorthin bekommt.\n\nUnd da hab ich echt Passion für.\n\nSpeaker 0: Da hab ich, da hätt ich vielleicht 2 Fragen noch zu. Von daher wars vielleicht doch nicht meine letzte Frage eben.\n\nSpeaker 1: Jetzt hast\n\nSpeaker 0: Du ja so aufgezählt, ne, aus aus wie viel anderen kleineren Projekten Open Desk so subsumiert ist im Prinzip und dass die Summe aller Teile dann natürlich größer ist als jedes einzelne irgendwie zusammen. Mhm. Inwiefern siehst Du da eine Gefahr, dass die die potenziellen Anwender, Nutzer sich das torpedieren, weil sie halt nicht das ganze System nehmen, ne. Also wenn da jetzt eine Komponente drin ist, so Identity und Access Management zu machen, dann hast Du eben selber gesagt, so oh Ort Twitter gemacht, oh Ort braucht ja irgendwie einen zentralen Identity Manager, was für die für die allermeisten da draußen dann wahrscheinlich so der der Google Account oder der GitHub Account oder keine Ahnung, was ist und damit melden sich dann irgendwo an. Mhm.\n\nUnd wenn ich das jetzt halt nicht auch noch bereitstelle in Open Desk oder das, was Open Desk dazu mitbringt, nicht nutze, ja, und dann trotzdem allen meinen Mitarbeitern sage, okay, ihr braucht aber 'n Google Account, 'n Office Account und keine Ahnung was, unser Open Desk zu benutzen. Wie sehr torpediert sich das dann oder ne, also Identity ist 1, aber genauso, ich könnte ja sagen, okay, wir nutzen nicht Nextcloud, sondern wir nutzen halt irgendwie dafür Dropbox oder Google Drive und alles andere hat Open Desk. Also inwieweit kann diese Mission nur gelingen, wenn wirklich alles verwendet wird?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ah ja, ist auch gute Frage. Und so was denkt mir natürlich auch mal gleich mit. Also jemand, der Open Project verwendet, zum Beispiel aus Datensouveränität, überhaupt, Mendelog in und so weiter zu zu bekämpfen, heißt es noch lange nicht, dass der Mensch nicht auch trotzdem noch irgendwie Sharepoint im Einsatz hat, ja. Und das, glaub ich, genau das das Thema, ne. Dann ist halt die Antwort, ja, ist doch besser, diese offenen Standards zu verwenden, weil sich entspricht ja auch OADC oder so was uns geben für Nutzer Provisionierung.\n\nIst doch besser, auf diese offenen Standards zu setzen. Ist auch, ich find's nicht gut, wenn man Komponenten, konkrete Komponenten ja alternativlos übernehmen muss, ne. Das heißt, wir haben zwar gute Erfahrungen mitm Keykloke als IDP, ja, aber es sollte halt nicht heißen, dass wir nur mit einem Keykloke zusammenarbeiten, sondern Keykloke hat halt zum Beispiel die Fähigkeit, bestimmte Standards implementiert zu haben, ja. Und da sind dadurch ermöglicht sich ermöglichen sich dann Szenarien wie zum Beispiel 'n Token Exchange, womit man halt im Namen 1 Nutzers remote ja, ja, sich sich an einem anderen Dienst authentifizieren kann und autorisieren kann. Das hat halt einen und andere haben das halt noch nicht und deswegen würde dann halt gewählt werden.\n\nAber Du hast völlig recht. Also wir wir wenn wir zum Beispiel die Next Lord Integration von Open Project sehen, ne, da willst Du Arbeitspakete bei uns, also Vorgänge und Du willst die, ja, was machst Du eigentlich? Was sind eigentlich da Vorgänge? Normalerweise hast Du irgendwie eine Datei oder so was, an der Du arbeitest, da sind die Inputs und Du hast dann irgendwelche Dateien als Outputs, ja? Und der Vorgang ist sozusagen das Ding, das dazwischen, wo's getrackt wird.\n\nUnd dass Du das an deine NEXLA verknüpfen möchtest, ja klar. Hast Du immer eine IDP? Nö. Ja, vielleicht hast Du irgendwo den Nexler drauf auf Hetzner laufen oder auf Jonas und Du hast dein Open Project bei uns in der Cloud oder so was. Du hast vielleicht nicht einen IDP und trotzdem sollte man's irgendwie hinbekommen.\n\nUnd das ist das, was ich bei uns immer allen Leuten versuche, Bewusstsein dafür zu haben, dass wir halt nicht in einem kleinen abgespeckten Ökosystem Open Desk handeln, sondern wir arbeiten in einem Open Source Ökosystem. Und Menschen, die halt Nextcloud verwenden, sind da, ne. Das ist sone Wertesache und wir müssen in diesem Ökosystem denken und uns auch austauschen und einigen. Deswegen gehen wir zur ForStAM und machen dort Vorträge dazu, sprechen mit den Leuten, dass sie sich auch committen auf diese Standards, sodass wir besser miteinander integrieren können. Ja, unabhängig von den einzelnen Komponenten.\n\nAlso es geht.\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt hab ich Open Desk so verstanden, dass es ja maßgeblich auch für für öffentliche Träger relevant ist, ne?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, genau. Und Aber es wird auch schon gefolgt und übernommen für privat und so weiter. Also das, was Sie da bauen, ist Open Source und ja, Leute versuchen das Aber\n\nSpeaker 0: wenn ich wenn ich an an Open Source und die öffentliche Hand denke und ich versuch eigentlich kein Pessimist zu sein, aber ich muss immer an dieses Limox Projekt denken.\n\nSpeaker 1: Aha.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wo ja die Stadt München vor, ich weiß nicht, vielen, vielen Jahren, ich glaub, ist mittlerweile schon 10 Jahre her oder so, ne, irgendwann mal beschlossen hat so, ja, wir verabschieden uns von Microsoft und Office und wir setzen jetzt auf Linux und ich glaub irgendwie, Open Office oder LibreOffice oder was es halt irgendwie damals war. Und das wurde jahrelang versucht und dann wurde das wieder zurückgerollt und dann wurde wieder auf Microsoft und Windows gesetzt, weil die Leute mit diesen Austauschformaten nicht klargekommen sind mit anderen Verwaltungseinrichtungen und so was alles. Und dann wurde vor 'n paar Jahren, glaube ich, wieder gesagt, dass ah, dieses Microsoft ist irgendwie alles schwierig und wir gehen jetzt doch wieder zurück zu zu Linux und zu LibreOffice. Die die dieses dieses Hin und Her, ja, das scheint ja irgendwie systematisch also symptomatisch zu sein für den für den Umgang mit Open Source aus öffentlicher Hand, so. Und was was glaubst Du, kann Open Desk da noch noch richtig oder anders machen, damit sie nicht in ähnliche Probleme reinlaufen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ich glaub, der der Unterschied ist, dass damals die Welt auch noch nicht so ganz so reif war. Wir hatten auch nicht den Trump erlebt. Wir hatten noch nicht so viele Krisen erlebt. Also wir haben Trade Wars. Wir haben ne, so Trumpsche Aktionen.\n\nDann haben wir die Pandemie erlebt, dass auf jeden Fall viel mehr remote gearbeitet wird und es 'n Bedürfnis gibt nach Werkzeugen, die einfach remote funktionieren und die man auch entwickeln kann. Das ist sozusagen der der Open Source Bereich. Dann haben wir den den den Überfall der Ukraine miterlebt. Und da war nicht klar und zwar nicht klar, wie weit die russische Armee fortschreiten wird, wo wir sie stoppen. Das war gar nicht am Anfang gar nicht klar.\n\nUnd dann haben wir irgendwie die zentralisierte Softwarelandschaft mit Rechenzentren von Amazon und so weiter. Das das ist, also der, ne, der der Mindset ist ja 'n ganz anderer heute. Heute hörst Du Souveränität, Soverenty überall, das ist das Passwort des Jahres, glaub ich, ja. Gestern war der Gipfel, der französische Gipfel zum Eurostag, das ist das Wort, was am meisten da wahrscheinlich geflogen ist, ne. Da hat der Bundeskanzler hat von Open Desk geredet und den Notwendigkeit, diese Open Source Software einzusetzen vom Bund.\n\nDas hat der Bundeskanzler gesagt, von der CDU, ja. Das ist, das ist eine andere Zeit, ja. Das das das ist eine das ist Zeitenwende. Ja. Ja.\n\nAuch wenn das Wort bisschen komisch ist von von von, aber ihr wisst was, weißt was ich meine, ne? Das ist das trifft jetzt aufn ganz anderen eine ganz andere Bereitschaft, Risiken einzugehen. Dass Du natürlich diese Probleme nach wie vor hast, ja, ey, guck mal hier, der ist jetzt irgendwie, die Mails werden nicht durchgestellt, das muss an dem Open Source liegen, ja. Was 'n Quatsch, ja? Das halt, wenn da hast Du halt irgendwie, Du musst Software pflegen und das dafür brauchst Du gute Leute und Software pflegen ist komplex, egal wie Du das machst, ja.\n\nDas musst Du halt, das das ist nicht kein leichtes Ding, Software zu betreiben. Und wenn Du keine Ahnung davon hast, wirst Du halt auf die Nase fallen. Ich weiß jetzt nicht, das will jetzt nicht sagen, dass München das davon keine Ahnung hat. Nee, 'n ganz in jeden Fall. Ich bin sehr dankbar für all ihre Pioniersarbeit, die dort erfolgt ist.\n\nAber ne, wir in Deutschland und Europa, wir müssen uns dafür sorgen, dass wir halt gute Rechenzentren bekommen, die halt 'n von Gubanetistac unterstützen. Haben wir nicht so viele, ja? Da müssen wir hinkommen. Wir müssen dafür sorgen, dass dass man der eine Wahl frei hat, hat seinen hellen Chart mal hier und mal dort zu deployen. Ja, das ist, da arbeiten wir alle dran und die da muss auch die öffentliche Verwaltung muss da für Fähigkeiten entwickeln und das Coole ist, das passiert, ja?\n\nWir haben mit Open Code d e haben wir ein ein ein GitLab, wo aller Code veröffentlicht wird, denen dann das die die die ja die im Public Sector von von Deutschland verwendet wird. Also unser Code wird da auch noch mal einmal geforgt oder gemörrt, damit es auf jeden Fall kommen wird, ist 'n unglaublich kräftiges Motto. Wenn die Stadt Köln unseren Code einsetzt, ja, auf ihren Servern und das die Stadt Köln zu zu managen, dann ist es wichtig, dass der Code halt überall zur Verfügung steht. Und wenn Du jetzt mal wirklich rumschaust, dann ist es halt nicht mehr nur die München, sondern das macht Stuttgart, das macht Chemnitz, das macht Berlin. Dann macht das ja Kiel, das macht Universitäten, Kliniken, all all diese selber, das jetzt krieg ich an, ja, das machen, das ist ja kein kleines Ding mehr, ne.\n\nDas ist das das ist im Einsatz, das ist im. Das ist, das da gibt's Audits, da geht da wird versuchen, Leute an die Daten ranzukommen und unseren Code zu knacken, ja. Das das ist die Bounty Programme, alles Mögliche. Also wir sind da heute ganz anders aufgestellt als damals.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das ist, glaub ich, ein Aber am\n\nSpeaker 1: Ende ist es Management, ne. Am Ende ist es Management.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja und halt auch Wille, so, ne. Also das das ist, glaub ich, der Punkt, auch was Du da gesagt hast mit, weiß gar nicht, ob sich so viel von den technischen Umständen geändert hat, aber wie Du halt sagst so, ne, die die politischen Umstände und der die die abstrakte Gefahr, die halt lange nur so potenziell beschrieben war, wenn die halt immer realer wird, ne, dann sind halt die Leute auch bereit, andere Risiken einzugehen oder den ein oder anderen Migrationsschmerz einfach halt auch mal auszuhalten.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ganz genau. Genau.\n\nSpeaker 0: Cool. Dann bedanke ich mich Wieland bei dir für die viele, viele Zeit, die wir\n\nSpeaker 1: heute von dir in Anspruch nehmen konnten und das\n\nSpeaker 0: sehr interessante Gespräch.\n\nSpeaker 1: Auf jeden Fall. Dankeschön.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wir hören uns bestimmt irgendwann mal hier wieder in der Programmierbar. Ansonsten hören alle anderen da draußen uns in spätestens 1 oder 2 Wochen wieder und wir sagen bis bald und 1000 Dank.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich danke dir. Ich wollt euch noch eine Sache sagen. Ich hab die CTO Specials ja genossen, reinzuhören. Es ist Sehr, sehr inspirierend zu hören, wie andere Leute in der Küche kochen. Das ist sehr, sehr, sehr cool.\n\nMacht das bitte weiter, ja? Dankeschön.\n\nSpeaker 0: Auf jeden Fall. Also es es lebt ja davon, dass wir dass wir auch coole Gäste haben so, ja? Das hängt ja gar nicht so unmittelbar an uns. Also wenn Du oder ihr da draußen noch Vorschläge für andere coole Gäste für CTO Specials habt, immer gerne her damit. Ich muss tatsächlich sagen, die CTO Specials sind in der Organisation deutlich einfacher als die Deep Dives, ja?\n\nWenn Du son Deep Dive organisieren willst und dann sagen wir so, ich hätte hier, weiß ich nicht, wir haben jetzt neue Release von React, da suchen wir jemanden, mit dem wir drüber sprechen können. Das immer ein bisschen schwierig dann da irgendwie jemanden zu finden. Wohingegen bei den CTO Specials, wenn uns jemand vorgeschlagen wird oder wir selber irgendwie jemanden finden und den anschreiben und sagen, hey, hallo, wir sind die programmierbar, hast Du mal irgendwie Lust mit uns eine Stunde zu sprechen? Außer einmal hat mir da noch nie jemand eine Absage gegeben. So.\n\nBei manchen dauert's 'n bisschen länger und manchmal ist da noch eine Presseabteilung und eine Legal Abteilung und keine Ahnung, irgendwie alles mit dabei. Aber die die Leute sind da immer sehr, sehr viel zugänglicher, als man eigentlich denken könnte.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, eine super Sache.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und davon lebt es ja irgendwann. Von daher deswegen noch mal 1000 Dank, dass Du dir Zeit genommen hast. Alle anderen werden sicherlich auch davon profitieren und bis bald. Tschau tschau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Tschau, danke dir.",[41340,41353,41362,41368,41373,41386,41399,41412,41417,41422,41433,41441,41454,41467,41479,41492,41501,41506,41519,41532,41540,41545,41550,41554,41567,41580,41593,41606,41619,41632,41644,41657,41669,41682,41695,41706,41718,41731,41744,41757,41770,41779,41792,41799,41812,41825,41838,41841,41851,41862,41875,41888,41900,41911,41924,41928,41940,41953,41966,41978,41990,42003,42015,42021,42025,42038,42044,42054,42067,42072,42084,42096,42109,42122,42135,42147,42160,42170,42175,42187,42191,42200,42211,42223,42236,42248,42261,42266,42279,42291,42303,42315,42327,42339,42343,42349,42352,42365,42370,42377,42382,42386,42399,42412,42416,42426,42430,42434,42438,42441,42454,42467,42479,42490,42501,42513,42520,42525,42529,42541,42544,42557,42570,42583,42595,42608,42620,42633,42638,42642,42648,42657,42661,42668,42671,42683,42693,42696,42705,42717,42723,42728,42734,42741,42753,42765,42772,42776,42788,42801,42813,42826,42837,42848,42860,42864,42876,42888,42900,42913,42920,42933,42945,42949,42957,42969,42976,42985,42996,43004,43008,43016,43027,43033,43037,43047,43060,43072,43080,43086,43094,43099,43105,43108,43120,43131,43139,43146,43150,43156,43169,43179,43188,43200,43212,43218,43222,43226,43236,43247,43259,43271,43283,43295,43307,43319,43325,43333,43337,43346,43358,43371,43378,43388,43400,43413,43422,43426,43430,43442,43453,43465,43477,43490,43502,43515,43519,43526,43530,43541,43549,43561,43574,43586,43597,43609,43613,43617,43625,43629,43632,43645,43657,43669,43681,43692,43704,43717,43729,43742,43752,43756,43763,43769,43774,43779,43783,43787,43792,43798,43810,43815,43827,43838,43845,43849,43859],{"sentences":41341,"speaker":132,"num_words":41352,"start":129,"end":621},[41342,41344,41346,41348,41350],{"text":41343,"start":129,"end":181},"Hallo und herzlich willkommen zu einem neuen CTO Special hier in der Programmierbar.",{"text":41345,"start":186,"end":277},"Ich bin immer noch oder wieder mal oder wie auch immer der Jan bei euch heute hier am Start und ich hab einen sehr interessanten Gast bei mir.",{"text":41347,"start":282,"end":463},"Dazu muss man vielleicht einmal aus dem Nähkästchen plaudern und erzählen, meistens ist es ja so, dass wir die Gäste für unsere CTO Specials, die finden meistens Dennis und ich irgendwo auf Veranstaltungen in unserer eigenen Bubble oder sonst irgendwo und dann sprechen wir mit denen und fragen, wie läuft das denn hier so?",{"text":41349,"start":468,"end":560},"Unser heutiger Gast wurde uns von einem Teammitglied empfohlen und der hat uns das gepitcht und hat mir dazu ein LinkedIn Profil geschickt und meinte, mit dem sollten wir unbedingt mal reden.",{"text":41351,"start":560,"end":621},"Ich hab das LinkedIn Profil aufgemacht, hab son bisschen gegoogelt und ich war instant überzeugt, muss ich sagen.",145,{"sentences":41354,"speaker":132,"num_words":41361,"start":627,"end":894},[41355,41357,41359],{"text":41356,"start":627,"end":639},"Was hat mich irgendwie überzeugt?",{"text":41358,"start":639,"end":871},"Ich find Menschen immer interessant, wenn sie viele viele Sprachen mehr sprechen können als ich, wenn sie super früh schon gegründet haben, wenn sie länger oder immer noch mal außerhalb von Deutschland gewohnt haben und wenn sie viel mit Open Source zu tun haben und unser heutiger Gast vereint das alles in Personalunion und deshalb war das eine eine Instant Entscheidung auf unserer Seite, hier mal ein Gespräch zu suchen und damit herzlich willkommen Wieland Lindenhal.",{"text":41360,"start":871,"end":894},"Hallo, schön, dass Du da bist.",87,{"sentences":41363,"speaker":111,"num_words":41367,"start":898,"end":918},[41364,41365],{"text":902,"start":898,"end":899},{"text":41366,"start":905,"end":918},"Freut mich, hier zu sein.",6,{"sentences":41369,"speaker":132,"num_words":41372,"start":922,"end":1091},[41370],{"text":41371,"start":922,"end":1091},"Wieland, die allererste Frage, die ich mir gestellt hab, als ich dein LinkedIn Profil angeguckt hab, war nicht, welche Sprachen Du alles sprichst, sondern ich hab son bisschen geguckt, was Du schon so alles gemacht hast in deinem Leben und ich hab mich gefragt, warst Du irgendwo jemals so ganz klassisch angestellt, überhaupt, irgendwann mal?",55,{"sentences":41374,"speaker":111,"num_words":41385,"start":1091,"end":1207},[41375,41377,41379,41381,41383],{"text":41376,"start":1091,"end":1102},"Ja, witzig.",{"text":41378,"start":1106,"end":1127},"Ja, ich glaub für 'n paar Wochen.",{"text":41380,"start":1131,"end":1153},"Und zwar am Lehrstuhl von Professor Weske.",{"text":41382,"start":1153,"end":1171},"Der mochte mich aber nicht wirklich.",{"text":41384,"start":1175,"end":1207},"Und an diesem Lehrstuhl wurde der zeitgleich der Orax entwickelt.",32,{"sentences":41387,"speaker":111,"num_words":41398,"start":1210,"end":1451},[41388,41390,41392,41394,41396],{"text":41389,"start":1210,"end":1226},"Orax ist der Vorläufer von Signavio.",{"text":41391,"start":1230,"end":1306},"Und da war ein Doktorand mit, der auch sozusagen das Bachelorprojekt mit koordiniert hat, an dem ich mitgearbeitet habe, was ich auch geleitet hatte damals.",{"text":41393,"start":1310,"end":1331},"Und der brauchte mich immer zum Fragen stellen.",{"text":41395,"start":1331,"end":1380},"Der wollte immer, dass ich ihn ausquetsche und seine Konzepte hinterfrage und er sie erklären muss.",{"text":41397,"start":1383,"end":1451},"Und ich hab's dann son bisschen auf 'nem Blatt Papier und aufm Whiteboard dann aufgemalt für ihn, was er mir erklärt hat.",77,{"sentences":41400,"speaker":111,"num_words":41411,"start":1455,"end":1609},[41401,41403,41405,41407,41409],{"text":41402,"start":1455,"end":1471},"Und deshalb bin ich lange gehalten.",{"text":41404,"start":1471,"end":1501},"Also der Signalview ist ja ja groß geworden.",{"text":41406,"start":1505,"end":1520},"Sehr schön, freu ich mich drüber.",{"text":41408,"start":1524,"end":1556},"Aber ich ja, Angestellten sein, das war nicht so mein Ding.",{"text":41410,"start":1559,"end":1609},"Ich hab mal eine Zeit lang noch als Berater gearbeitet, also dann war ich selbstständiger als Berater.",48,{"sentences":41413,"speaker":111,"num_words":41416,"start":1609,"end":1627},[41414],{"text":41415,"start":1609,"end":1627},"Das war auch nicht so mein Ding.",7,{"sentences":41418,"speaker":132,"num_words":41421,"start":1629,"end":1689},[41419],{"text":41420,"start":1629,"end":1689},"Also waren die paar Wochen Festanstellungen so traumatisch für dich, dass Du gesagt hast, so, das das mach ich schon nicht mehr?",22,{"sentences":41423,"speaker":111,"num_words":41432,"start":1694,"end":1836},[41424,41426,41428,41430],{"text":41425,"start":1694,"end":1723},"Ach, keine Ahnung, es hat einfach nicht funktioniert irgendwie.",{"text":41427,"start":1723,"end":1776},"Es ist, weiß nicht, es das Nee, ich muss schon mein Ding dann machen, ne.",{"text":41429,"start":1780,"end":1798},"Und kenn auch mit anderen zusammen.",{"text":41431,"start":1798,"end":1836},"Also nicht mein Ding, sondern unser Ding eigentlich, ja, wenn das Du möchte.",43,{"sentences":41434,"speaker":132,"num_words":41440,"start":1836,"end":1927},[41435,41437,41438],{"text":41436,"start":1836,"end":1851},"Ah, das ist schön.",{"text":1858,"start":1855,"end":1856},{"text":41439,"start":1860,"end":1927},"Und dann hast Du direkt nach oder aus oder vor der Uni gegründet und dich selbstständig gemacht oder wie wie musst Du mir die Geschichte vorstellen?",31,{"sentences":41442,"speaker":111,"num_words":41453,"start":1930,"end":2036},[41443,41445,41447,41449,41451],{"text":41444,"start":1930,"end":1951},"Ja, das ging schon 'n bisschen früher los.",{"text":41446,"start":1951,"end":1981},"Also des die Selbstständigkeit fing in der Oberstufe an.",{"text":41448,"start":1985,"end":1997},"Das muss man vielleicht ausholen.",{"text":41450,"start":1997,"end":2020},"Ich hab eigentlich Competern nicht so gerne gemocht.",{"text":41452,"start":2024,"end":2036},"Das war nicht so mein Ding.",36,{"sentences":41455,"speaker":111,"num_words":41466,"start":2036,"end":2226},[41456,41458,41460,41462,41464],{"text":41457,"start":2036,"end":2062},"Ich fand's irgendwie spannender, mit Hardware zu arbeiten.",{"text":41459,"start":2062,"end":2111},"Also wirklich Hardware schmieden, schweißen, wechseln, Hütten bauen, Öfen bauen und so was.",{"text":41461,"start":2111,"end":2125},"Das fand ich immer cool.",{"text":41463,"start":2129,"end":2181},"Hat aber natürlich den Nachteil, dass Du halt erst mal jemand brauchst, der dir's zeigt.",{"text":41465,"start":2181,"end":2226},"Das Wissen ist nicht da, das Material ist nicht da, das Werkzeug ist nicht da und so.",58,{"sentences":41468,"speaker":111,"num_words":1049,"start":2229,"end":2524},[41469,41471,41473,41475,41477],{"text":41470,"start":2229,"end":2291},"Aufm Dorf war's halt sau langweilig und da war immer so irgendwie ja, der Kampf gegen die Langeweile, das machen.",{"text":41472,"start":2295,"end":2334},"Und ich hatte dann 'n paar gute Freunde, mit denen das halt sehr gut ging.",{"text":41474,"start":2337,"end":2374},"Und ich hatte auch immer Computer zu Hause, aber das war halt nicht interessant.",{"text":41476,"start":2377,"end":2497},"Also ich war relativ klein so, weiß nicht, gefühlt irgendwie 6 Jahre oder 7 Jahre und dann gab's dann halt schon irgendwie Atari und 2 Sechsundachtziger Flugsimulator, war eigentlich 'n wichtiges Thema, Microsoft Flugsimulator und ich fand's halt unglaublich langweilig.",{"text":41478,"start":2497,"end":2524},"Ich war auch alles auf Englisch, hab nichts kapiert.",{"sentences":41480,"speaker":111,"num_words":41491,"start":2527,"end":2699},[41481,41483,41485,41487,41489],{"text":41482,"start":2527,"end":2567},"Den den den Norton Commander fand ich irgendwie völlig unlogisch und warum, ja.",{"text":41484,"start":2571,"end":2595},"'N Drucker haben sowieso nie funktioniert und so was.",{"text":41486,"start":2595,"end":2624},"Also es hat mich echt nicht angemacht, das Zeug, ja.",{"text":41488,"start":2624,"end":2646},"Das ist das war nichts, was mich gerufen hat.",{"text":41490,"start":2648,"end":2699},"Ja genau und dann war's aber so, dass dass dass ich in der, wie war das eigentlich so?",59,{"sentences":41493,"speaker":111,"num_words":41500,"start":2699,"end":2822},[41494,41496,41498],{"text":41495,"start":2699,"end":2780},"Am Ende der Mittelstufe, da hatt ich son son Trip son son Job in der der Schulleistung und da musste ich irgendwie mal raus ins Ausland.",{"text":41497,"start":2784,"end":2796},"Ich musste mal woanders hin.",{"text":41499,"start":2796,"end":2822},"Ich war einmal rebellieren, bin nach England gegangen.",39,{"sentences":41502,"speaker":132,"num_words":41505,"start":2822,"end":2845},[41503],{"text":41504,"start":2822,"end":2845},"Hast hast Du das entschieden oder deine Eltern?",8,{"sentences":41507,"speaker":111,"num_words":41518,"start":2848,"end":3064},[41508,41510,41512,41514,41516],{"text":41509,"start":2848,"end":2865},"Das hab ich entschieden ziemlich genau.",{"text":41511,"start":2865,"end":2969},"Ich wollte eigentlich nach Amerika, hab dann son AllBright Stipendium probiert, bin dann durch mehrere Stufen irgendwie durchgekommen und am Ende musste dann halt die Bundestagsabgeordnete meines Wahlkreises, musste dann entscheiden, wer reinkommt.",{"text":41513,"start":2973,"end":2984},"Und da, weiß ich nicht.",{"text":41515,"start":2984,"end":3043},"Ich glaub, ich war damals 'n bisschen zu, hatte eine zu liberale Weltanschauung und das war 'n SPD Bundestagabgeordnete.",{"text":41517,"start":3047,"end":3064},"Hat nicht so gepasst, weiß ich nicht.",70,{"sentences":41520,"speaker":111,"num_words":41531,"start":3064,"end":3230},[41521,41523,41525,41527,41529],{"text":41522,"start":3064,"end":3097},"So, aber das meine Weltanschauung wird sich dann weiterentwickeln, ne.",{"text":41524,"start":3097,"end":3108},"Nur aber ja.",{"text":41526,"start":3111,"end":3159},"Genau und da bin ich halt der Engländer Gag zu meiner Tante, die wohnt in England.",{"text":41528,"start":3163,"end":3186},"Und das war dann so, dass Internet war teuer.",{"text":41530,"start":3190,"end":3230},"Ich hatte eine Freundin in Deutschland, Briefeschreiben dauerte irgendwie sehr lange, telefonieren war teuer.",52,{"sentences":41533,"speaker":111,"num_words":41453,"start":3233,"end":3333},[41534,41536,41538],{"text":41535,"start":3233,"end":3302},"Und mein ältester Bruder und mein Vater, die haben dann irgendwie die schlaue Entscheidung getroffen und zusammengelegt, haben einen Paket geschickt mit 'nem iMac drin.",{"text":41537,"start":3305,"end":3318},"Ich glaub, das war einen orangener.",{"text":41539,"start":3322,"end":3333},"Und Und da reden wir",{"sentences":41541,"speaker":132,"num_words":41544,"start":3333,"end":3376},[41542],{"text":41543,"start":3333,"end":3376},"also nur für die kleinen Kinder zu Hause, da reden wir noch von diesem Röhren iMac, ne,",17,{"sentences":41546,"speaker":111,"num_words":41549,"start":3376,"end":3385},[41547],{"text":41548,"start":3376,"end":3385},"so Röhrenkörper.",2,{"sentences":41551,"speaker":132,"num_words":41505,"start":3390,"end":3418},[41552],{"text":41553,"start":3390,"end":3418},"Polycarbonat Verpackung und so, die die Schönen noch.",{"sentences":41555,"speaker":111,"num_words":41566,"start":3421,"end":3667},[41556,41558,41560,41562,41564],{"text":41557,"start":3421,"end":3461},"Aber so ein so ein so ein absoluter Dow, wie ich damals war, ja?",{"text":41559,"start":3461,"end":3492},"Ich muss nur mal erklären, was fürn Dow ich da war.",{"text":41561,"start":3492,"end":3538},"Also ich bin, ich ich wollt halt Internet haben, weil die gesagt haben, musst Internet anschließen.",{"text":41563,"start":3542,"end":3600},"Und dann bin ich halt ins Kiosk gegangen und da gab's immer diese Virgin Internet und so weiter, das ist in England, ne.",{"text":41565,"start":3603,"end":3667},"Internetmagazine, wo Du halt sone CD drauf hattest und diese CD konntest Du nutzen, das Internet zu installieren, ja, für PCs.",85,{"sentences":41568,"speaker":111,"num_words":41579,"start":3670,"end":3919},[41569,41571,41573,41575,41577],{"text":41570,"start":3670,"end":3702},"Ich kannte den Unterschied zu den PCs und Macs aber nicht, ja.",{"text":41572,"start":3702,"end":3771},"Das er, als hab ich andere und alle möglichen Magazine gekauft, die CD auszuprobieren, es zu installieren und es hat halt nicht geklappt.",{"text":41574,"start":3774,"end":3799},"Das ist auf dem Niveau recht da unterwegs.",{"text":41576,"start":3803,"end":3854},"Und das Tolle am Mac war aber auch, dass er halt irgendwie, Jana, der hatte schon USB gehabt.",{"text":41578,"start":3854,"end":3919},"Das heißt, irgend das Zusammenstecken war viel leichter als das, was ich früher ausm Kinderzimmer kannte und was mich so angenervt hatte.",83,{"sentences":41581,"speaker":111,"num_words":41592,"start":3922,"end":4187},[41582,41584,41586,41588,41590],{"text":41583,"start":3922,"end":3936},"Das heißt, das ging dann irgendwie cool.",{"text":41585,"start":3936,"end":4057},"Das was sie, meinen Bruder und meinen Vater dann halt auch noch sehr cool gemacht haben, ist, die hatten dann noch eine CD reingelegt, eine gebrannte, ein Raubgepick quasi von Flash 3 und von und 'nem Buch mit den HTML Basics, ja.",{"text":41587,"start":4060,"end":4114},"Und so kam es dann, dass ich dann 2 Monate später dann meine erste Webseite hatte mit 'ner Flashanimation drauf.",{"text":41589,"start":4114,"end":4170},"Ich glaub, das war irgendwie eine Weihnachtskarte mit 'nem Weihnachtsmann, der vor irgend 'nem Mülltonne wegläuft, irgendwie so was.",{"text":41591,"start":4170,"end":4187},"Also Weihnachtskarten brauchte ich in England.",94,{"sentences":41594,"speaker":111,"num_words":41605,"start":4187,"end":4336},[41595,41597,41599,41601,41603],{"text":41596,"start":4187,"end":4236},"England ist das 'n großes Ding, da braucht man und ich wusste das nicht, als hab ich eine programmiert.",{"text":41598,"start":4240,"end":4266},"Und dann war 'n halbes Jahr England war dann durch.",{"text":41600,"start":4266,"end":4280},"England war sehr, sehr spannend.",{"text":41602,"start":4280,"end":4298},"Die waren 'n bisschen weiter mit Internet.",{"text":41604,"start":4298,"end":4336},"Die hatten dann Computerräume, wo so Pentium 3 Rechner standen.",51,{"sentences":41607,"speaker":111,"num_words":41618,"start":4340,"end":4610},[41608,41610,41612,41614,41616],{"text":41609,"start":4340,"end":4367},"Altavista war bis am Anfang so drüber die Suchmaschine.",{"text":41611,"start":4371,"end":4418},"Und als das das war son 99 2000 Wechsel, da wurde auf einmal Google son Ding.",{"text":41613,"start":4420,"end":4434},"Und wow, Google war cool.",{"text":41615,"start":4436,"end":4539},"Ja, und dann ging's auch son bisschen weiter, dann kam ich aus England zurück und mein Bruder, ältester Bruder war schon son bisschen weiter im Internet, hatte zum Beispiel diesen Nachrichtenaggigator Netzzeitung d e gestartet.",{"text":41617,"start":4539,"end":4610},"Also Internet kostete Geld und man hat nach dem Youtube abgerechnet und die Domain Netzzeitung d e war sozusagen im Familienbesitz, also eine Zweizeit.",89,{"sentences":41620,"speaker":111,"num_words":41631,"start":4614,"end":4953},[41621,41623,41625,41627,41629],{"text":41622,"start":4614,"end":4658},"Und ja, dann gleichzeitig ist auch die Netzzeitung, die erste online only Zeitung gestartet.",{"text":41624,"start":4662,"end":4720},"Und die Leute haben's nicht gehört, Unterschied Netz Zeitung, Netzzeitung und sind dann dort auf der Domain gelandet.",{"text":41626,"start":4724,"end":4802},"Und mein Bruder und mein Vater, die waren halt so schlau, dass sie die Gäste bitte kommen, aber auch was hin auf die Seite auf die Domain parken.",{"text":41628,"start":4802,"end":4867},"Und das war dann eigentlich eine Agglikation der Top 3 Schlagzeilen, also war vor RSS, vor Google News und so weiter.",{"text":41630,"start":4870,"end":4953},"Top 3 Schlagzeilen einfach mit regulären Ausdrücken gepaßt von den Frontseiten der Zeitungen und dann nebeneinandergestellt, sodass Du halt nicht sehen konntest, was die Presse schreibt.",107,{"sentences":41633,"speaker":111,"num_words":41643,"start":4956,"end":5264},[41634,41636,41637,41639,41641],{"text":41635,"start":4956,"end":5032},"Da waren das, das mochten Leute sehr gerne, die irgendwie wollten, 'n schnellen Überblick bekommen wollten und und nicht so viel wie viel's im Internet bezahlen wollten.",{"text":5039,"start":5036,"end":5037},{"text":41638,"start":5037,"end":5111},"So, solche Sachen sind das so in der Zeit passiert und das heißt, mein Bruder konnte da schon son bisschen Pearl und so, hat das mit Pearl gebaut.",{"text":41640,"start":5115,"end":5166},"Und gleichzeitig war es auch so irgendwie das Anfang vom Ende der Dotcom Blase, aber alle haben noch dran geglaubt.",{"text":41642,"start":5169,"end":5264},"Und da kam die Idee auf auch wieder von meinem Bruder und Vater irgendwie so in dem Umfeld, Man könnte doch son Yahoo machen für Schüler, son son Katalog, das Internet für ja Schulmaterial.",110,{"sentences":41645,"speaker":111,"num_words":41656,"start":5268,"end":5531},[41646,41648,41650,41652,41654],{"text":41647,"start":5268,"end":5283},"Wie findet man das eigentlich als Schüler?",{"text":41649,"start":5286,"end":5346},"Und ne, BigSpeater son Ding, man hatte zuerst die die Domain irgendwie im Kicker, also im Auge, Schule im Netz d e.",{"text":41651,"start":5350,"end":5505},"Und die gehörte dann aber jemand anderem, der aber auch in der Topf Dot Com Blase son bisschen, ja, wie soll ich sagen, bullisch unterwegs war, ne, ne und angerufen und einmal getroffen und quasi 20000 Mark irgendwie eingesammelt so und dann damit halt das Start up Schule im Netz DESINGMBH gegründet, ja.",{"text":41653,"start":5508,"end":5521},"Einfachstes Fundraising der Geschichte.",{"text":41655,"start":5525,"end":5531},"Ja, fast.",88,{"sentences":41658,"speaker":111,"num_words":41656,"start":5531,"end":5794},[41659,41661,41663,41665,41667],{"text":41660,"start":5531,"end":5555},"Ich hab son paar Fundraising Geschichten, ja.",{"text":41662,"start":5555,"end":5565},"Das ist ganz witzig.",{"text":41664,"start":5567,"end":5598},"Genau und dann haben wir uns halt irgendwie unglaublich reich gefühlt mit 20000 Mark.",{"text":41666,"start":5601,"end":5735},"Ich weiß noch, dass mein Bruder dann mich im Bahnhof abgeholt hat mit sonem Opel Kadett Kombi und ich saß noch hinten drin, weil vorne war noch 'n anderer Gesellschafter, der dann mit, ja und dann und dann sagt er, okay, Viad, wir machen jetzt Folgendes.",{"text":41668,"start":5739,"end":5794},"Hier meine Tasche und hier mal das, son so MacBook schwarz, son Waffeleisen hieß das bei uns.",{"sentences":41670,"speaker":111,"num_words":41681,"start":5797,"end":6045},[41671,41673,41675,41677,41679],{"text":41672,"start":5797,"end":5923},"So, und jetzt tippt er mal rein und dann hat er mir irgendwie sone Terminal irgendwie während des Fahren hat er mir so durch durchgediktiert, was ich damit machen soll, halt mal Programmieren zu lernen und ich hab mich grad als Bilder eigentlich so von mir.",{"text":41674,"start":5926,"end":5973},"Also es macht vielleicht nicht wirklich Sinn gegeben, was ich da eingegeben habe und warum das unglaublich cool ist.",{"text":41676,"start":5976,"end":6006},"Lange Rede, kurzer Sinn, also er, wir haben das Ding hochgezogen.",{"text":41678,"start":6009,"end":6022},"Wir haben ein Portal gebaut.",{"text":41680,"start":6022,"end":6045},"Wir haben die die wir haben das Netz durchforstet.",90,{"sentences":41683,"speaker":111,"num_words":41694,"start":6048,"end":6259},[41684,41686,41688,41690,41692],{"text":41685,"start":6048,"end":6085},"Wir haben Schüler, meine Mitschüler aus der Klasse haben wir eingestellt, dann programmiert.",{"text":41687,"start":6088,"end":6145},"Wir haben Lehrer dazugewonnen, dass sie die Inhalte, die wir einstellen, unser Katalog überprüfen auf Qualität und so weiter.",{"text":41689,"start":6147,"end":6153},"War ziemlich cool.",{"text":41691,"start":6155,"end":6198},"Natürlich hat die Kohle nicht gereicht und dann haben wir halt angefangen als Agentur zu arbeiten.",{"text":41693,"start":6198,"end":6259},"Und glücklicherweise hatten wir da auch Kontakte, haben wir 'n Onlinewörterbücher gebaut für Pons, ne, die Grünen, nicht die gelben.",71,{"sentences":41696,"speaker":111,"num_words":41518,"start":6259,"end":6464},[41697,41698,41700,41702,41704],{"text":6264,"start":6259,"end":6263},{"text":41699,"start":6266,"end":6280},"Die wir haben uns dann durchfinanziert.",{"text":41701,"start":6283,"end":6359},"Wir haben für RTL, GZSZ d e hab ich Animationen mit Flash gebaut, Schummelcomics und alles Mögliche für 'n Herdverlag haben wir Sachen gemacht.",{"text":41703,"start":6363,"end":6434},"Und das war immer so, dass ich so, dass dass dass Ich war immer dafür verantwortlich, dass das irgendwie so modern und interaktiv und animiert ist so mit Flash.",{"text":41705,"start":6437,"end":6464},"Hab dann irgendwie mit Action Script dann mich dann angefreundet.",{"sentences":41707,"speaker":111,"num_words":41579,"start":6468,"end":6695},[41708,41710,41712,41714,41716],{"text":41709,"start":6468,"end":6503},"Und mein Bruder hat hintenrum so das das ganze Datenbanken und so weiter gemacht.",{"text":41711,"start":6503,"end":6534},"Also noch bevor's, ja, wirklich Frameworks oder Open Source gab.",{"text":41713,"start":6534,"end":6581},"Da mussten wir so komische proprietäre Frameworks erinnern, die hießen Prime Base und so.",{"text":41715,"start":6584,"end":6596},"Das das hat er immer gemacht.",{"text":41717,"start":6596,"end":6695},"Und was halt dran interessant ist, ist, dass ich dann halt, dass er und ich, die dann immer so im Gespann gearbeitet haben, schon Probleme hatten, darüber zu reden, was wir eigentlich bauen wollen und wie wir's bauen wollen.",{"sentences":41719,"speaker":111,"num_words":41730,"start":6698,"end":6902},[41720,41722,41724,41726,41728],{"text":41721,"start":6698,"end":6744},"Also die Sprache darüber eigentlich ne ne, eine Softwarearchitektur zu beschreiben, die hatten wir einfach nicht.",{"text":41723,"start":6746,"end":6757},"Und das hat uns gehindert.",{"text":41725,"start":6760,"end":6798},"Und ja, irgendwann war die Abitur bei mir halt durch und ich wollte gerne studieren.",{"text":41727,"start":6801,"end":6843},"Und auf 'nem Studiumsmesse hat mich mein anderer Bruder, mit dem wir's auch zusammen gemacht haben.",{"text":41729,"start":6843,"end":6902},"Der ist übrigens jetzt hier der CEO von Open Project, wo wir wo ich jetzt halt seit Jahren unterwegs bin.",72,{"sentences":41732,"speaker":111,"num_words":41743,"start":6905,"end":7220},[41733,41735,41737,41739,41741],{"text":41734,"start":6905,"end":6939},"Der hat mich drauf gestoßen auf einen Stand vom Hasel Plattner Institut.",{"text":41736,"start":6942,"end":7023},"Und das Hasel Plattner Institut, das war damals so, die hatten 2 Jahrgänge schon durch und eigentlich wär Informatik, wenn Du zur Informatik gehen wolltest, bist nach Karlsruhe gegangen.",{"text":41738,"start":7025,"end":7131},"Und da war dieser Stand vom Hasel Plattner Institut und die hatten dann auf auf ihren Standmaterial, hatten die sozusagen die das Versprechen, dass sie Softwareingenieurs, nee, dass sie zur in die Informatik sozusagen Ingenieurskultur reinbringen wollen.",{"text":41740,"start":7131,"end":7155},"Also Pläne Pläne zeichnen, die für Menschen sind.",{"text":41742,"start":7158,"end":7220},"Nicht für Maschinen, die die nicht von Maschinen interpretiert werden sollen, so was wie URL oder so was, sondern wirklich für für Menschen.",109,{"sentences":41745,"speaker":111,"num_words":41756,"start":7223,"end":7342},[41746,41748,41750,41752,41754],{"text":41747,"start":7223,"end":7243},"Und da hat's bei mir Klick gemacht.",{"text":41749,"start":7243,"end":7258},"Also ich, das ist geil.",{"text":41751,"start":7261,"end":7276},"Da hat das muss man anschauen.",{"text":41753,"start":7279,"end":7311},"Und bin dann halt ans Asou Platt Institut zum Studieren gegangen.",{"text":41755,"start":7311,"end":7342},"Meine Noten waren nicht gut genug, weil ich zu viel programmiert hatte.",41,{"sentences":41758,"speaker":111,"num_words":41769,"start":7345,"end":7535},[41759,41761,41763,41765,41767],{"text":41760,"start":7345,"end":7391},"Aber rück- nach, rückverfahren bin ich dann reingekommen, war superhappy und das hat mir alles verändert.",{"text":41762,"start":7394,"end":7402},"Ja, also Softwareingenieurswesen.",{"text":41764,"start":7406,"end":7439},"Seitdem seh ich da ganz, schau ich da ganz, ganz anders drauf.",{"text":41766,"start":7439,"end":7484},"Und ich glaub, das war, das ist eigentlich der Grundstein eigentlich so für für das, was ich heute mache.",{"text":41768,"start":7484,"end":7535},"Also dass ich halt gesehen hab, die die Grenzen von Softwareentwicklung sind eigentlich die Grenzen der der der Teamarbeit.",69,{"sentences":41771,"speaker":111,"num_words":41778,"start":7538,"end":7641},[41772,41774,41776],{"text":41773,"start":7538,"end":7556},"Wie gut kann man über Software reden?",{"text":41775,"start":7560,"end":7620},"Wie kann man sich drauf einigen, was gebaut wird, wie's benannt wird, was es tut, wo die Schnittstellen sind, was die Schnittstellen sind.",{"text":41777,"start":7622,"end":7641},"Genau, das war eigentlich so der Grundstein für",38,{"sentences":41780,"speaker":132,"num_words":41791,"start":7644,"end":7853},[41781,41783,41785,41787,41789],{"text":41782,"start":7644,"end":7649},"Wie Ja.",{"text":41784,"start":7652,"end":7674},"Wie würdest Du dein Verhältnis zur Softwareentwicklung heute beschreiben?",{"text":41786,"start":7674,"end":7775},"Ja, wir haben jetzt viel gehört und da war 'n sehr großer Wandel drin von, na ja, eigentlich hättest Du viel lieber was mit deinen Händen gemacht und was Praktisches und dieses Computerzeug war alles langweilig.",{"text":41788,"start":7777,"end":7845},"Hin zu dem anderen Extrem zu, ja, deine deine Noten waren zu schlecht, weil Du zu viel programmiert hast und dich zu wenig anderes irgendwie gekümmert hast, ja?",{"text":41790,"start":7845,"end":7853},"Und dann Ja.",78,{"sentences":41793,"speaker":132,"num_words":41798,"start":7856,"end":7920},[41794,41796],{"text":41795,"start":7856,"end":7872},"Hast Du's doch irgendwie studiert, so.",{"text":41797,"start":7874,"end":7920},"Jetzt einige Jahre und Jahrzehnte später, wenn Du da drauf guckst so, wie würdest Du dieses Verhältnis beschreiben?",24,{"sentences":41800,"speaker":111,"num_words":41811,"start":7923,"end":8214},[41801,41803,41805,41807,41809],{"text":41802,"start":7923,"end":7958},"Oh, ich bin immer noch sehr gerne am am Basteln, auch mit den Händen.",{"text":41804,"start":7958,"end":8067},"Also ich find, was weiß ich, ich hab hier im Garten brauch ich eine Sauna, ja oder das das ich finde, das gehört eigentlich so dazu, dass das, ne, dass das Machen, das ist mir egal, was es ist.",{"text":41806,"start":8067,"end":8125},"Der Unterschied ist natürlich, das hab ich vielleicht nicht so genau erklärt, aber mit dem Internet kommt halt auf einmal der Zugang zu allem.",{"text":41808,"start":8125,"end":8154},"Du kommst zu Wissen, zu Material und zu Werkzeugen, ja?",{"text":41810,"start":8157,"end":8214},"Und aus 'ner aus der aus dem, wenn Du dich mit Material arbeitest, heute kann ich mir das leisten, aber früher hatte ich den.",111,{"sentences":41813,"speaker":111,"num_words":41824,"start":8214,"end":8370},[41814,41816,41818,41820,41822],{"text":41815,"start":8214,"end":8245},"Ich hatte kein Auto, ums Material zu kaufen, kein Geld.",{"text":41817,"start":8248,"end":8292},"Meine Eltern hatten vielleicht doch nicht so viel Zeit, immer mir alles zeigen und wussten auch nicht alles, ja.",{"text":41819,"start":8292,"end":8321},"Die Bücher zu bekommen, ja, wo sollst 'n die suchen?",{"text":41821,"start":8321,"end":8349},"In der Schulbibliothek, wie man 'n Lehmofen baut?",{"text":41823,"start":8354,"end":8370},"Vergiss es, ja, kriegst Du nicht.",53,{"sentences":41826,"speaker":111,"num_words":41837,"start":8372,"end":8587},[41827,41829,41831,41833,41835],{"text":41828,"start":8372,"end":8409},"Das heißt, das das heißt eigentlich mitm Zugang zum Internet, ne, weiter halt im Paradies.",{"text":41830,"start":8412,"end":8445},"Also das Internet, das war für mich das Ding, was das was wichtig ist, ja.",{"text":41832,"start":8448,"end":8494},"Das Internet ist für mich auch der, das das, da bin ich so richtig emotional dahinter, ne.",{"text":41834,"start":8494,"end":8527},"Da hab ich eine Meinung dazu, da denk ich ja digitale Freiheitsrechte.",{"text":41836,"start":8530,"end":8587},"Einfach nur aus der Erfahrung heraus, welche Freiheit es mir gegeben hat damals, nicht zu entfalten, auszutoben und Sachen aufzubauen.",79,{"sentences":41839,"speaker":111,"num_words":111,"start":8591,"end":8592},[41840],{"text":1858,"start":8591,"end":8592},{"sentences":41842,"speaker":132,"num_words":41631,"start":8592,"end":8870},[41843,41845,41847,41849],{"text":41844,"start":8592,"end":8709},"Das beantwortet die Frage aber nur halb, weil es geht ja auch so darum, also okay, da das war jetzt so, wie ist dein Verhältnis nach wie vor zu zu Bastelarbeit und wie ist dein Verhältnis zum Internet, aber wie guckst Du heute auf Softwareentwicklung wirklich, ja?",{"text":41846,"start":8709,"end":8769},"Wenn ich dir jetzt heute sagen würde, bau mir das oder für eure Firma braucht ihr x y und das muss gebaut werden.",{"text":41848,"start":8769,"end":8782},"Wie guckst Du da drauf?",{"text":41850,"start":8782,"end":8870},"Denkst Du dir, oh, das ist eine Aufgabe, die muss jetzt halt gemacht werden, also mach ich das oder hast Du da Spaß dran und kannst dich da drin verlieren, so wie?",{"sentences":41852,"speaker":111,"num_words":41778,"start":8874,"end":8981},[41853,41855,41857,41859,41860],{"text":41854,"start":8874,"end":8922},"Ja, aber also bei mir ist das sehr, sehr klar, dass als Erstes mal das Warum, ne.",{"text":41856,"start":8922,"end":8937},"Also warum ist das eine gute Idee?",{"text":41858,"start":8937,"end":8962},"Also ich baue jetzt nicht das Bauens wegen.",{"text":6264,"start":8965,"end":8966},{"text":41861,"start":8969,"end":8981},"So, sondern schon das Warum.",{"sentences":41863,"speaker":111,"num_words":41874,"start":8984,"end":9264},[41864,41866,41868,41870,41872],{"text":41865,"start":8984,"end":9042},"Und dann bei dem Warum frag ich mich nach dem Wie und bei dem Wie, dann guck ich mich und steck ganz viele Fragen.",{"text":41867,"start":9046,"end":9081},"Und dabei entdecke ich dann neue Software oder neue Frameworks oder neue, ne, Komponenten.",{"text":41869,"start":9085,"end":9119},"Und und dann bin ich dann auch dahinter, weil's mein Problem lösen kann.",{"text":41871,"start":9119,"end":9211},"Also ich hatte diesen diesen Nachrichtenaggregat, den ich schon angesprochen hatte, da hatte ich da das Problem, dass ich 'n Terabyte Daten in 'ner Post Quest Datenbank hatte und das ging nicht mehr weiter.",{"text":41873,"start":9213,"end":9264},"Und wenn das wenn Du dann auf einmal an so was kommst wie, dann ist das halt einen Mindblowing, ne.",105,{"sentences":41876,"speaker":111,"num_words":41887,"start":9264,"end":9587},[41877,41879,41881,41883,41885],{"text":41878,"start":9264,"end":9343},"Das ist halt, da gehen ganz andere Sachen auf einmal und dann finde ich Technologie halt auch wieder spannend, aber halt nur zu den zu 10 Prozent, wie ich's halt brauche.",{"text":41880,"start":9346,"end":9362},"Ich brauch nicht die 100 Prozent, ne.",{"text":41882,"start":9362,"end":9520},"Ich brauch die 10 Prozent, die mir mein Problem löst und und so gehe ich dann halt, ich persönlich halt bin ich halt in allen Stacks auf allen Layern, ne, also da bin ich dann 10 Prozent drin und knote das zusammen, halt das Produkt zu bauen, aber halt ja mit den richtigen Werkzeugen am richtigen Platz, ne.",{"text":41884,"start":9520,"end":9565},"Das das ist da sozusagen, also ich glaube, das ist das Was und dann halt diese Ingenieursgedanke.",{"text":41886,"start":9569,"end":9587},"Wie wie wie was ist die richtige Architektur?",121,{"sentences":41889,"speaker":111,"num_words":41743,"start":9591,"end":9905},[41890,41892,41894,41896,41898],{"text":41891,"start":9591,"end":9664},"Wie kann ich dafür sorgen, dass das richtige Werkzeug das Problem löst, was auch wartbar ist, was ich ja, was Strukturen hat, die die teamfähig sind, ja?",{"text":41893,"start":9664,"end":9726},"Also heute, das ist, mein klar, kommen wir vielleicht noch später zu, aber 2005, da kam das Rails Framework raus, ne.",{"text":41895,"start":9726,"end":9771},"Das das hat mich sehr geprägt, dass da alles drin ist, was man eigentlich braucht, Produkte zu bauen.",{"text":41897,"start":9774,"end":9885},"Ne, Rails ist 'n ist 'n ist 'n Framework, das da hat dieser Typ, der New David Heinemeiner Heinemile Hanson, die h 8, der hat dann in soner halben Stunde son Block hingehämmert, ja.",{"text":41899,"start":9887,"end":9905},"Und das ist halt genau das, was ich meine.",{"sentences":41901,"speaker":111,"num_words":41910,"start":9905,"end":10090},[41902,41904,41906,41908],{"text":41903,"start":9905,"end":10007},"Du kannst einen 'n Produkt raushauen und Du hast trotzdem alle architektonischen Grundsteine drin von Datenmigration, relationales Datenmapping, Controller, Du hast 'n Frontend, Du hast CSS zusammenkompiliert und so weiter.",{"text":41905,"start":10007,"end":10039},"Also ist auch alles drin, alles da und Du könntest damit einfach bauen.",{"text":41907,"start":10041,"end":10064},"Und das eine Person, ein Ding von vorne bis hinten.",{"text":41909,"start":10068,"end":10090},"Ja, das macht's halt unglaubliche Freiheits grade.",60,{"sentences":41912,"speaker":132,"num_words":41923,"start":10094,"end":10533},[41913,41915,41917,41919,41921],{"text":41914,"start":10094,"end":10208},"Jetzt hast Du ja schon gesagt, so Sachen, die dir wichtig sind, ne, dass Werkzeuge irgendwie für Teams funktionieren müssen und Software kann immer nur so gut sein wie die Menschen und die Prozesse irgendwie hinten dran und da hast Du irgendwie auch Interesse an Kollaboration.",{"text":41916,"start":10211,"end":10327},"Und wenn man auf sone Biografie guckt, auch auf die eigene, im Nachgang erscheint ja vieles immer so sinnvoll und sieht dann so aus, als wär das so, hätte sich so ganz organisch gegeben und war schon immer irgendwie in diesen Bahnen gelenkt, ja.",{"text":41918,"start":10330,"end":10473},"Aber wenn jetzt jemand vor 10 oder 15 Jahren vor dir gestanden hätte und gesagt hätte, na ja, guck mal, Du wirst mit diesem Open Project sone, es wird eine große Company sein und das wird alles Open Source und das wird irgendwie auch son Open Source Framework aufbauen und trotzdem verdient ihr damit Geld und überhaupt so.",{"text":41920,"start":10476,"end":10486},"Hättest Du dem das geglaubt?",{"text":41922,"start":10489,"end":10533},"Also war das war das schon immer so dein Ziel oder hat sich das durch durch Zufall ergeben?",171,{"sentences":41925,"speaker":132,"num_words":41416,"start":10533,"end":10551},[41926],{"text":41927,"start":10533,"end":10551},"Wie seid ihr wie seid ihr dahin",{"sentences":41929,"speaker":111,"num_words":41939,"start":10555,"end":10665},[41930,41931,41933,41935,41937],{"text":10559,"start":10555,"end":10556},{"text":41932,"start":10556,"end":10565},"Also gute Frage.",{"text":41934,"start":10565,"end":10615},"Also hätte das jemand jemand jemand damals gesagt, ob das einen schöner wäre, dann hätt ich gesagt, ja, ja.",{"text":41936,"start":10617,"end":10644},"Hätte ich jetzt aber als mein Ziel definiert, vermutlich nicht.",{"text":41938,"start":10644,"end":10665},"Mein Ziel war dann damals noch 'n ganz anderes.",42,{"sentences":41941,"speaker":111,"num_words":41952,"start":10665,"end":10920},[41942,41944,41946,41948,41950],{"text":41943,"start":10665,"end":10771},"Mein Ziel war so, also ich hab da ja irgendwie studiert und dann hab ich war ich auch im Ausland, war 'n Jahr in Moskau, kam zurück, wollte unbedingt tolle Infrastruktur in Deutschland nutzen, wieder Firma zu machen und so was.",{"text":41945,"start":10773,"end":10814},"Hab tolle Kollegen gefunden, die einfach alles auch viel schlauer waren in in der Uni und so.",{"text":41947,"start":10816,"end":10840},"Aber war in der Uni so, ich musste mich durchkämpfen.",{"text":41949,"start":10843,"end":10889},"Und dann war die Uni fertig und konnte dann auf einmal loslegen, weil wir wieder son Wörterbuch gebaut haben.",{"text":41951,"start":10891,"end":10920},"Und und dafür brauchte ich halt Leute und das fand ich spannend, ne.",100,{"sentences":41954,"speaker":111,"num_words":41965,"start":10920,"end":11166},[41955,41957,41959,41961,41963],{"text":41956,"start":10920,"end":10961},"Ich brauch ich fand das spannend in in an der Uni schon die die Leute, die ich kannte.",{"text":41958,"start":10961,"end":11017},"Der eine hat sich für Performance interessiert, der andere mehr für Administration, der nächste für Datentransformation und Bereinigung.",{"text":41960,"start":11021,"end":11066},"Und die konnt ich dann also zusammenführen und 'n Team aufbauen, was dann Software Engineering macht.",{"text":41962,"start":11069,"end":11093},"Und das haben wir dann eigentlich als das Produkt damals so gesehen.",{"text":41964,"start":11093,"end":11166},"Wir haben gesagt, also mit mir war ich ja wieder meine meine Brüder, die da auch involviert waren wieder, dass sie gesagt haben, wir bauen son Softwareingenieursbüro auf.",92,{"sentences":41967,"speaker":111,"num_words":41791,"start":11169,"end":11380},[41968,41970,41972,41974,41976],{"text":41969,"start":11169,"end":11196},"Das sind so so Begriffe, die gab's damals gar nicht, Softwareingenieursbüro.",{"text":41971,"start":11200,"end":11252},"Wir hatten so dann das das Ding, wir hatten weiße Helme, weil in Deutschland Aufbau Ingenieure weiße Helme haben, ja.",{"text":41973,"start":11255,"end":11331},"Das war so das das das, wenn neue ja Studenten und Mitarbeiter dann bei uns angefangen, haben sie erst mal son Helm bekommen mit ihrem Namen drauf, ja.",{"text":41975,"start":11334,"end":11357},"Das das war so das Verständnis, was wir machen wollten.",{"text":41977,"start":11357,"end":11380},"Wir wollten einfach bessere Software bauen mit weniger Leuten.",{"sentences":41979,"speaker":111,"num_words":41791,"start":11383,"end":11613},[41980,41982,41984,41986,41988],{"text":41981,"start":11383,"end":11401},"Und das haben wir dann auch geschafft.",{"text":41983,"start":11401,"end":11445},"Also das zum Beispiel dieses Wörterbuch, da da haben wir, da sind wir abgegangen, ja.",{"text":41985,"start":11445,"end":11492},"Da haben wir gesagt, okay, wir wollen schnell viele Features bauen, also so, wie heißt das noch mal?",{"text":41987,"start":11495,"end":11524},"User generated content, also Wikipedia Ansatz für Wörterbücher.",{"text":41989,"start":11528,"end":11613},"Das heißt, wir brauchen son Editorial Office, ja, wo's irgendwie viele Features hat, wo dann so Prozesse abgehen wie ja, jemand macht 'n Vorschlag, muss angenommen werden und so was.",{"sentences":41991,"speaker":111,"num_words":42002,"start":11615,"end":11784},[41992,41994,41996,41998,42000],{"text":41993,"start":11615,"end":11635},"Das war grad billig und einfach mit Rails bauen.",{"text":41995,"start":11635,"end":11660},"Wir wussten, Rails hat nicht die Performance für die Suchmaschine.",{"text":41997,"start":11662,"end":11717},"Also haben wir gesagt, okay, für die Suchmaschine nehmen wir Lysin und nehmen dort die Java Virtual Maschine unten drunter.",{"text":41999,"start":11721,"end":11767},"Und damit das beides zusammen funktionieren kann, haben wir halt Ruby auf der Java Virtual Maschine laufen lassen mit JWM.",{"text":42001,"start":11771,"end":11784},"Das hat funktioniert, haben wir hingekriegt.",65,{"sentences":42004,"speaker":111,"num_words":42014,"start":11787,"end":12017},[42005,42007,42009,42010,42012],{"text":42006,"start":11787,"end":11858},"Und das gab's nicht so oft auf der Welt, aber ja, die Performance war da, 1000 Request pro Sekunde haben wir hingekriegt und wir hatten das Editorial Office.",{"text":42008,"start":11858,"end":11886},"Leider ist dann dem Kunde irgendwann da das Geld ausgegangen.",{"text":6264,"start":11890,"end":11891},{"text":42011,"start":11893,"end":12001},"Und er musste mir dann weitergehen und dann Ja, aber nicht, ne, Du siehst, also das mein Ziel war's eigentlich den Teams aufzubauen, die zusammen sich ergänzen, gemeinsam an etwas arbeiten und ja, einfach schwere Nüsse knacken, ne.",{"text":42013,"start":12001,"end":12017},"Das das das war schon das Ziel.",84,{"sentences":42016,"speaker":111,"num_words":41939,"start":12017,"end":12126},[42017,42019],{"text":42018,"start":12017,"end":12052},"Aber das immer war's auch dabei, die die Komponente, das Produkt zu definieren.",{"text":42020,"start":12055,"end":12126},"Also das, wir haben dann mit dem Kunden zusammen das Produkt definiert und haben da sehr, sehr viel Einfluss genommen und die Architektur ergab sich dann halt oftmals daraus.",{"sentences":42022,"speaker":132,"num_words":41500,"start":12129,"end":12226},[42023],{"text":42024,"start":12129,"end":12226},"Und wann kam dann so der Wandel von, ihr seid ein Ingenieursbüro, was quasi Lösungen für andere baut hin zu so was wie Open Project, wo man sagt, okay, das ist jetzt unser eigenes Produkt, das wir selber vertreiben.",{"sentences":42026,"speaker":111,"num_words":42037,"start":12229,"end":12465},[42027,42029,42031,42033,42035],{"text":42028,"start":12229,"end":12260},"Ja, das ist eine eine eine eine komischer Turn, der da stattfindet.",{"text":42030,"start":12264,"end":12342},"Also 2005 und 2000, ja doch 2005 im Bachelorprojekt, der hat mir schon so was benutzt, uns zu koordinieren, also 7 Leute, hat was benutzt, das hieß Track.",{"text":42032,"start":12346,"end":12393},"Track wars und Subversion, Frontend mit son bisschen Aufgaben, Management und Wiki, glaub ich.",{"text":42034,"start":12393,"end":12409},"Bin mir nicht so ganz sicher.",{"text":42036,"start":12412,"end":12465},"Und okay, das war so in meinem Freundeskreis war das so das das Ding, was wir immer verwendet haben für unsere Projekte.",82,{"sentences":42039,"speaker":111,"num_words":41798,"start":12469,"end":12533},[42040,42042],{"text":42041,"start":12469,"end":12485},"Also im Freundeskreis aus der Uni, ne.",{"text":42043,"start":12487,"end":12533},"Und und dann wurde das ziemlich schnell abgelöst durch den durch das viel bessere Werkzeug, Red Mine.",{"sentences":42045,"speaker":132,"num_words":42053,"start":12537,"end":12613},[42046,42048,42050,42051],{"text":42047,"start":12537,"end":12551},"Ich wusste, dass es jetzt kommt.",{"text":42049,"start":12551,"end":12584},"Ich wollte ich wollte grade noch was zu Red Mine sagen und dann, ja.",{"text":1858,"start":12584,"end":12587},{"text":42052,"start":12587,"end":12613},"Weil es auch viel, viel besser ist halt auch.",30,{"sentences":42055,"speaker":111,"num_words":42066,"start":12617,"end":12841},[42056,42058,42060,42062,42064],{"text":42057,"start":12617,"end":12627},"Ja, das ist supergut.",{"text":42059,"start":12631,"end":12658},"Vielleicht für die Leute, die nicht ist das Redmine ist.",{"text":42061,"start":12658,"end":12799},"Redmine ist halt auch eigentlich das größte, was war's damals auf jeden Fall, das größte Open Source Projekt auf Wales Basis, sone Art Jira, ja, mit allem drinnen, was man so braucht, einen Team zu koordinieren, also Issue Tracking, Wiki, Subversion Integration, später halt auch geht.",{"text":42063,"start":12802,"end":12819},"Da gab's sogar so einfache Zeitenerfassung.",{"text":42065,"start":12823,"end":12841},"Ich vergess jetzt bestimmt noch irgendwas Wichtiges.",73,{"sentences":42068,"speaker":132,"num_words":42071,"start":12845,"end":12933},[42069],{"text":42070,"start":12845,"end":12933},"Also ohne das technisch kleinreden zu wollen, aber RedMine hat das halt vor 20 Jahren geschafft oder vor vor 15 Jahren geschafft, den den Charme, den Girau heute ausmacht, damals schon irgendwie zu sehr haben.",35,{"sentences":42073,"speaker":111,"num_words":41372,"start":12936,"end":13090},[42074,42076,42078,42080,42082],{"text":42075,"start":12936,"end":12959},"Ja, ja, da der der Charme, der ist wichtig.",{"text":42077,"start":12959,"end":12987},"Da können wir gleich doch noch noch mal drauf zurückkommen.",{"text":42079,"start":12991,"end":13046},"Jedenfalls haben wir dann halt Dreadman angefangen einzusetzen, uns selbst zu koordinieren, unsere Arbeiten an den Wörterbüchern und so was.",{"text":42081,"start":13048,"end":13076},"Und ja, wir haben auch noch Suburation verwendet und so was.",{"text":42083,"start":13076,"end":13090},"Das das war eigentlich toll.",{"sentences":42085,"speaker":111,"num_words":41730,"start":13093,"end":13289},[42086,42088,42090,42092,42094],{"text":42087,"start":13093,"end":13143},"So und als, der der war sone, ich glaub's aber auch noch 'n paar Wirtschaftskrisen in der Zwischenzeit.",{"text":42089,"start":13143,"end":13188},"Wir hatten so namhafte Kunden, die dann irgendwie alle zusammen gleichzeitig entschieden haben, nicht mehr zu zahlen.",{"text":42091,"start":13192,"end":13209},"Und das war eine ziemlich harte Zeit.",{"text":42093,"start":13209,"end":13260},"Wir waren da kurz vor Bankroptacy und weiter und dann hab ich das gemacht, was ich eigentlich nie machen wollte.",{"text":42095,"start":13260,"end":13289},"Ich bin tatsächlich per Bodylasing gemacht von mir selbst, ne.",{"sentences":42097,"speaker":111,"num_words":42108,"start":13289,"end":13561},[42098,42100,42102,42104,42106],{"text":42099,"start":13289,"end":13356},"Ich bin nach München gegangen, ich war auch in Berlin gewohnt, München gegangen, hab für Siemens Corporate Finance dort war ich dann Berater.",{"text":42101,"start":13358,"end":13397},"Das hat mich innerlich quasi zerrissen eigentlich, weil ich dachte, es ist nicht mein Ding.",{"text":42103,"start":13400,"end":13448},"Und hab denen dann geholfen beim ja, Glossare und Wörterbuchfunktionalitäten in ihr Finance Training reinzubekommen.",{"text":42105,"start":13452,"end":13492},"Und dieses Softwareprojekt, das brauchte dann wieder Koordinierung und wir haben eine für Redman verwendet.",{"text":42107,"start":13495,"end":13561},"Und dort wurde dann hat haben's dann die Leute von Siemens gesehen, junge Leute und haben gesagt, oh cool, das könnt doch auch gebrauchen für unsere Prozesse.",95,{"sentences":42110,"speaker":111,"num_words":42121,"start":13564,"end":13784},[42111,42113,42115,42117,42119],{"text":42112,"start":13564,"end":13588},"Und könnt, aber wir müssten da Kostenplanung haben.",{"text":42114,"start":13590,"end":13633},"Und schwuppdiwupp wurd's danach Glossarentwicklungen gab's dann auf einmal Red Mind Plug in Entwicklung.",{"text":42116,"start":13636,"end":13692},"Und damit waren wir dann auf einmal im Open Source Business, weil ist, das heißt, ne, ist da drin und so weiter.",{"text":42118,"start":13692,"end":13730},"Alles, was man dann baut, ist dann auch wieder GPL, wenn's reingeknotet wird.",{"text":42120,"start":13733,"end":13784},"Und ja, wir haben dann die Software immer weiter erweitert für den Kunden, 'n Corporate Kunde dann und Redman war nicht so Corporate.",80,{"sentences":42123,"speaker":111,"num_words":42134,"start":13788,"end":14179},[42124,42126,42128,42130,42132],{"text":42125,"start":13788,"end":13881},"Und wir haben immer versucht, dann im Chor von Redman Sachen reinzubekommen, damit wir, ne, mit unseren Plug ins ja, die die die Features reinbekommen, die die die Redman dann halt ja, corpidfähig machen.",{"text":42127,"start":13883,"end":13949},"Und da gab's, das war also auf einmal entstand da so ein ein ein, ich wollt die Software für Geldbusiness im Open Source Bereich.",{"text":42129,"start":13952,"end":14058},"Und mit der Zeit wurde es aber immer anstrengender, weil wir echt auch gewachsen sind und da immer mehr drauf aufgebaut haben und wir aber zu wenig Einfluss auf den Chor hatten, unsere Versprechen, die wir uns in unseren Kunden gegeben haben, umsetzen zu können.",{"text":42131,"start":14061,"end":14125},"Genau und dann war's dann irgendwann so weit, dass wir gesagt haben, boah, unsere Roadmap, die entwickelt sich schneller als die von von Redman selbst.",{"text":42133,"start":14128,"end":14179},"Und der Redman Gründer, ich hab 'n leider nie persönlich getroffen, aber ich ich hab 'n großen Respekt vor ihm.",148,{"sentences":42136,"speaker":111,"num_words":41791,"start":14179,"end":14389},[42137,42139,42141,42143,42145],{"text":42138,"start":14179,"end":14219},"Der hat mir eine gute Linie durchgezogen für sich, aber hat halt nicht zu unserer gepasst.",{"text":42140,"start":14222,"end":14292},"Und dann haben wir dann irgendwann, okay, kam bald nicht zusammen, haben wir dann halt einen einen Fock Forg gemacht, also schöne Open Source, ne.",{"text":42142,"start":14294,"end":14321},"Das hatten wir noch Chilli Project und 'n paar Monate später.",{"text":42144,"start":14321,"end":14355},"Mein Bruder hatte da einfach Open Project die Domains gekauft, org und com.",{"text":42146,"start":14358,"end":14389},"Und dann haben wir das gesagt, nee, besserer Name, nehmen wir Open Project.",{"sentences":42148,"speaker":111,"num_words":42159,"start":14392,"end":14551},[42149,42151,42153,42155,42157],{"text":42150,"start":14392,"end":14434},"Das heißt, das war eigentlich noch so immer noch, okay, Open Source Projekt, wir bauen Software für Geld.",{"text":42152,"start":14436,"end":14464},"Und ne, waren so Kunden dann irgendwie Deutsche Telekom und so.",{"text":42154,"start":14466,"end":14506},"Und ja, und dann kommt dann so die Idee, ne, okay, lass uns das doch einfach mal hosten.",{"text":42156,"start":14506,"end":14521},"Das war son neues Ding.",{"text":42158,"start":14523,"end":14551},"Ist doch cool, weil dein GPL ist dann halt kein Problem, ja.",64,{"sentences":42161,"speaker":111,"num_words":41466,"start":14551,"end":14704},[42162,42164,42166,42168],{"text":42163,"start":14551,"end":14563},"Du Du hostest das einfach.",{"text":42165,"start":14566,"end":14604},"Alles, was Du hinter deinem auf den Server packst, musst Du nicht rausgeben als Code.",{"text":42167,"start":14604,"end":14643},"Das war son bisschen eigentlich fast anti, anti Open Source könnte man's fast sagen, ne.",{"text":42169,"start":14643,"end":14704},"Da kannst Du halt also redmin nehmen, da heißt Open Project erweitern und musst es nicht rausgeben, hast Du vielleicht einen einen Wettbewerbsvorteil.",{"sentences":42171,"speaker":132,"num_words":42174,"start":14708,"end":14757},[42172],{"text":42173,"start":14708,"end":14757},"Ist Open Project heute immer noch ein Red Mind Fock oder habt ihr's irgendwann mal komplett auf eigene Beine gestellt?",20,{"sentences":42176,"speaker":111,"num_words":41824,"start":14757,"end":14903},[42177,42179,42181,42183,42185],{"text":42178,"start":14757,"end":14779},"Du findest immer noch Code von Red Mind drin.",{"text":42180,"start":14779,"end":14828},"Ja, und Leute, die von Red Mind kommen und umsatteln, die finden noch grundlegende Konzepte darin wieder, ja.",{"text":42182,"start":14828,"end":14865},"Das ist das ist noch recht recht in den Grundzügen kann man das erkennen.",{"text":42184,"start":14865,"end":14887},"Kriegen wir auch mal wieder, das Feedback.",{"text":42186,"start":14891,"end":14903},"Aber auch zu unserem Vorteil.",{"sentences":42188,"speaker":111,"num_words":41798,"start":14903,"end":14967},[42189],{"text":42190,"start":14903,"end":14967},"Also Leute fanden Redman gut, irgendwie nützlich und die finden sich dann wieder und freuen sich darüber, wie viel moderner das alles ist, ja.",{"sentences":42192,"speaker":132,"num_words":42199,"start":14969,"end":15036},[42193,42195,42197],{"text":42194,"start":14969,"end":14989},"Man man sieht es eben nicht an, so.",{"text":42196,"start":14989,"end":15010},"Das kann man kann man, glaub ich, mal festhalten.",{"text":42198,"start":15013,"end":15036},"Dass da Redmine irgendwie drunter steckt oder so.",25,{"sentences":42201,"speaker":111,"num_words":41398,"start":15036,"end":15257},[42202,42204,42206,42207,42209],{"text":42203,"start":15036,"end":15052},"Ah, okay cool, das freut mich.",{"text":42205,"start":15052,"end":15069},"Ja, wir haben auch viel gemacht, ne.",{"text":5039,"start":15069,"end":15073},{"text":42208,"start":15075,"end":15169},"Wir haben dann dieses Spiel des DisARs Businesses probiert, dass wir einfach ja Open Project auf multitensive fähig gemacht haben und sozusagen 'n billiges Hosting angeboten haben mit unseren Enterprise Features drin.",{"text":42210,"start":15169,"end":15257},"Also Enterprise Corporate, ne, ist das, was die Idee, die wir hatten, war halt durch besseres UI, moderneres Interaktions ja, Oberflächenansprechender zu sein als Red Mine und 'ner anderen Kunden anzusprechen.",{"sentences":42212,"speaker":111,"num_words":41743,"start":15260,"end":15562},[42213,42215,42217,42219,42221],{"text":42214,"start":15260,"end":15270},"Ging nicht so gut.",{"text":42216,"start":15270,"end":15333},"Das das also dieser Markt ist voll mit Projektmanagement Software, Software a Service und sich da zu behaupten, ist nicht leicht.",{"text":42218,"start":15337,"end":15358},"Also das ne, da da mit Geld zu verdienen.",{"text":42220,"start":15362,"end":15473},"Interessanterweise, was dann aber Jahre später, also ich mein, in der Zeit, ne, war wurde immer halt quer subventioniert durch Softwareingenieurs Bürosarbeit und Produkt aufgebaut und und hier Auftrag und da Auftrag und hier erweitern durch die Fähigkeit und die Fähigkeit.",{"text":42222,"start":15476,"end":15562},"Ja, mit der Zeit dadurch, dass es halt 'n Open Source Projekt war, jedenfalls versucht, also die die Open Source Community rund Open Project, ja, das die gab's ja eigentlich am Anfang gar nicht.",{"sentences":42224,"speaker":111,"num_words":42235,"start":15564,"end":15717},[42225,42227,42229,42231,42233],{"text":42226,"start":15564,"end":15612},"Und die heute ist die Open Source Community unter Open Project eigentlich was anderes, als man sich so romantischerweise vorstellt.",{"text":42228,"start":15615,"end":15653},"Es sind eigentlich die Kunden, die Erweiterungen an Open Project finanziert haben und drangeblieben sind.",{"text":42230,"start":15653,"end":15669},"Das ist die Open Source Community, ne.",{"text":42232,"start":15672,"end":15701},"Das es geht ums Entwickeln von Software, die Organisation dient.",{"text":42234,"start":15704,"end":15717},"Organisation ist kein Hobbybereich, ne.",57,{"sentences":42237,"speaker":111,"num_words":696,"start":15717,"end":15898},[42238,42240,42242,42244,42246],{"text":42239,"start":15717,"end":15776},"Das ist da da entwickelt niemand irgendwie fiese Prozessoptimierung, Geschäftsprozesse abbilden und und Kostenerfassung und Exporte, Importe.",{"text":42241,"start":15776,"end":15810},"Das das passiert nicht im Hobbybereich, ist nicht so wie bei Nextcloud, ne.",{"text":42243,"start":15810,"end":15855},"Nextcloud, jeder braucht mal den Fileserver, Fotos hochladen, Dateien teilen oder so was.",{"text":42245,"start":15855,"end":15877},"Das das bei bei Open Proteyge ist das anders.",{"text":42247,"start":15880,"end":15898},"Unsere Community ist also mehr aus diesem Kunden heraus.",{"sentences":42249,"speaker":111,"num_words":42260,"start":15901,"end":16033},[42250,42252,42254,42256,42258],{"text":42251,"start":15901,"end":15913},"Genau, aber diese Community existierte.",{"text":42253,"start":15917,"end":15933},"Und was wollten die eigentlich von uns, ne?",{"text":42255,"start":15933,"end":15964},"Die wollten dann häufig eigentlich, dass die Software bei ihnen aufm Server läuft.",{"text":42257,"start":15967,"end":15972},"Siemens wollte das.",{"text":42259,"start":15975,"end":16033},"Die, na oder ja, eigentlich alle Kunden, die zu uns kamen, die wollten's eigentlich auf ihren in ihren Rechenzentrumzentren laufen lassen.",50,{"sentences":42262,"speaker":111,"num_words":42265,"start":16036,"end":16067},[42263],{"text":42264,"start":16036,"end":16067},"Und diese dort haben wir dann irgendwann angefangen halt 'n Produkt zu Ist",13,{"sentences":42267,"speaker":132,"num_words":42278,"start":16067,"end":16200},[42268,42270,42272,42274,42276],{"text":42269,"start":16067,"end":16088},"das son, sorry, wenn ich da kurz unterbreche.",{"text":42271,"start":16092,"end":16104},"Ist das son deutsches Mittelstandsproblem?",{"text":42273,"start":16107,"end":16174},"So, dass aber wir wir wollen das hier nicht als Software Service einkaufen, sondern wir wollen das auf unsere Infrastruktur und unter unserer und unter unserer Kontrolle.",{"text":42275,"start":16174,"end":16182},"Ist das Ja.",{"text":42277,"start":16185,"end":16200},"Ist das was son kulturelles Ding?",49,{"sentences":42280,"speaker":111,"num_words":41592,"start":16203,"end":16451},[42281,42283,42285,42287,42289],{"text":42282,"start":16203,"end":16219},"Das ist nicht nur Mittelstand, ne.",{"text":42284,"start":16219,"end":16246},"Also Du wir haben auch namhafte Autohersteller, die das machen.",{"text":42286,"start":16246,"end":16290},"Die auf die sagen, nee, es gibt no way, dass wir unsere Daten bei Amazon reingeben.",{"text":42288,"start":16293,"end":16307},"Nee, wie lang, passiert nicht, ja.",{"text":42290,"start":16310,"end":16451},"Bisschen was anderes ist irgendwie die Bahn oder so was, ne, die die Eisenbahn bei uns, die Deutsche, die die hat da nicht so Probleme, aber so ne Mittelstand und auch Großunternehmen in Deutschland, wenn die halt Industriegeheimnisse haben, das ist völlig klar, dass das nicht auf amerikanische Server geht oder auf amerikanisch kontrollierte Server geht.",{"sentences":42292,"speaker":111,"num_words":41874,"start":16451,"end":16725},[42293,42295,42297,42299,42301],{"text":42294,"start":16451,"end":16510},"Also es, weißt Du, bei Siemens damals, die die haben da son Ding, das ist 'n rechtensamt, das heißt Eagle, cooler Name.",{"text":42296,"start":16513,"end":16556},"Das das das war immer 'n Riesenthema, da irgendwie Zugang zu bekommen und da Sachen deployen zu können.",{"text":42298,"start":16556,"end":16681},"Ja, also das das das glaubt man irgendwie so als irgendwie, ich weiß nicht, wenn jetzt son Rails Entwickler kennt, vielleicht die Rooku oder so was, ne, wo Du einfach mal son eine Railsapplikationen deployen kannst, ohne irgendwie mal 'n Server gesehen zu haben oder so was.",{"text":42300,"start":16681,"end":16696},"Das war mir immer fremd, ja?",{"text":42302,"start":16696,"end":16725},"Das ist das war eine Welt, die die hab ich nicht verstanden.",{"sentences":42304,"speaker":111,"num_words":41837,"start":16725,"end":16924},[42305,42307,42309,42311,42313],{"text":42306,"start":16725,"end":16741},"Ich fand die erstens teuer, ja?",{"text":42308,"start":16744,"end":16779},"Zweitens dacht ich mir, wo wo läuft das Zeug eigentlich und wie kontrolliere ich das?",{"text":42310,"start":16782,"end":16845},"Also ich war immer so auch, dass ich gesagt hab, na ja, natürlich muss ich die Hardware irgendwie verstehen, das Linux installieren und keine Ahnung was.",{"text":42312,"start":16848,"end":16904},"Und für unsere Kunden war es dann halt für die großen, wichtigen Kunden, die das strategisch eingesetzt haben, war es halt auch 'n Thema.",{"text":42314,"start":16907,"end":16924},"Und dann hast Du dann so 2 Wachstumskurven.",{"sentences":42316,"speaker":111,"num_words":41811,"start":16928,"end":17228},[42317,42319,42321,42323,42325],{"text":42318,"start":16928,"end":17044},"Die eine Wachstumskurve ist sozusagen unser SARS Business, ja, also dieses Open Project läuft bei uns aufm Server, das war damals echt noch so, Amazon und tatsächlich mit all dem fiesen Überwachungskram, die man damals in der Start up Bubble so verwendet hat.",{"text":42320,"start":17044,"end":17098},"Also Cookie, weiß nicht mehr, wie es heißt, also son son Ding, wo Du eigentlich zugucken kannst, wo Leute klicken, ja?",{"text":42322,"start":17098,"end":17130},"Oder Google Analytics war da auch noch mit drauf, Hubspot, ja?",{"text":42324,"start":17130,"end":17162},"Also lauter, fieses, übelstes Zeug, was Menschen komplett überwacht, ja?",{"text":42326,"start":17164,"end":17228},"Das war alles dann auch noch so drin, die hatten gar nicht so das Bewusstsein dafür und das ist hat sich bei uns entwickelt tatsächlich, ja.",{"sentences":42328,"speaker":111,"num_words":41939,"start":17228,"end":17334},[42329,42331,42333,42335,42337],{"text":42330,"start":17228,"end":17250},"Wir dachten also, man baut so heute SARSanwendung.",{"text":42332,"start":17254,"end":17262},"Alle machen das so.",{"text":42334,"start":17262,"end":17273},"Macht man so, gehört so.",{"text":42336,"start":17273,"end":17289},"Man muss ja wissen, was da passiert.",{"text":42338,"start":17292,"end":17334},"Aber letzten Endes waren wir halt auch zu blöd oder nicht fähig genug, all diese vielen Daten auszuwerten.",{"sentences":42340,"speaker":111,"num_words":41549,"start":17338,"end":17343},[42341],{"text":42342,"start":17338,"end":17343},"Ne, ja.",{"sentences":42344,"speaker":132,"num_words":42348,"start":17343,"end":17378},[42345,42347],{"text":42346,"start":17343,"end":17374},"Jetzt ist ja Open Project, ich mein, es steht ja schon im Name.",{"text":6264,"start":17377,"end":17378},14,{"sentences":42350,"speaker":111,"num_words":111,"start":17378,"end":17381},[42351],{"text":1098,"start":17378,"end":17381},{"sentences":42353,"speaker":132,"num_words":42364,"start":17381,"end":17681},[42354,42356,42358,42360,42362],{"text":42355,"start":17381,"end":17395},"es ist irgendwie quelloffen.",{"text":42357,"start":17399,"end":17448},"Und wenn das als Fork von Redbine angefangen hat, dann ist ja auch klar, warum es offen ist, ne.",{"text":42359,"start":17448,"end":17508},"Ich mein, wenn Du wenn Du Open Source da da nutzt, dann musst Du das ja irgendwie auch teilweise wieder selbst veröffentlichen so.",{"text":42361,"start":17511,"end":17653},"Wann oder oder war das überhaupt jemals sone bewusste Entscheidung bei euch dann zu sagen, na ja, das ist Teil von unserer Identität, dass das halt eben offen ist und jeder damit rummachen kann oder war das eher son son son Nebeneffekt, weil es halt von Red Mine gekommen ist und gar nicht sone bewusste Entscheidung war so?",{"text":42363,"start":17655,"end":17681},"Wie wie hat sich das entwickelt, dass wenn ich mir heute",115,{"sentences":42366,"speaker":111,"num_words":42369,"start":17683,"end":17694},[42367],{"text":42368,"start":17683,"end":17694},"Ja, das ist die",4,{"sentences":42371,"speaker":132,"num_words":41440,"start":17694,"end":17768},[42372,42374,42375],{"text":42373,"start":17694,"end":17740},"Open Project Webseite angucke, ne, da ist es ja schon sehr prominent so und ist ja auch cool.",{"text":1858,"start":17740,"end":17742},{"text":42376,"start":17742,"end":17768},"Aber ich kann mir auch vorstellen, dass das nicht immer so war.",{"sentences":42378,"speaker":111,"num_words":42381,"start":17768,"end":17775},[42379],{"text":42380,"start":17768,"end":17775},"Nee, das ist",3,{"sentences":42383,"speaker":132,"num_words":41505,"start":17777,"end":17798},[42384],{"text":42385,"start":17777,"end":17798},"der Weg dahin vielleicht ein ein nichtlinearer war.",{"sentences":42387,"speaker":111,"num_words":42398,"start":17798,"end":17962},[42388,42390,42392,42394,42396],{"text":42389,"start":17798,"end":17805},"Nee, überhaupt nicht.",{"text":42391,"start":17805,"end":17818},"Das ist son Emanzipationsprozess irgendwie.",{"text":42393,"start":17818,"end":17873},"Also das da da muss ich einen Denken und einen einen einen einen auch son Wertekonzept hat sich dann hat sich dann entwickelt.",{"text":42395,"start":17875,"end":17901},"Also ich versuch das, das mal son bisschen noch mal zu schreiben.",{"text":42397,"start":17901,"end":17962},"Also wir sind ja da auf einmal in son Business reingekommen, weil wir Open Source einfach mal hernehmen konnten und damit einen Headstart hatten, ne.",68,{"sentences":42400,"speaker":111,"num_words":42411,"start":17962,"end":18174},[42401,42403,42405,42407,42409],{"text":42402,"start":17962,"end":18017},"Wir konnten einfach dieses web min nehmen und hatten das schon einen völlig vollständig funktionierendes System, was wir nur erweitert haben.",{"text":42404,"start":18017,"end":18033},"Das heißt, das Business wurde dadurch ermöglicht.",{"text":42406,"start":18033,"end":18073},"Wir haben Open Source genommen, unser Business zu starten, unbewusst, ob es da funktioniert, ja.",{"text":42408,"start":18073,"end":18163},"Das und das war halt also einen Zufall, aber das das das Du kannst jedes Open Source Framework oder oder Produkt nehmen und überlegen, dass Du da mit 'n Business startest, egal was, ja.",{"text":42410,"start":18163,"end":18174},"Du legst dir gut.",81,{"sentences":42413,"speaker":111,"num_words":42174,"start":18174,"end":18228},[42414],{"text":42415,"start":18174,"end":18228},"Weil ist aufwendig, sone Community aufzubauen und son son son Produkt zu pflegen, aber es geht und das ist krass.",{"sentences":42417,"speaker":132,"num_words":41743,"start":18228,"end":18503},[42418,42420,42422,42424],{"text":42419,"start":18228,"end":18253},"Du machst da 'n interessanten Punkt auf, ne?",{"text":42421,"start":18253,"end":18371},"Weil also ich hab so was noch nie gemacht und ich glaube auch nicht, dass der Großteil der Open Source Community jemandem böse wäre, wenn man da son Open Source Projekt nimmt und dann versucht das irgendwie zu kommeralisieren, weil das ist ja Teil der Spielregeln, ne?",{"text":42423,"start":18371,"end":18394},"Jeder kann deine Sachen nehmen und damit eben eben was machen.",{"text":42425,"start":18397,"end":18503},"Aber gab's da son Moment, wo die, ich sag mal, bestehende Redmine Community vielleicht so auf euch drauf geguckt hat und gesagt hat so, boah, das ist aber nicht so nett, dass die hier unsere Arbeit nehmen und damit irgendwie Geld verdienen wollen?",{"sentences":42427,"speaker":111,"num_words":41421,"start":18506,"end":18556},[42428],{"text":42429,"start":18506,"end":18556},"Ja, Geld verdienen wollten dort viele in dem Umfeld, die haben dann halt SARS Businesses drum gebaut und waren damit vielleicht 'n",{"sentences":42431,"speaker":132,"num_words":41549,"start":18556,"end":18562},[42432],{"text":42433,"start":18556,"end":18562},"bisschen Schlaf",{"sentences":42435,"speaker":111,"num_words":41549,"start":18562,"end":18568},[42436],{"text":42437,"start":18562,"end":18568},"von mir.",{"sentences":42439,"speaker":132,"num_words":111,"start":18572,"end":18573},[42440],{"text":18575,"start":18572,"end":18573},{"sentences":42442,"speaker":111,"num_words":42453,"start":18577,"end":18692},[42443,42445,42447,42449,42451],{"text":42444,"start":18577,"end":18588},"Nicht aber unbedingt der Originalgründer.",{"text":42446,"start":18592,"end":18615},"Von dem weiß ich nicht genau, wie er finanziert war.",{"text":42448,"start":18617,"end":18641},"Das tut mir leid, da hab ich die Infos nicht.",{"text":42450,"start":18643,"end":18658},"Dem würd ich das nicht unterstellen.",{"text":42452,"start":18661,"end":18692},"Der hat einfach sein Ding gemacht, so was birgt er das für mich?",44,{"sentences":42455,"speaker":111,"num_words":42466,"start":18696,"end":18967},[42456,42458,42460,42462,42464],{"text":42457,"start":18696,"end":18781},"Nee, also da ging's echt noch so Hardcore darum, dass man halt son Wettbewerbsvorteil hat und deswegen hat man das hinter seinem Server sozusagen gehostet, angeboten und gar nicht den Code mehr dann rausgerückt.",{"text":42459,"start":18784,"end":18797},"Das war so das das Anfangsding.",{"text":42461,"start":18801,"end":18892},"Und und man hat halt son Wettbewerbsvorteil, wo man schon 'n fertiges Produkt hat, was man auf Server stellen konnte, sozusagen dieses Freerider Konzept, ne, nennt man das son bisschen abwertend heutzutage, Freerider.",{"text":42463,"start":18896,"end":18938},"Und ich wäre jetzt auch nicht happy, wenn Leute Open Rider immer folgen würden jetzt, ne.",{"text":42465,"start":18938,"end":18967},"Und die waren bestimmt auch nicht happy darüber, dass wir gefolgt haben.",101,{"sentences":42468,"speaker":111,"num_words":41910,"start":18967,"end":19116},[42469,42471,42473,42475,42477],{"text":42470,"start":18967,"end":19006},"Und wir haben auch nicht leichtfertig gefolgt, weil wir wussten, wie viel Arbeit der Trend steckt.",{"text":42472,"start":19006,"end":19020},"Es ging halt nur nicht weiter.",{"text":42474,"start":19020,"end":19063},"Wir konnten halt für unsere Kunden nicht die Features umsetzen, die sie brauchten, die sie uns gefragt haben.",{"text":42476,"start":19063,"end":19083},"Und hatten wir halt die Wahl, ne?",{"text":42478,"start":19083,"end":19116},"Und irgendwann haben wir halt gesagt, jetzt ist der Punkt, jetzt pauken wir.",{"sentences":42480,"speaker":111,"num_words":42489,"start":19119,"end":19309},[42481,42483,42485,42487],{"text":42482,"start":19119,"end":19205},"Es ist nicht leicht, wenn wir wochenlang, monatelang darüber diskutiert, wie wir das machen, wie wir's kompatibel behalten mit Redmine und so weiter, dass wir da zusammenfinden und gegenseitig ergänzen und so was, ja.",{"text":42484,"start":19207,"end":19242},"Das das wir wollten dort nicht Red Mine irgendwie gegen Schienbein treten oder so was.",{"text":42486,"start":19242,"end":19298},"Das war nicht unsere Absicht, aber wir wollten halt unsere unsere, ja, die die Kundenbedürfnisse befriedigen und das das ging einfach nicht mehr.",{"text":42488,"start":19298,"end":19309},"Das war zu kompliziert.",76,{"sentences":42491,"speaker":132,"num_words":42002,"start":19312,"end":19485},[42492,42494,42496,42497,42499],{"text":42493,"start":19312,"end":19366},"Jetzt ist ja, also Software Developer gibt's ja schon einige da draußen, auch wenn die Leute sagen, es gibt immer noch nicht genug.",{"text":42495,"start":19369,"end":19407},"Und jede jede Firma steht ja son bisschen im Talentwettbewerb bei der Personalsuche miteinander.",{"text":1858,"start":19410,"end":19411},{"text":42498,"start":19411,"end":19439},"Die Tatsache, dass ihr da jetzt eben auf Open Source setzt.",{"text":42500,"start":19443,"end":19485},"Ist das für euch gefühlt in dem Bereich, was Hiring angeht, ein Wettbewerbsvorteil oder 'n Wettbewerbsnachteil?",{"sentences":42502,"speaker":111,"num_words":42512,"start":19488,"end":19606},[42503,42505,42506,42508,42510],{"text":42504,"start":19488,"end":19496},"Ganz klar Vorteil.",{"text":42504,"start":19499,"end":19504},{"text":42507,"start":19506,"end":19528},"Das und das merkt man auch in der Geschichte.",{"text":42509,"start":19528,"end":19585},"Also früher war's für uns nicht so leicht, Personal zu finden, weil wir auch diese Open Source Karte gar nicht so ausgespielt haben.",{"text":42511,"start":19585,"end":19606},"Ich bleib mal son bisschen Ja, vielleicht",45,{"sentences":42514,"speaker":132,"num_words":42519,"start":19606,"end":19645},[42515,42517],{"text":42516,"start":19606,"end":19621},"einmal zur Einordnung da vorher.",{"text":42518,"start":19621,"end":19645},"Wie wie viele seid ihr grade so im Team, aktuell?",15,{"sentences":42521,"speaker":111,"num_words":42524,"start":19649,"end":19660},[42522],{"text":42523,"start":19649,"end":19660},"Wir sind so über 50.",5,{"sentences":42526,"speaker":132,"num_words":41549,"start":19663,"end":19669},[42527,42528],{"text":19667,"start":19663,"end":19664},{"text":6264,"start":19664,"end":19669},{"sentences":42530,"speaker":111,"num_words":42453,"start":19669,"end":19782},[42531,42533,42535,42537,42539],{"text":42532,"start":19669,"end":19678},"Über 50, ja.",{"text":42534,"start":19680,"end":19695},"Können wir auch noch mal drüber reden.",{"text":42536,"start":19697,"end":19723},"Die ja, die die die Früher war das sehr, sehr schwer.",{"text":42538,"start":19723,"end":19749},"Rays Entwickler waren halt immer schon sehr gefragt von Anfang an.",{"text":42540,"start":19749,"end":19782},"Die hatten halt diese Eigenschaften, dass sie ja wie Software Craftventship einfach",{"sentences":42542,"speaker":132,"num_words":111,"start":19784,"end":19785},[42543],{"text":6264,"start":19784,"end":19785},{"sentences":42545,"speaker":111,"num_words":42556,"start":19788,"end":20059},[42546,42548,42550,42552,42554],{"text":42547,"start":19788,"end":19808},"Gemeinsam als Entwicklercommunity so so haben, ne.",{"text":42549,"start":19808,"end":19821},"Das war das war völlig klar.",{"text":42551,"start":19821,"end":19904},"Rails Code kommt halt auch mit Tests daher, ja oder die Themen Themen wie Design, auch das ganze Design Thinking war damals auch total en vogue und so was.",{"text":42553,"start":19904,"end":19962},"Also es das das kam irgendwie son, da gab's eine große Homogenität bei den Menschen dort, wie wie Software gebaut werden sollte.",{"text":42555,"start":19965,"end":20059},"Und das war 'n sehr, sehr hohes Niveau, wenn's vergleichst mit, es bitte nicht falsch verstehen, aber typischerweise, wenn Leute mit PHP angefangen haben, dann haben die das so gemacht, wie ich damals Actionscript 3 gelernt hat, ja.",102,{"sentences":42558,"speaker":111,"num_words":42569,"start":20059,"end":20372},[42559,42561,42563,42565,42567],{"text":42560,"start":20059,"end":20093},"Also das das das das da war kein kein Craftsonship dahinter am Anfang.",{"text":42562,"start":20093,"end":20121},"Die haben natürlich auch Frameworks entwickelt und haben dann nachgezogen.",{"text":42564,"start":20125,"end":20282},"Aber die Kultur von von Anfang an sehr saubere, Architekturen aufzubauen im Sinne so wie ein Schreiner einen Tisch zusammenbaut nach den gleichen Verfahren und den gleichen Methoden und Qualitätsstandards, damit nicht einfach mal dort wo eine Schraube reinkommen soll, was weiß ich nicht, eine eine Nagel reingeheimer, sondern da muss eine Schraube rein, fertig, ja.",{"text":42566,"start":20284,"end":20359},"Das das das war halt bei Rails auch ja, ich glaub, stärker vertreten als bei anderen, weil gab's ja noch JTVI und so was, also die großen Java Enterprise Edition.",{"text":42568,"start":20362,"end":20372},"Das war so zu abgehoben.",114,{"sentences":42571,"speaker":111,"num_words":42582,"start":20376,"end":20631},[42572,42574,42576,42578,42580],{"text":42573,"start":20376,"end":20383},"Das war nicht genug.",{"text":42575,"start":20386,"end":20421},"Will sagen, diese Entwickler waren halt sehr gefragt und es war schwer, die zu bekommen.",{"text":42577,"start":20421,"end":20479},"Das heißt, eigentlich haben wir sie an der Uni abgeworben und ausgebildet damals und oder an der Uni schon rein angeworben und und und ausgebildet.",{"text":42579,"start":20482,"end":20502},"Und mit der Zeit hat sich's dann aber verändert.",{"text":42581,"start":20502,"end":20631},"Also die unsere Geschichte ging ja dann noch so weiter, dass dann halt der, dass dieses Arbeiten für Geld, für eine Open Source Code irgendwann auch dafür gesorgt hat, dass immer mehr Open Source veröffentlicht wurde und Leute uns einfach installiert haben, unsere Software und dann zu uns kamen und dann Hilfe brauchten.",106,{"sentences":42584,"speaker":111,"num_words":42002,"start":20631,"end":20811},[42585,42587,42589,42591,42593],{"text":42586,"start":20631,"end":20686},"Und dann haben wir halt dort 'n Produkt drauf gebaut, nämlich eben grade diese Subscriptions, Support, Hilfe, ne und so weiter.",{"text":42588,"start":20688,"end":20720},"Und das ist das, die Kurve ist halt schneller gewachsen als die SARS Produkt.",{"text":42590,"start":20724,"end":20783},"Ergänzt sich aber interessanterweise supertoll, liebe 2 Sachen, SARS und und On Premise Produkte, damit die hin- und her tauschen kann.",{"text":42592,"start":20783,"end":20801},"Das kann ich auch noch mal erzählen.",{"text":42594,"start":20805,"end":20811},"Supercoole Sache.",{"sentences":42596,"speaker":111,"num_words":42607,"start":20814,"end":20977},[42597,42599,42601,42603,42605],{"text":42598,"start":20814,"end":20853},"Und dann haben wir halt auch tatsächlich angefangen, das das zu verstehen, ne, das das besser zu verstehen.",{"text":42600,"start":20853,"end":20880},"Und dann haben wir angefangen, alle alle unnötige Cookies runterzuschmeißen.",{"text":42602,"start":20883,"end":20921},"Wir haben keinen Cookie Banner bei uns auf der Webseite, aber wir halt nix tracken.",{"text":42604,"start":20924,"end":20944},"Wir haben keinen Google Analytics mehr, keinen Hubspot mehr.",{"text":42606,"start":20944,"end":20977},"Wir nehmen alles so, Open Source Software für die Sachen, die man so braucht.",66,{"sentences":42609,"speaker":111,"num_words":42398,"start":20977,"end":21151},[42610,42612,42614,42616,42618],{"text":42611,"start":20977,"end":20995},"Kein Google Analytics hab ich schon gesagt, ne.",{"text":42613,"start":20997,"end":21059},"Und und damit kommt dann halt auch irgendwie auf son Bewusstsein, so sone Art digitales, ja veganes Leben so, ja, also digital vegan.",{"text":42615,"start":21063,"end":21121},"Das ist son bisschen, man kann sagen, okay, man kann sich die Hose auch mit dabei sein anziehen, aber irgendwie macht das Spaß, ja.",{"text":42617,"start":21121,"end":21130},"Es ist irgendwie cool.",{"text":42619,"start":21130,"end":21151},"Es ist das Richtige, das so zu machen, ja.",{"sentences":42621,"speaker":111,"num_words":42632,"start":21153,"end":21567},[42622,42624,42626,42628,42630],{"text":42623,"start":21153,"end":21191},"Das ist nicht cool, Leuten dabei zu zugucken, wie sie Texte eingeben, ja.",{"text":42625,"start":21191,"end":21230},"Das ist nicht schön, das ist das ist Privatbereich, das ist nicht richtig, das zu tun.",{"text":42627,"start":21233,"end":21287},"Und Leuten denen die Möglichkeit zu geben, dass sie im Privaten arbeiten können, dass dass sie auf ihren eigenen Rechnungen arbeiten können.",{"text":42629,"start":21290,"end":21424},"Und ja, das begeistert halt tatsächlich auch Entwickler dann, die sehen dann, okay, Open Source, wow, alles, was ich tue, bleibt stirbt ja gar nicht damit, wenn mein Ruby and Rails Start-up irgendwie die Finanzierungsrunde ausgeht, sondern ich kann's weiterverwenden, dass das das ist für viele viel wert, ja.",{"text":42631,"start":21424,"end":21567},"Also es ist für viele nicht nur wert, a da zu arbeiten, sondern, ja, wenn Du von Shopify kommst oder so was, bist auch bereit dafür, einen, weiß ich nicht, dessen 'n kleineres Gehalt erzeugt, dass den Shopify sehr, sehr hohe Gehälter, wenn sie dafür halt an etwas sinnstiftendem Arbeiten können.",151,{"sentences":42634,"speaker":111,"num_words":42637,"start":21567,"end":21595},[42635],{"text":42636,"start":21567,"end":21595},"Und haben wir häufiger gehört und macht mich sehr stolz, ja.",11,{"sentences":42639,"speaker":132,"num_words":42637,"start":21598,"end":21623},[42640],{"text":42641,"start":21598,"end":21623},"Als jemand, der von Shopify gekommen ist, kann ich das bestätigen?",{"sentences":42643,"speaker":111,"num_words":41385,"start":21627,"end":21713},[42644,42646],{"text":42645,"start":21627,"end":21634},"Ah, okay, cool.",{"text":42647,"start":21636,"end":21713},"Bist Du in dieser krassen Wachstumsblase dort reingekommen, wo die so megafett hochgezogen haben und keiner mehr wusste, worum sie eigentlich im Laden sind und was sie arbeiten sollen?",{"sentences":42649,"speaker":132,"num_words":42656,"start":21716,"end":21839},[42650,42652,42654],{"text":42651,"start":21716,"end":21751},"Also ich hab, so als kurze Randnotiz, ich hab glaube ich so beides erlebt.",{"text":42653,"start":21751,"end":21793},"Ich hab das das Ende von diesem Wachstumsboom, der so auch mit Corona kam, ne?",{"text":42655,"start":21793,"end":21839},"Hab ich mitbekommen Und dann den Anfang von dieser in großen Techfirmen werden jetzt einfach alle Leute rausgeschmissen",47,{"sentences":42658,"speaker":111,"num_words":41549,"start":21841,"end":21846},[42659],{"text":42660,"start":21841,"end":21846},"Ah, klar.",{"sentences":42662,"speaker":132,"num_words":42348,"start":21850,"end":21892},[42663,42664,42666],{"text":21854,"start":21850,"end":21851},{"text":42665,"start":21851,"end":21859},"So, ja?",{"text":42667,"start":21859,"end":21892},"Also ich hab im Prinzip so einen einen Tidenhup einmal mitgemacht.",{"sentences":42669,"speaker":111,"num_words":111,"start":21895,"end":21896},[42670],{"text":6264,"start":21895,"end":21896},{"sentences":42672,"speaker":132,"num_words":41411,"start":21899,"end":22020},[42673,42675,42677,42679,42681],{"text":42674,"start":21899,"end":21913},"Es war war ganz interessant so.",{"text":42676,"start":21913,"end":21927},"Ja, aber das nur Mega.",{"text":42678,"start":21931,"end":21977},"Jetzt, weil weil Du grade auch so die die Rails Architektur und so das Mindset irgendwie in der Community angesprochen hast.",{"text":42680,"start":21981,"end":22013},"Rails hat sich ja in den letzten 10 Jahren auch schon sehr verändert, ja?",{"text":42682,"start":22016,"end":22020},"Also Ja.",{"sentences":42684,"speaker":132,"num_words":41824,"start":22023,"end":22163},[42685,42687,42689,42691],{"text":42686,"start":22023,"end":22042},"Ich glaub, also das klingt vielleicht zu viel.",{"text":42688,"start":22042,"end":22112},"Wenn man heute Raids anguckt, sieht man immer noch das Raids auch von damals so, aber wieso sich das ganze Ökosystem auch drumherum einfach entwickelt hat, ne?",{"text":42690,"start":22112,"end":22152},"Da gab's irgendwie mal so den Hype hin zu Single Page Applications, Oh ja.",{"text":42692,"start":22154,"end":22163},"Und und überhaupt so.",{"sentences":42694,"speaker":111,"num_words":111,"start":22163,"end":22165},[42695],{"text":6264,"start":22163,"end":22165},{"sentences":42697,"speaker":132,"num_words":42704,"start":22168,"end":22409},[42698,42700,42702],{"text":42699,"start":22168,"end":22253},"Und dann war ja Rails mit 1 der ersten, die so gesagt haben, na ja, wir kommen von diesem Server Side Rendering und wir wollen das irgendwie auch wieder weiter nutzen oder wieder wieder forcieren.",{"text":42701,"start":22253,"end":22301},"Da kamen dann so Sachen wie wie Hotwire und irgendwie Live Components und irgendwie so was alles dazu.",{"text":42703,"start":22305,"end":22409},"Nehmt ihr so was dann mit oder sagt ihr einfach, na ja, unsere Kunden sind vielleicht jetzt auch eher größere Konzerne und müssen nicht gleich jeden Hype irgendwie mitmachen und wir setzen da lieber mal was aus oder wie wie verhält sich das?",96,{"sentences":42706,"speaker":111,"num_words":42398,"start":22411,"end":22588},[42707,42709,42711,42713,42715],{"text":42708,"start":22411,"end":22425},"Ja, das ist eine saugute Frage.",{"text":42710,"start":22427,"end":22511},"Also wir haben dann, ich hatte ja erzählt, dass wir da so versucht hatten, über besseres UI uns aufm Markt zu positionieren als das enterprisefigere und und und userfreundlichere Alternative zu Redmine quasi.",{"text":42712,"start":22514,"end":22536},"Und das war genau das, was Du grade beschrieben hast.",{"text":42714,"start":22536,"end":22566},"Die Leute haben mal irgendwie erwartet, dass Du son Rich Frontend baust.",{"text":42716,"start":22566,"end":22588},"Das war so dieses Facebook Feeling, ne.",{"sentences":42718,"speaker":111,"num_words":42174,"start":22588,"end":22639},[42719,42721],{"text":42720,"start":22588,"end":22625},"Weißt Du, was Du das Facebook zum ersten Mal verwendet hast im Gegensatz zu StudiVZ?",{"text":42722,"start":22629,"end":22639},"Also es war irgendwie der",{"sentences":42724,"speaker":132,"num_words":42519,"start":22642,"end":22682},[42725,42726],{"text":22646,"start":22642,"end":22643},{"text":42727,"start":22643,"end":22682},"Muss man für die für die Jüngeren auch wieder StudiVZ erklären, weiß ich nicht.",{"sentences":42729,"speaker":111,"num_words":42524,"start":22684,"end":22703},[42730,42732],{"text":42731,"start":22684,"end":22694},"Oder Lokalisten, ja.",{"text":42733,"start":22697,"end":22703},"Das Oh,",{"sentences":42735,"speaker":132,"num_words":42740,"start":22703,"end":22757},[42736,42738],{"text":42737,"start":22703,"end":22724},"jetzt hören Sie mal, wer kennt wen?",{"text":42739,"start":22724,"end":22757},"So jetzt, jetzt holen wir mal die ganzen alten Netzwerke raus, ja.",19,{"sentences":42742,"speaker":111,"num_words":42752,"start":22759,"end":23082},[42743,42744,42746,42748,42750],{"text":5039,"start":22759,"end":22760},{"text":42745,"start":22763,"end":22858},"War auf einmal so eine Erwartung dahinter, dass Du halt auf Knopf drückst, dann dass sich die Caption sozusagen des Knopfes verändert und solche solche Niceskeiten, ja, dass ein Spinner aufm Knopf sich dreht und so was.",{"text":42747,"start":22860,"end":22914},"Genau, und da kam dann diese auf einmal diese von diesen großen Konzernen aufgebauten Frameworks Angela, JS und so.",{"text":42749,"start":22916,"end":22981},"Die haben wir dann eingesetzt und haben auch über das gehört ja, boah, Du musst hier dieses dieses Front and bauen Rails wird eigentlich zu sonem Art API Backend.",{"text":42751,"start":22985,"end":23082},"Haben wir gemacht, jahrelang probiert, haben's nie geschafft, zu 'ner Single Payage Application zu kommen, weil's Redman halt so krass groß schon war und Open Projekt damit auch groß war und man kann nicht mal eben irgendwie alles umbauen.",125,{"sentences":42754,"speaker":111,"num_words":41837,"start":23082,"end":23284},[42755,42757,42759,42761,42763],{"text":42756,"start":23082,"end":23102},"Man muss das API bauen, muss das Frontend bauen.",{"text":42758,"start":23105,"end":23169},"Ja, das ist aber eigentlich letzten Endes, der der der der was ist der, ja, der der Zustand 1 Anwendung wurde sehr, sehr unklar, ne?",{"text":42760,"start":23169,"end":23193},"Was ist was ist, welche Daten hast Du im Backend?",{"text":42762,"start":23193,"end":23208},"Welche hast Du im Frontend?",{"text":42764,"start":23212,"end":23284},"Führt eigentlich dazu, dass Du im Frontend die ganze Zeit irgendwie alle Daten sich jetzt sicherheitshalber nachlädst und aktualisierst, weil Du eigentlich nicht weißt, was im Frontend so los ist.",{"sentences":42766,"speaker":111,"num_words":42771,"start":23286,"end":23375},[42767,42769],{"text":42768,"start":23286,"end":23351},"Das Frontend Code war, obwohl wir da English as und dann Englishier und so weiter gemacht haben, wurde der irgendwie immer fieser, immer schlimmer.",{"text":42770,"start":23354,"end":23375},"Und der Vorteil und es wurd auch nicht schneller",33,{"sentences":42773,"speaker":132,"num_words":41421,"start":23377,"end":23430},[42774],{"text":42775,"start":23377,"end":23430},"Diese Zunge würden behaupten, das liegt vielleicht nicht an der Tatsache, obwohl ihr Angela benutzt habt, sondern weil ihr Angela benutzt habt.",{"sentences":42777,"speaker":111,"num_words":41491,"start":23433,"end":23586},[42778,42780,42782,42784,42786],{"text":42779,"start":23433,"end":23460},"Weiß ich nicht, wahrscheinlich gab's damals noch nicht und so was.",{"text":42781,"start":23460,"end":23479},"Vielleicht wäre das 'n bisschen dichter dran gewesen.",{"text":42783,"start":23482,"end":23499},"Ich will auch nicht zu doll drüber jaulen.",{"text":42785,"start":23499,"end":23539},"Wir haben damit, was wir dadurch bekommen haben, ist 'n extremst vielfältig einsetzbares API.",{"text":42787,"start":23542,"end":23586},"Ja, alles, was Du übers Frontend mit Arbeitspaket, was unsere machen kannst, das kannst Du übers API machen.",{"sentences":42789,"speaker":111,"num_words":42800,"start":23586,"end":23917},[42790,42792,42794,42796,42798],{"text":42791,"start":23586,"end":23703},"Du kannst sogar dir die das das Schema zu einem Formular, mit dem Du halt dein vollfrei konfiguriertes Arbeitspaket sozusagen aufbauen möchtest, weil die ganzen Felder, die Du in sonem Arbeitspaket tracken möchtest, kannst hast ja eigentlich deinen eigenen Customfilds und so was.",{"text":42793,"start":23705,"end":23748},"Dazu brauchst Du ja irgendwie 'n Schema und musst 'n Formular bauen können und das API gibt dir diese Informationen.",{"text":42795,"start":23752,"end":23779},"Was sind erlaubte Werte auf dem Feld, ja oder so was.",{"text":42797,"start":23781,"end":23854},"Wir haben extrem wichtiges API dadurch bekommen, aber wir hatten halt auch so was wie dann 'n Frontend Team und und das nicht von dem Team, das den ganzen Rest gemacht hat.",{"text":42799,"start":23857,"end":23917},"Irgendwie pragmatisch, wir waren aber auch immer noch Arbeiter, alle Admin Settings und so weiter, ganz klassisch, backend gerendert und so was.",128,{"sentences":42802,"speaker":111,"num_words":42108,"start":23919,"end":24164},[42803,42805,42807,42809,42811],{"text":42804,"start":23919,"end":24043},"Jedenfalls, da gab's dann immer dieses Ding, okay, Du brauchst 'n Backend brauchst Du eine gewisse Logik, Du brauchst im Frontend eine Logik, da musst Du das dafür, was sehr, sehr war, musstest Du dafür erst mal spezifizieren aus 2 Teams, die aufeinander irgendwie warten, sich blockieren und so weiter.",{"text":42806,"start":24043,"end":24050},"Es war ekelhaft.",{"text":42808,"start":24053,"end":24062},"Es hat keinen Spaß gemacht.",{"text":42810,"start":24062,"end":24138},"Also als jemand, der einfach etwas durchziehen möchte, dass ein ein Mensch Verantwortung hat, von vorne bis hinten ein Feature durch durchzuhauen, auch glücklich zu sein als Entwickler.",{"text":42812,"start":24142,"end":24164},"Also Selbstwirksamkeit ist ja kein kleines Ding für uns.",{"sentences":42814,"speaker":111,"num_words":42825,"start":24164,"end":24435},[42815,42817,42819,42821,42823],{"text":42816,"start":24164,"end":24245},"Also es, Du musst ja doch irgendwie auch fertig werden und dich drüber freuen, was Du gebaut hast und mit mit dieser dieser Aufteilung zwischen Front- und dem Backend Team, das war irgendwie frustrierend.",{"text":42818,"start":24248,"end":24263},"Das war nicht schön, hat keinen Spaß gemacht.",{"text":42820,"start":24265,"end":24354},"Und ja, und dann kam halt genau, was Du gesagt hast, Hotwire wieder und und bei uns spitzten sich die Ohren, weil es hat sich so angefühlt wie, oh, damit könnten wir wieder so bauen wie damals so.",{"text":42822,"start":24357,"end":24362},"2005, 2006.",{"text":42824,"start":24365,"end":24435},"Jeder, eine Entwickler kann wieder ein ein ein ein Feature von vorne bis hinten ohne entwickeln, auch Einfluss aufs Produkt selbst nehmen, auf die Architektur nehmen und gibt nicht so viel.",113,{"sentences":42827,"speaker":111,"num_words":42836,"start":24438,"end":24636},[42828,42830,42832,42834],{"text":42829,"start":24438,"end":24481},"Und auch der Softwarestack ist dann kleiner, sodass 'n Entwickler die noch lernen kann und aktualisieren kann.",{"text":42831,"start":24481,"end":24534},"Also wir sind sehr, sehr stolz darauf, dass unser Softwarestack mit Trades immer mitgewachsen ist, immer aktualisiert worden ist.",{"text":42833,"start":24536,"end":24613},"Dass wir an den Jams, die wir verwenden, also sind da so die, dass wir die halt auch mitpflegen, dass wir rein erstellen und so weiter, dass wir die mitentwickeln.",{"text":42835,"start":24617,"end":24636},"Das ist halt, das das kannst Du nicht so",75,{"sentences":42838,"speaker":132,"num_words":41592,"start":24638,"end":24872},[42839,42841,42843,42845,42847],{"text":42840,"start":24638,"end":24654},"Also ich versteh, was Du meinst.",{"text":42842,"start":24658,"end":24736},"Die die Die klassischen die klassischen Ruby Entwickler, die freuen sich natürlich, dass die jetzt wieder quasi von vorne bis hinten son son Feature ounen können und und und durchziehen können so, ja?",{"text":42844,"start":24736,"end":24803},"Und ich glaub auch, was Du gesagt hast, so diese diese Selbstwirksamkeit ist 'n super wichtiger Punkt, was so 'n Developer Experience und satisfaction irgendwie angeht, ja?",{"text":42846,"start":24803,"end":24869},"So jeder arbeitet lieber an 'nem Projekt, das er selber anfangen und abschließen kann, anstatt irgendwie nur son kleines Rädchen in soner großen Maschine zu sein, ne?",{"text":1858,"start":24871,"end":24872},{"sentences":42849,"speaker":132,"num_words":41965,"start":24872,"end":25100},[42850,42852,42854,42856,42858],{"text":42851,"start":24872,"end":24893},"Aber ihr hattet ja jetzt schon 'n Frontend Team.",{"text":42853,"start":24897,"end":24914},"Und was habt ihr denn mit dem gemacht?",{"text":42855,"start":24914,"end":24996},"Weil wenn Du jetzt, ne, von heut auf morgen da ankommst und sagst so, hey, diese Entwicklung oder diese diese Organisation getrennt, Frontend und Backend, das machen wir jetzt nicht mehr.",{"text":42857,"start":24998,"end":25045},"Und die die Ruby Leute, die eben noch das Backend gemacht haben, die können jetzt wieder von vorne bis hinten alles machen.",{"text":42859,"start":25047,"end":25100},"Du, lieber Angular Entwickler, also war das mehr so, da ist die Tür oder hier ist son dickes Buch, Ruby zu lernen?",{"sentences":42861,"speaker":132,"num_words":42637,"start":25100,"end":25126},[42862],{"text":42863,"start":25100,"end":25126},"Wie wie seid ihr da so organisatorisch mit den Leuten umgegangen?",{"sentences":42865,"speaker":111,"num_words":42411,"start":25129,"end":25328},[42866,42868,42870,42872,42874],{"text":42867,"start":25129,"end":25137},"Ja, ist ganz witzig.",{"text":42869,"start":25139,"end":25221},"Wir hatten gar nicht so ein großes Frontend Team und die Leute, die dort waren, das muss vielleicht auch noch mal Ich muss dann eine, ich hatte schon vorhin dieses Kulturthema angesprochen, ne?",{"text":42871,"start":25221,"end":25238},"Rails hat eine sehr homogene Kultur.",{"text":42873,"start":25241,"end":25284},"Und wenn Du dann halt 'n Frontend Team hast, was Angela macht und so weiter, das ist nicht so homogen.",{"text":42875,"start":25288,"end":25328},"Das und das passt auch nicht unbedingt so direkt auf das auf das auf die die Rails Kultur.",{"sentences":42877,"speaker":111,"num_words":42364,"start":25330,"end":25611},[42878,42880,42882,42884,42886],{"text":42879,"start":25330,"end":25360},"Das heißt, die waren auch immer son bisschen, wir waren immer mehrheitlich Rails Entwickler.",{"text":42881,"start":25362,"end":25397},"Die die waren auch son bisschen isolierter und da gab's dann auch manchmal son bisschen Kulturclash.",{"text":42883,"start":25401,"end":25422},"Nicht schlimm, wir kamen da irgendwie schon klar miteinander.",{"text":42885,"start":25424,"end":25467},"Aber eigentlich waren auch viele Entwickler dann so, dass sie dann halt auch mal Angela gelernt haben oder megafrustriert waren.",{"text":42887,"start":25467,"end":25611},"Und das heißt, als sie dann gesagt haben, wir stoppen jetzt die Weiterentwicklung von Angela Sachen, wir bauen investieren da nicht weiter, sondern wir bauen das eigentlich zurück und basierend auf den, oh, das ist das das Designsystems von GitHub Primer, ersetzen wir eigentlich diese Komponenten durch Standardkomponenten von ja, die auch bei GitHub eingesetzt wird.",{"sentences":42889,"speaker":111,"num_words":41910,"start":25611,"end":25770},[42890,42892,42894,42896,42898],{"text":42891,"start":25611,"end":25638},"Was für GitHub funktioniert, funktioniert für uns auch, war so die Idee, ne.",{"text":42893,"start":25641,"end":25665},"Und das das das hat nicht das hat nicht geknarscht.",{"text":42895,"start":25665,"end":25715},"Die Leute hatten Angst, das hatten schon Sorge, ob dann wie das wie sonen Schwenk eigentlich funktionieren kann.",{"text":42897,"start":25717,"end":25755},"Und da waren wir in sonem in in immer sone in der Schweiz gemietet.",{"text":42899,"start":25759,"end":25770},"Grüße gehen raus und ungleich.",{"sentences":42901,"speaker":111,"num_words":42912,"start":25773,"end":26011},[42902,42904,42906,42908,42910],{"text":42903,"start":25773,"end":25850},"Und dort konnten wir alle mal zusammenführen und alle 'n ganz lange Liste machen mit allen Zweifel und Sorgen, was passieren würde, wenn wir Angela stoppen würden und auf Hardware umsteigen.",{"text":42905,"start":25853,"end":25887},"Und dann sind wir die Liste haben wir aufgeschrieben und eine nach der anderen abgearbeitet.",{"text":42907,"start":25887,"end":25932},"Und als dann nur noch irgendwie 4 Prozent auch offen war, haben wir gesagt, let's go, wir machen das.",{"text":42909,"start":25934,"end":25946},"Und ja mega, mega.",{"text":42911,"start":25946,"end":26011},"Also die Leute, die vorher Frontend gemacht haben und Backend und so weiter, die freuen sich halt tierisch drüber, dass sie jetzt Frontend da halt in machen können.",97,{"sentences":42914,"speaker":111,"num_words":42919,"start":26014,"end":26143},[42915,42917],{"text":42916,"start":26014,"end":26135},"Komponenten bauen, Komponenten Framework von GitHub übernehmen mit Primer, schöne Komponenten bauen, die die die gut aussehen und die dann auch zum Teil dann wieder von GitHub übernommen worden sind, ja, weil die halt auch gesehen haben, dass wir da mit Engineering Standards halt arbeiten und das macht einfach Spaß, ja.",{"text":42918,"start":26135,"end":26143},"Das ist ja.",54,{"sentences":42921,"speaker":132,"num_words":42932,"start":26145,"end":26250},[42922,42924,42926,42928,42930],{"text":42923,"start":26145,"end":26195},"Wenn wir schon über Engineering Culture sprechen, Du hast grade das ein Offsite angesprochen, wo sone Entscheidung getroffen wurde.",{"text":42925,"start":26198,"end":26218},"Ihr seid 100 Prozent remote organisiert, ne?",{"text":42927,"start":26218,"end":26225},"Hab ich Ja.",{"text":42929,"start":26227,"end":26236},"Glaube ich, Genau.",{"text":42931,"start":26238,"end":26250},"Nur zwischen den Zeilen gelesen.",37,{"sentences":42934,"speaker":111,"num_words":41811,"start":26253,"end":26565},[42935,42937,42939,42941,42943],{"text":42936,"start":26253,"end":26287},"Ja, wir haben sone Briefkastenfirma in in sonem Co Working in Berlin.",{"text":42938,"start":26287,"end":26378},"Dort haben wir auch 'n Büro angemietet, wo ich glaub 2, 3 Leute sitzen, die in Berlin wohnen und manche können auch noch mal reinschneiden, aber ja, man braucht halt eine Adresse, ne.",{"text":42940,"start":26378,"end":26400},"Ansonsten sind wir über die ganze Welt verteilt.",{"text":42942,"start":26403,"end":26533},"Also ich ich bin in Spanien, haben Leute in Frankreich, England, Rumänien, Ukraine jetzt tatsächlich auch, weil wir die supporten stark, also ist, sind super Leute, aber halt auch, weil wir denken, dass es gut ist, wenn da Leute wenn wir dem was mitgeben können und die unterstützen können.",{"text":42944,"start":26535,"end":26565},"Und in Kenia, Nairobi, in Nepal arbeiten wir zusammen.",{"sentences":42946,"speaker":111,"num_words":41421,"start":26567,"end":26617},[42947],{"text":42948,"start":26567,"end":26617},"Also überall dort, wo sich Leute für das Thema, was wir bauen, nämlich Open Project interessieren Und ob wir's draus machen wollen.",{"sentences":42950,"speaker":132,"num_words":41531,"start":26619,"end":26751},[42951,42953,42955],{"text":42952,"start":26619,"end":26649},"Ich stell mir das am schwierigsten für diese eine Person in Nepal vor.",{"text":42954,"start":26649,"end":26723},"Als jemand, der auch schon mal in 'nem sehr verteilten Team gearbeitet hat, ist ja, also ne, örtliche Distribution ist das eine, Zeitzonendistribution ist noch mal so das andere.",{"text":42956,"start":26726,"end":26751},"Wie oder ist es ist das eine Challenge für euch?",{"sentences":42958,"speaker":111,"num_words":42014,"start":26754,"end":26974},[42959,42961,42963,42965,42967],{"text":42960,"start":26754,"end":26835},"Ja, muss dazu sagen, dass das Team in Nepal, das ist ein, sind nicht direkt wir, das ist ein Unternehmen, mit dem wir zusammenarbeiten und die machen für uns die Nextcloud Integration.",{"text":42962,"start":26839,"end":26860},"Also die App dazu, die bei NextInextcloud läuft.",{"text":42964,"start":26860,"end":26875},"PHP Code ist nicht unser Gebiet.",{"text":42966,"start":26879,"end":26959},"Und da haben wir dann eher son, ja, son son son son Supplier Verhältnis, wobei wir mit denen schon so lange zusammenarbeiten, dass das irgendwie man nicht mehr so richtig fühlt, ne.",{"text":42968,"start":26959,"end":26974},"Das die gehören schon irgendwie dazu.",{"sentences":42970,"speaker":111,"num_words":41778,"start":26976,"end":27068},[42971,42972,42974],{"text":19667,"start":26976,"end":26977},{"text":42973,"start":26977,"end":27034},"Genau und das ist 'n Problem natürlich, aber weil die halt sowieso unabhängig aufgestellt sind, ist an der Stelle nicht ganz so schlimm.",{"text":42975,"start":27034,"end":27068},"Aber wir müssen schon unsere Termine jetzt sehr, sehr früh am Morgen machen, ja.",{"sentences":42977,"speaker":132,"num_words":42656,"start":27070,"end":27201},[42978,42980,42982,42983],{"text":42979,"start":27070,"end":27138},"Ja, also ich ich war mal in 'nem Team, wo wir aufgeteilt waren zwischen Deutschland, Irland, der amerikanischen Ostküste, der amerikanischen Westküste und Australien Boah.",{"text":42981,"start":27141,"end":27176},"Und quasi irgendjemand eigentlich immer lieber geschlafen hätte, anstatt in irgendwelchen Meetings zu setzen.",{"text":1858,"start":27180,"end":27181},{"text":42984,"start":27181,"end":27201},"Egal, zu welcher Uhrzeit man das macht.",{"sentences":42986,"speaker":111,"num_words":42932,"start":27203,"end":27302},[42987,42989,42991,42993,42995],{"text":42988,"start":27203,"end":27225},"Ja, da gibt's auch unterschiedliche Kulturen, ne.",{"text":42990,"start":27225,"end":27250},"Da gibt's Leute, die sind so voll auf Digital Nomad Kultur.",{"text":42992,"start":27252,"end":27285},"Kultur, wo es dann eigentlich heißt, alle Kommunikation muss asynchron sein, irgendwie textbasiert.",{"text":42994,"start":27289,"end":27298},"Das haben wir nicht, ne.",{"text":1614,"start":27298,"end":27302},{"sentences":42997,"speaker":132,"num_words":696,"start":27304,"end":27462},[42998,43000,43002],{"text":42999,"start":27304,"end":27319},"Nee, wir hatten das damals auch nicht.",{"text":43001,"start":27319,"end":27443},"So, wir haben schon versucht, viel auch synchron zu machen und hatten dann das Glück, dass zum Beispiel ich hier in Deutschland eine Nuteule bin und unser Kollege in Australien superfrüh aufgestanden ist, weil er gerne noch surfen gehen wollen würde, bevor er dann richtig mitm Arbeiten anfängt.",{"text":43003,"start":27443,"end":27462},"Also es war richtig klischeemäßig, ja?",{"sentences":43005,"speaker":111,"num_words":41549,"start":27462,"end":27468},[43006,43007],{"text":1858,"start":27462,"end":27464},{"text":1133,"start":27467,"end":27468},{"sentences":43009,"speaker":132,"num_words":41372,"start":27468,"end":27607},[43010,43012,43014],{"text":43011,"start":27468,"end":27500},"dann haben wir halt immer sonen guten Slot gefunden, der für alle irgendwie passt.",{"text":43013,"start":27503,"end":27530},"Aber das hat schon auch sone gewisse Latenz halt eingeführt, ne?",{"text":43015,"start":27530,"end":27607},"Weil Du machst 'n Purry Quest und bis der vielleicht mal bei der richtigen Person irgendwie hochgekommen ist, da gehen halt mal so 24 Stunden, rotieren sozusagen einmal einmal durch.",{"sentences":43017,"speaker":111,"num_words":41681,"start":27609,"end":27828},[43018,43019,43021,43023,43025],{"text":5039,"start":27609,"end":27610},{"text":43020,"start":27610,"end":27664},"Und dann machst Du dann eine Veränderung, irgendwie kommt dein Review zurück und dann dauert's wieder 24 Stunden und so weiter.",{"text":43022,"start":27664,"end":27695},"Und das ist son son Rhythmus, der macht einfach nicht so viel Spaß, ne.",{"text":43024,"start":27695,"end":27746},"Es ist das ist frustrierend, wenn Du einfach 'n kleines Ding reinbekommen möchtest in den Chor und dann dauert das irgendwie lange.",{"text":43026,"start":27746,"end":27828},"Also es, Wir versuchen da schon Möglichkeiten zu haben, drück auf den Knopf, da rufst Du an und dann machst Du kurz eine Besprechung per Programming, was auch immer Du grade brauchst.",{"sentences":43028,"speaker":132,"num_words":41453,"start":27831,"end":27928},[43029,43031],{"text":43030,"start":27831,"end":27898},"Und diese gemeinsamen Offsides, ist das son Werkzeug, das ihr häufiger nutzt oder war das jetzt sone Ausnahmesituation, weil ihr eben kritische Entscheidungen treffen wolltet?",{"text":43032,"start":27901,"end":27928},"Wie wie versucht ihr so dieses Remote Thema son bisschen anzugehen?",{"sentences":43034,"speaker":111,"num_words":41453,"start":27931,"end":28011},[43035],{"text":43036,"start":27931,"end":28011},"Ja, das ist ganz witzig, weil wenn wir jetzt so remote sind, Du siehst ja immer nur dieses dieses Rechteck von jemandem, ne, und weiß gar nicht, ob der Mensch eine Hose an hat oder nicht.",{"sentences":43038,"speaker":132,"num_words":42704,"start":28013,"end":28252},[43039,43041,43043,43045],{"text":43040,"start":28013,"end":28070},"Du weißt auch, also ich fand das damals bei Shopify so krass, wenn ich dann Leute das erste Mal in echt getroffen hab, so Größe.",{"text":43042,"start":28070,"end":28095},"Größe ist son Thema, das kann man unglaublich falsch einschätzen.",{"text":43044,"start":28098,"end":28160},"Und dann stand ich das erste Mal vor 'nem Kollegen, mit dem ich schon, weiß ich nicht, Dutzende Male hunderte Stunden verbracht hab so, ja?",{"text":43046,"start":28162,"end":28252},"Und er ist 3 Köpfe kleiner, also ich denk mir so, ich hätte dich niemals erkannt, wenn Du mir auf der Straße begegnet wärst und ich hätte nicht wüsste, dass dass das Du bist, so, ne.",{"sentences":43048,"speaker":111,"num_words":43059,"start":28255,"end":28514},[43049,43051,43053,43055,43057],{"text":43050,"start":28255,"end":28290},"Vielleicht hätte ich ja oder weniger ernst genommen, wenn ich vielleicht das Tor gewusst.",{"text":43052,"start":28290,"end":28315},"Na ja, so nee nee, ist schon echt witzig.",{"text":43054,"start":28315,"end":28324},"Also genau das passiert.",{"text":43056,"start":28324,"end":28444},"Also wenn man das einmal im Jahr holen wir die ganze Firma zusammen, dann machen wir wirklich so 3 Tage lang kein Programm, außer halt so Teambuilding Programms segeln gehen und Geocaching und Spiele spielen und alles Mögliche, also wirklich explizit einfach nur gemeinsam abhängen.",{"text":43058,"start":28447,"end":28514},"Und das ist schon sehr, sehr interessant, wenn Du zum ersten Mal halt wirklich die Menschen dann vor dir hast, die dann im letzten Jahr eingestellt worden sind oder so was, ja.",104,{"sentences":43061,"speaker":111,"num_words":41656,"start":28514,"end":28736},[43062,43064,43066,43068,43070],{"text":43063,"start":28514,"end":28527},"Das das unglaublich wichtig, ne.",{"text":43065,"start":28527,"end":28581},"Da da da zehrt die Organisation sehr erfahren, dort gemeinsam halt eher gespielt und gelacht und gealbert zu haben, ja.",{"text":43067,"start":28583,"end":28591},"Ist ja, sehr wichtig.",{"text":43069,"start":28591,"end":28648},"Da kommen die aus aus aus aus den USA, aus aus damals auch Panama und von über räumen wir die Leute her.",{"text":43071,"start":28651,"end":28736},"Das ist eine und das andere, was wir halt auch merken, ist, wenn Du son bisschen kompliziertere Sachen hast, wenn wir halt einen Hackathon haben oder so was, ne, das das setzt immer ganz eine Energien frei.",{"sentences":43073,"speaker":111,"num_words":41618,"start":28739,"end":28989},[43074,43076,43078],{"text":43075,"start":28739,"end":28888},"Wenn wir Menschen zusammenführen, unterschiedliche Disziplinen zusammenbringen, halt kürzester Zeit, was weiß ich, für die französische Regierung eine Integration zu bauen mit dem deutschen Open Desk, das Open Desk und dem französischen, LaSuuite im Hackathon, dann dann spürst Du da auch eine ganz andere Energie, als wenn Du immer nur Ribbonhood arbeitest.",{"text":43077,"start":28888,"end":28951},"Also diese Energie, davon zehren dann auch die die Beziehungen und das Vertrauen und aber auch der Stress, den man gemeinsam so durchlebt.",{"text":43079,"start":28954,"end":28989},"Das Vertrauen, wir schaffen das gemeinsam, das ist unglaublich wichtig, solche Momente zu haben.",{"sentences":43081,"speaker":132,"num_words":41440,"start":28991,"end":29064},[43082,43084],{"text":43083,"start":28991,"end":29054},"Wie oft im Jahr macht ihr, also hast Du schon gesagt, ne, so Offsite macht ihr Eimer und diese Hackathons, so an größeren Sachen zu arbeiten.",{"text":43085,"start":29054,"end":29064},"Wie oft passiert so was?",{"sentences":43087,"speaker":111,"num_words":42278,"start":29067,"end":29187},[43088,43090,43092],{"text":43089,"start":29067,"end":29080},"Ja, noch nicht oft genug da tatsächlich.",{"text":43091,"start":29084,"end":29181},"Also abgesehen von diesem einen offsite haben wir noch so Sachen gemacht, das nennen wir Passion Time, also ein bis 2 Wochen lang darf jeder an den Dingen arbeiten, die sie für, weiß ich nicht, für sie Passion haben, ja.",{"text":43093,"start":29184,"end":29187},"Und dann",{"sentences":43095,"speaker":132,"num_words":43098,"start":29190,"end":29211},[43096],{"text":43097,"start":29190,"end":29211},"Abseits von eurem Projekt auch oder an eurem Projekt?",9,{"sentences":43100,"speaker":111,"num_words":43104,"start":29214,"end":29249},[43101,43103],{"text":43102,"start":29214,"end":29245},"Schon an unserem Projekt, aber halt abseits der offiziellen Roadmap, ne.",{"text":19667,"start":29248,"end":29249},12,{"sentences":43106,"speaker":132,"num_words":111,"start":29249,"end":29251},[43107],{"text":6264,"start":29249,"end":29251},{"sentences":43109,"speaker":111,"num_words":41618,"start":29253,"end":29487},[43110,43112,43114,43116,43118],{"text":43111,"start":29253,"end":29291},"Und da passieren coole Sachen, was weiß ich, wir Comanlein Toolkonto die Ecke.",{"text":43113,"start":29291,"end":29351},"Es kommt auf einmal irgend einen Back up Feature, was uns auf DevOps Leute die ganze Zeit haben folgten, was so noch nicht gab.",{"text":43115,"start":29354,"end":29375},"Notification Center bei uns ist da da geboren.",{"text":43117,"start":29378,"end":29441},"War man jetzt hier einfach dann auch mal Europe, die man sonst bestimmt nicht hat, ja, pausen kann, mal durchatmen und einfach mal neu denken, ja.",{"text":43119,"start":29441,"end":29487},"Es gibt auch so Themen, die sind schwierig und deswegen schaffen sie's nicht so leicht auf die Roadmap.",{"sentences":43121,"speaker":111,"num_words":41579,"start":29491,"end":29698},[43122,43124,43126,43128,43130],{"text":43123,"start":29491,"end":29546},"Man muss sie einfach mal knacken und dafür braucht man halt Menschen, die in unterschiedlichen Projekten eigentlich ja, nicht gefangen, aber ne.",{"text":43125,"start":29549,"end":29591},"Also verplant sind, die braucht man halt mal dafür, so schwierige Sachen in der Architektur zu knacken.",{"text":43127,"start":29594,"end":29635},"Und wenn Du dann wirklich mal so ein bis 2 Wochen Zeit dafür hast, dann schaffst Du ziemlich viel.",{"text":43129,"start":29637,"end":29694},"Und das macht man dann auch auch dann zum zum Teil dann halt auch ja, vor Ort, ne, damit wo man sich dann trifft.",{"text":29699,"start":29697,"end":29698},{"sentences":43132,"speaker":111,"num_words":696,"start":29701,"end":29854},[43133,43135,43137],{"text":43134,"start":29701,"end":29779},"Das ist aber so ein ein, zweimal, also insgesamt trifft man sich so ein, 2, dreimal, je nachdem, was für eine Rolle Du im im im in der Firma hast.",{"text":43136,"start":29781,"end":29835},"Ich treff viel mehr Leute als in meiner Rolle als andere, aber wir versuchen, dass die Menschen sich schon sehen zwei-, dreimal im Jahr.",{"text":43138,"start":29838,"end":29854},"Und die sind, die wollen das auch.",{"sentences":43140,"speaker":132,"num_words":42348,"start":29856,"end":29894},[43141,43143,43145],{"text":43142,"start":29856,"end":29863},"Ja, versteh ich.",{"text":43144,"start":29865,"end":29890},"Du hast eben schon gesagt, dass Du in Spanien sitzt.",{"text":6264,"start":29893,"end":29894},{"sentences":43147,"speaker":111,"num_words":41549,"start":29896,"end":29900},[43148],{"text":43149,"start":29896,"end":29900},"Das ist",{"sentences":43151,"speaker":132,"num_words":41544,"start":29900,"end":29941},[43152,43154],{"text":43153,"start":29900,"end":29921},"ja vielleicht auch noch mal son ganz interessanter Schwenk.",{"text":43155,"start":29924,"end":29941},"Wie und warum bist Du nach Spanien gekommen?",{"sentences":43157,"speaker":111,"num_words":43168,"start":29943,"end":30141},[43158,43160,43162,43164,43166],{"text":43159,"start":29943,"end":29961},"Ja, also meine Frau ist aus Spanien.",{"text":43161,"start":29961,"end":30017},"Ich hab sie kennengelernt, weil mein Mitbewohner in Berlin, der hatte Erasmus in Finnland gemacht und hat sie dort kennengelernt.",{"text":43163,"start":30017,"end":30077},"Dann haben wir seinen Geburtstag in Barcelona gefeiert und sie kam dann mal eben aus Mallorca rüber und haben uns kennengelernt.",{"text":43165,"start":30079,"end":30094},"Und dann hatten wir eine lange Fernbeziehung.",{"text":43167,"start":30094,"end":30141},"Sie kam dann nach nach Berlin und irgendwann haben wir gesagt, och, wir können doch auch nach Mallorca gehen.",74,{"sentences":43170,"speaker":111,"num_words":41518,"start":30144,"end":30320},[43171,43173,43175,43177],{"text":43172,"start":30144,"end":30188},"Und das war zu der Zeit, wo's in Mallorca, da wurde grade der erste Co Coworking Center gegründet, ne.",{"text":43174,"start":30188,"end":30253},"Und das da gab's noch keine Thai Restaurants, da gab's noch keine Burgerläden, da gab's noch keine Hipster Cafés auf auf in Palma, ja.",{"text":43176,"start":30253,"end":30277},"Da gab's doch, da wurden grade Fahrradwege gebaut.",{"text":43178,"start":30279,"end":30320},"Und genau und das das war mein Weg nach nach Spanien, weil wir halt auch schon remote arbeiten konnten.",{"sentences":43180,"speaker":132,"num_words":43187,"start":30323,"end":30474},[43181,43183,43185],{"text":43182,"start":30323,"end":30339},"Das wär jetzt nämlich meine Frage gewesen so.",{"text":43184,"start":30339,"end":30452},"Also in Spanien oder auf Mallorca zu sein, wenn da gerade die Infrastruktur entsteht, ist ja das eine, aber trotzdem bedingt es ja quasi einen Job hier in Deutschland, den Du quasi mitnehmen kannst oder eine Firma, für die das halt auch irgendwie wie wie funktioniert.",{"text":43186,"start":30452,"end":30474},"Und Du hast, ihr wart da aber schon remote?",63,{"sentences":43189,"speaker":111,"num_words":43168,"start":30477,"end":30648},[43190,43192,43194,43196,43198],{"text":43191,"start":30477,"end":30509},"Nee, eigentlich noch nicht, aber ich hab das son bisschen so als Speerspitze gemacht.",{"text":43193,"start":30509,"end":30572},"Ich hab sogar auch Leute aus Berlin, da hab ich denen das Angebot gemacht, ey so, kommt kommt doch doch mal vorbei nach Mallorca, arbeiten wir hier zusammen.",{"text":43195,"start":30574,"end":30584},"Das haben auch Leute angenommen.",{"text":43197,"start":30587,"end":30636},"Da war so irgendwie ja, der der der Spaß, dass man halt in Flip Flops zur Arbeit geht und so was, ne.",{"text":43199,"start":30636,"end":30648},"Das so diese diese Vorstellung.",{"sentences":43201,"speaker":111,"num_words":41398,"start":30651,"end":30835},[43202,43204,43206,43208,43210],{"text":43203,"start":30651,"end":30675},"Aber letzten Endes hat das gar nicht so sehr gezogen, ne.",{"text":43205,"start":30675,"end":30716},"Die Menschen wollen eigentlich dort sitzen, wo sie sich wohlfühlen, wo ihre Familien sind in der Regel.",{"text":43207,"start":30719,"end":30749},"Und Spanien als Ort zum Arbeiten hat sich gar nicht so durchgesetzt so.",{"text":43209,"start":30749,"end":30808},"Jetzt jetzt so langsam kommen werden mehr Leute aus der Firma und wollen mal halt auch mal das Ausland ausprobieren und gehen dann halt nach Spanien.",{"text":43211,"start":30810,"end":30835},"Deswegen hab ich auch eine spanische Gesellschaft gegründet unter Subgesellschaft.",{"sentences":43213,"speaker":111,"num_words":41939,"start":30839,"end":30939},[43214,43216],{"text":43215,"start":30839,"end":30916},"Aber es ist jetzt nicht son Ding, ja, man könnte erwarten irgendwie so Sonnenschein und so weiter, das ist son Strand, das das Leute mehr nutzen würden, aber ist gar nicht so.",{"text":43217,"start":30916,"end":30939},"Die Leute wollen ihre Familien und ihr ihr Umgebung haben.",{"sentences":43219,"speaker":132,"num_words":42265,"start":30941,"end":30972},[43220],{"text":43221,"start":30941,"end":30972},"Und wenn Du wenn Du vor den ganzen Hipstern in Spanien angekommen bist,",{"sentences":43223,"speaker":111,"num_words":43098,"start":30975,"end":31001},[43224],{"text":43225,"start":30975,"end":31001},"War der erste Hipster, keine Ahnung, der Ufer Hipster.",{"sentences":43227,"speaker":132,"num_words":41631,"start":31005,"end":31287},[43228,43230,43232,43234],{"text":43229,"start":31005,"end":31054},"Dann hast Du ja sicherlich noch eine ganz anderes Ökosystem, eine ganz andere Community vorgefunden, wie es jetzt ist.",{"text":43231,"start":31054,"end":31127},"Ja, also wenn man heute an an Mallorca denkt, dann denkt man auch an Demonstrationen und zu viel Tourismus und Gentrifizierung für die Einheimischen und sowas.",{"text":43233,"start":31130,"end":31143},"Wie wie hast Du das mitbekommen?",{"text":43235,"start":31146,"end":31287},"Ist das was, was sich wirklich eher so dem dem Tourismus gegenüber entlädt oder bekommt man das so als, ich will nicht sagen digitaler Nomade, aber Du bist jetzt schon lang genug da, ne, aber als quasi jemand, der auf Mallorca wohnt, aber quasi international arbeitet, kriegt man das auch son bisschen mit oder gar ab?",{"sentences":43237,"speaker":111,"num_words":42512,"start":31290,"end":31407},[43238,43239,43241,43243,43245],{"text":6264,"start":31290,"end":31291},{"text":43240,"start":31291,"end":31315},"Da soll ich das wie soll ich das sagen?",{"text":43242,"start":31318,"end":31327},"Also erst mal nein.",{"text":43244,"start":31330,"end":31349},"Erst mal kurz, dass ich würd sagen nein.",{"text":43246,"start":31349,"end":31407},"Das das das gilt natürlich in den deutschen Medien, weil Mallorca so als siebzehntes Bundesland irgendwie immer so getiteliert wird, irgendwie wichtig ist.",{"sentences":43248,"speaker":111,"num_words":41466,"start":31407,"end":31556},[43249,43251,43253,43255,43257],{"text":43250,"start":31407,"end":31435},"In den Medien wird das 'n bisschen höher gepusht als es ist.",{"text":43252,"start":31435,"end":31444},"Es gibt's aber, ja.",{"text":43254,"start":31444,"end":31458},"Und es gibt auch 'n Grund.",{"text":43256,"start":31458,"end":31534},"Also es ist, Mallorca hat seit den Fünfzehn- und Sechzigerjahren hat's 'n Tourismusboom und das ist die die das Epizentrum für eigentlich alle großen Tourismusunternehmen der Welt, ne.",{"text":43258,"start":31534,"end":31556},"Die Karibik wurde zugepflastert von Unternehmen aus Mallorca.",{"sentences":43260,"speaker":111,"num_words":42108,"start":31560,"end":31804},[43261,43263,43265,43267,43269],{"text":43262,"start":31560,"end":31661},"Und hier sind große Tech Techunternehmen, die halt im im im Travel, im im Hospitality Fluggesellschaften, die haben oftmals ihre, heißt das auf Spanisch, Haupt Hauptsitz haben sie hier in in in in auf Mallorca.",{"text":43264,"start":31663,"end":31729},"Das heißt, es gibt eine eine eine große Industrie und das Tourismus und die Menschen sind's gewohnt, dass Leute aus allen Herren, Ländern, gerade Deutschland nach Mallorca kommen.",{"text":43266,"start":31729,"end":31770},"Die Deutschen glauben halt oftmals, die Leute werden alle Deutsch sprechen, aber ist halt nicht so.",{"text":43268,"start":31770,"end":31783},"Du bist hier mitten in Spanien.",{"text":43270,"start":31783,"end":31804},"Das ist, Du bist in Spanien, hier gibt's bei ja.",{"sentences":43272,"speaker":111,"num_words":41824,"start":31804,"end":31946},[43273,43275,43277,43279,43281],{"text":43274,"start":31804,"end":31855},"Hier gibt's mallyequinisches Essen und es gibt vor allem die mallyequinische Sprache und das wissen viele Leute auch nicht, ja.",{"text":43276,"start":31857,"end":31866},"Das ist 'n wichtiges Ding.",{"text":43278,"start":31869,"end":31899},"Katalanen, mit ja, die eigenen Dialekten auch paar eigenen Wörtern.",{"text":43280,"start":31902,"end":31922},"Es gibt eine eigene mallokinische Kultur und richtig.",{"text":43282,"start":31922,"end":31946},"Also das ist, das heißt, es gibt jede Menge Industrie.",{"sentences":43284,"speaker":111,"num_words":42607,"start":31946,"end":32115},[43285,43287,43289,43291,43293],{"text":43286,"start":31946,"end":31971},"Es gibt hier, Palma ist eine kleine Großstadt, ja.",{"text":43288,"start":31971,"end":32019},"Da gibt's 'n Metro, da gibt es alles Mögliche, was man sich vorstellen kann, auch son bisschen gechillter, ne.",{"text":43290,"start":32019,"end":32041},"Son Regierungssitz hier für die für die Autonomie.",{"text":43292,"start":32044,"end":32103},"Was es halt nicht so klar gab damals, dass so was man schon aus Berlin son bisschen dann zu dem Zeitpunkt dann losging, diese ganze Start-up.",{"text":43294,"start":32107,"end":32115},"Wie soll man's sagen?",{"sentences":43296,"speaker":111,"num_words":42037,"start":32115,"end":32320},[43297,43299,43301,43303,43305],{"text":43298,"start":32115,"end":32161},"Son Lifestyle oder halt auch dieses dieses Verständnis davon, das war nicht so gegeben, obwohl halt Unternehmen gegründet.",{"text":43300,"start":32164,"end":32199},"Ich war der erste erste Mieter im ersten Co Working Center, ja, ja, so.",{"text":43302,"start":32201,"end":32257},"Und hab dann denen Leuten auch geholfen, dann das Co Working Center so zum Erfolg zu bringen, weil sie etwas auch nicht wussten, ne.",{"text":43304,"start":32257,"end":32267},"Die hat uns ausprobiert.",{"text":43306,"start":32270,"end":32320},"Und genau und dann, weil's einfach so gefehlt hat, dann gab's eine Tech Community, da waren 4 Leute, die haben das angefangen.",{"sentences":43308,"speaker":111,"num_words":42582,"start":32320,"end":32591},[43309,43311,43313,43315,43317],{"text":43310,"start":32320,"end":32421},"Ich war dann irgendwie dann der Fünfte dann da drin und dann wurd's dann immer größer, sodass wir dann, das hieß dann Beta Beers, wo wir halt eben gegenseitig sonst irgendwie Sachen erzählt haben, die wir cool finden als Nerds.",{"text":43312,"start":32425,"end":32448},"Und dann wurde es immer größer und die Themen wurden bereit.",{"text":43314,"start":32448,"end":32529},"Da gab's auch bei meinem Mallorca JS und ich hab dann irgendwann auch Mallorca Start ups mitgegründet mit meinen guten Freunden und haben dann versucht, irgend sone Art Start up Community aufzubauen.",{"text":43316,"start":32531,"end":32575},"Das waren dann irgendwie so Meetups und so von irgendwie 1200 Leute sich dann irgendwie subscribend haben.",{"text":43318,"start":32577,"end":32591},"Also da da passierte schon etwas.",{"sentences":43320,"speaker":111,"num_words":41491,"start":32594,"end":32738},[43321,43323],{"text":43322,"start":32594,"end":32667},"Letzten Endes hat's mein Interesse halt gar nicht so, ja, ich weiß nicht, das ist zwar nicht mehr son Funding und so was, das verfolg ich gar nicht mehr, ne.",{"text":43324,"start":32667,"end":32738},"Also bei Open Protect, die sind geboostrapt und haben kein Funding und deswegen, ich find dieses ganze Start up Spiel letzten Endes gar nicht mehr so interessant und spannend.",{"sentences":43326,"speaker":132,"num_words":42932,"start":32740,"end":32832},[43327,43329,43331],{"text":43328,"start":32740,"end":32783},"Und ist diese Szene trotzdem noch was, was passiert oder hat sich das mittlerweile auch son bisschen abgeebbt?",{"text":43330,"start":32787,"end":32801},"Also Du bist ja nicht deswegen dahin.",{"text":43332,"start":32801,"end":32832},"Du hast es ja quasi nur organisch beobachtet und mitbekommen oder so.",{"sentences":43334,"speaker":111,"num_words":41544,"start":32834,"end":32879},[43335],{"text":43336,"start":32834,"end":32879},"Ja, von mitgemacht, ne, weil ich Bock drauf hatte, Leute zu treffen, die irgendwie nicht tickten, ne.",{"sentences":43338,"speaker":132,"num_words":42278,"start":32882,"end":33001},[43339,43340,43342,43344],{"text":1858,"start":32882,"end":32883},{"text":43341,"start":32886,"end":32944},"Aber wenn ich jetzt heute quasi frisch dazustoßen würde, ich sag jetzt hier, oh hier, dieses Bayern, das ist mir viel zu kalt, ja.",{"text":43343,"start":32944,"end":32984},"Ich will jetzt irgendwie auch nach nach Spanien und der W-Land hat gesagt, so, Palma ist cool.",{"text":43345,"start":32986,"end":33001},"Was was würde mich da erwarten heute?",{"sentences":43347,"speaker":111,"num_words":42489,"start":33004,"end":33191},[43348,43350,43352,43354,43356],{"text":43349,"start":33004,"end":33042},"Aber ich glaube, da fragst Du tatsächlich den Falschen, weil ich mir halt so zurückgezogen habe.",{"text":43351,"start":33042,"end":33099},"Ich bin den ganzen Tag irgendwie 8 Stunden in Videokonferenzen und ich hab mein mein meinen sozialen Austausch mit der Rest der Welt.",{"text":43353,"start":33102,"end":33113},"Bin gar nicht so am Laufen.",{"text":43355,"start":33113,"end":33175},"Ich weiß, dass die dieselben Akteure wie damals es immer wieder noch noch mal neu probieren, irgendwie Business Angels Club und so weiter.",{"text":43357,"start":33175,"end":33191},"Es gibt natürlich jede Menge Co Working Center.",{"sentences":43359,"speaker":111,"num_words":43370,"start":33194,"end":33495},[43360,43362,43364,43366,43368],{"text":43361,"start":33194,"end":33339},"Ich würde vermuten, dass Du da schnell in Kontakt kommst mit Leuten, aber keine Ahnung, ich treff jetzt eigentlich die spannenden Kontakte eher beim Sport, beim Laufen, beim Krafttraining und so was, die dann einfach hier direkt nebenan irgendwie in Straße weiterwohnen und irgendwie krasses AI Zeug machen mit 'nem 1 in Architekturbranche oder so was.",{"text":43363,"start":33339,"end":33381},"Und dann aufm Spielplatz mit Kindern und so weiter haben wir dann halt unsere Unterhaltungen dazu.",{"text":43365,"start":33381,"end":33448},"Wo muss wissen, ob welcher Teil der Insel man sich sozusagen dann niederlässt, wo man halt Leute dann, ich sagt man, in der Sauna trifft oder so.",{"text":43367,"start":33450,"end":33462},"Aber Du kommst superschnell in Kontakt.",{"text":43369,"start":33462,"end":33495},"Also das ist sehr, sehr easy, dass Du da auf deine Kosten kommst.",118,{"sentences":43372,"speaker":111,"num_words":43377,"start":33499,"end":33539},[43373,43375],{"text":43374,"start":33499,"end":33517},"Willst Du das Berliner Start up Leben haben?",{"text":43376,"start":33517,"end":33539},"Ja, dann bist Du ja vielleicht nicht ganz richtig, ja.",18,{"sentences":43379,"speaker":132,"num_words":43187,"start":33541,"end":33692},[43380,43381,43383,43384,43386],{"text":29699,"start":33541,"end":33542},{"text":43382,"start":33542,"end":33571},"Ich glaub, das Berliner Start up Leben brauch ich auch gar nicht so.",{"text":19667,"start":33574,"end":33575},{"text":43385,"start":33577,"end":33604},"Dann vielleicht 2 Fragen, die ich immer zum Schluss stelle.",{"text":43387,"start":33604,"end":33692},"Die erste Frage ist, wenn Du deinem sehr viel jüngeren Ich das grade erst anfängt und vielleicht grade an der Uni den ersten Job wieder geschmissen hat, einen einen wichtigen Rat geben könntest, was würdest Du ihm mitgeben?",{"sentences":43389,"speaker":111,"num_words":43059,"start":33695,"end":33956},[43390,43392,43394,43396,43398],{"text":43391,"start":33695,"end":33841},"Ich glaub, also das einerseits ist der Riecher für dafür, dass das Wichtigste ist, dass dass Du eine Sprache in deinem Team auf baust geteilt wird, also dass dass man sich versteht, dass ich halt am Anfang des Studiums schon hatte, dass man das nicht ausm Auge verliert, weil darin ist die Kraft vom vom Teamwork drin.",{"text":43393,"start":33844,"end":33855},"Das würd ich den Leuten sagen.",{"text":43395,"start":33855,"end":33890},"Ich würde auch sagen, Teamwork ist immer viel, viel cooler als alleine zu arbeiten.",{"text":43397,"start":33892,"end":33942},"Ich hab das auch mal eine Zeit lang gemacht, hab leider gearbeitet, da lernt man viel, aber hat eine ganz andere Power.",{"text":43399,"start":33946,"end":33956},"Man ist einfach viel befriedigender.",{"sentences":43401,"speaker":111,"num_words":43412,"start":33961,"end":34273},[43402,43404,43406,43408,43410],{"text":43403,"start":33961,"end":34018},"Ego hinten anstellen und sich aufs Ziel fokussieren und auch Bedürfnisse anderer ernster nehmen und nicht nur seinen Kopf durchsetzen.",{"text":43405,"start":34021,"end":34087},"Ich glaub, das wäre wichtig, dass dass dass man halt auch mal agree to to disagree, dass es als Team wichtiger ist, als nur sein eigenes Ding durchzuziehen.",{"text":43407,"start":34090,"end":34133},"Dass es 'n Wert hat, gemeinsam an etwas dranzubleiben, auch wenn man nicht immer der derselben Meinung ist.",{"text":43409,"start":34135,"end":34183},"Das ist ja, wenn man sein Ego bisschen im Check hat, sich mal hinterfragt, ist das das ist gut.",{"text":43411,"start":34183,"end":34273},"Also ich hab Respekt vor Leuten, die Kehrtwindung machen können, die Meinungen ändern können, ja, die das einfach auch mal hinnehmen können, dass man anderer Meinung ist und im Team hast Du's immer, Grade bei Korrekturen, ja.",122,{"sentences":43414,"speaker":132,"num_words":43421,"start":34275,"end":34403},[43415,43417,43419],{"text":43416,"start":34275,"end":34358},"Was ist die eine Frage, die ich dich noch nicht gefragt hab, wo Du dich, weiß ich nicht, super vorbereitet hast oder unbedingt gerne drüber sprechen wolltest und jetzt dachte ich, oh, jetzt sitzen wir anderthalb Stunden.",{"text":43418,"start":34358,"end":34388},"Und der hat mich nicht einmal zu dem Thema x y was gefragt.",{"text":43420,"start":34388,"end":34403},"Ich wollte doch unbedingt darüber sprechen.",56,{"sentences":43423,"speaker":111,"num_words":42381,"start":34403,"end":34411},[43424],{"text":43425,"start":34403,"end":34411},"Ich hab ich",{"sentences":43427,"speaker":132,"num_words":42524,"start":34413,"end":34424},[43428],{"text":43429,"start":34413,"end":34424},"Das ist jetzt deine Chance.",{"sentences":43431,"speaker":111,"num_words":41769,"start":34424,"end":34611},[43432,43434,43436,43438,43440],{"text":43433,"start":34424,"end":34446},"Ja, ich hab das 'n anderen Hut auf.",{"text":43435,"start":34446,"end":34537},"Ich bin ich bin ja zwar CTO von Open Project und bin da irgendwie für verantwortlich, aber ist eine Komponente im open Desk, 'n souveränen Arbeitsplatz der öffentlichen Verwaltung vom Zendis, also vom Bund.",{"text":43437,"start":34540,"end":34585},"Und da sind wir eine Komponente von 8, da ist zum Beispiel Element der der Chat, ne.",{"text":43439,"start":34585,"end":34603},"Ist das Für das Matrix Ding, ne.",{"text":43441,"start":34603,"end":34611},"Matrix, genau, super.",{"sentences":43443,"speaker":111,"num_words":41566,"start":34614,"end":34846},[43444,43445,43447,43449,43451],{"text":1858,"start":34614,"end":34615},{"text":43446,"start":34617,"end":34678},"'N cooles Zeug, Open Exchange für Mail und Kalender, Next Cloud, 'n richtig großes boomendes Unternehmen, ist dafür falz zuständig.",{"text":43448,"start":34678,"end":34740},"XWiki aus Frankreich, die machen halt im Prinzip ja, schon ewig lange machen sie sie Wiki Software und und sind Konkurrent von Confluence.",{"text":43450,"start":34744,"end":34761},"Wir alle zusammen machen da diesen open Desk.",{"text":43452,"start":34765,"end":34846},"Und was mir da bei dem Thema halt sehr, sehr wichtig ist, ist, dass man nichts sagt, okay, open Desk ist jetzt 'n gemein, also ich hab eine gemeinsames Look empfehlen, gemeinsam Namen.",{"sentences":43454,"speaker":111,"num_words":41631,"start":34849,"end":35123},[43455,43457,43459,43461,43463],{"text":43456,"start":34849,"end":34907},"Dass wir nicht, dass wir darüber hinausgehen, dass wir wirklich diese Open Source Anwendungen integrieren, sodass dann 1 plus 1 gleich 3 ist, ja?",{"text":43458,"start":34907,"end":34950},"Also dass dass wir die Dinge miteinander verzahnen, zusammenspielen lassen, gemeinsam einen Wert stiften lassen.",{"text":43460,"start":34952,"end":35030},"Und das ist eine Integrationsarbeit, die ist nicht leicht, weil Du hast 8 unterschiedliche Unternehmen, die eine eigene Roadmap oder eigenes System haben, auch 'n kleines bisschen im Nons, 'n anderes Businessmodell.",{"text":43462,"start":35033,"end":35110},"Und und trotzdem sind wir uns eigentlich alle einig, es gilt Microsoft und Google, ja denen eine da was danebenzustellen, was mächtiger ist als als das, was die bieten, ne.",{"text":43464,"start":35110,"end":35123},"Weil wir einfach Open Source sind.",{"sentences":43466,"speaker":111,"num_words":43421,"start":35123,"end":35261},[43467,43469,43471,43473,43475],{"text":43468,"start":35123,"end":35134},"Man kann das an erweitern.",{"text":43470,"start":35137,"end":35184},"Man kann andere Use Cases, die ein ein ein ein werbefinanziertes Unternehmen vielleicht nicht nicht machen würde, ja.",{"text":43472,"start":35184,"end":35195},"Wir können andere Sachen machen.",{"text":43474,"start":35195,"end":35206},"Wir können coolere Sachen machen.",{"text":43476,"start":35209,"end":35261},"Aber die haben halt alle immer diesen Single Sign on und man ist ja einmal drin und dann sind die Sachen miteinander verzahnt.",{"sentences":43478,"speaker":111,"num_words":43489,"start":35261,"end":35485},[43479,43481,43483,43485,43487],{"text":43480,"start":35261,"end":35278},"Und das müssen wir halt auch hinbekommen.",{"text":43482,"start":35281,"end":35379},"Und das mache ich in im Open Desk sehr, sehr, sehr, sehr viel, dass ich darum mich drum bemühe, dass wir auf offene Standards setzen für den für die Authentifizierung zum Beispiel von Zugriffen aus dem einen System ins andere System.",{"text":43484,"start":35379,"end":35389},"Da gibt's mehrere Probleme.",{"text":43486,"start":35389,"end":35461},"Das ist der Single Sign On ist Oorth, dann ist da der authentifizierte Zugriff, dass ich als Vailland aus Open Proteictors Next dot machen kann.",{"text":43488,"start":35461,"end":35485},"Das ist Oorth, zum Teil aber auch Token Exchange.",86,{"sentences":43491,"speaker":111,"num_words":41618,"start":35488,"end":35710},[43492,43494,43496,43498,43500],{"text":43493,"start":35488,"end":35498},"Das kann neue IDPs.",{"text":43495,"start":35502,"end":35564},"Und das ja, wenn Du jetzt 'n Projekt zum Beispiel aufsetzen, Open Projekt musst Du ja mit Menschen planen, die vielleicht sich noch nie eingeloggt haben.",{"text":43497,"start":35567,"end":35596},"Also musst Du auch die Nutzer schon provisioniert haben in allen Systemen.",{"text":43499,"start":35596,"end":35660},"Also wenn Du jetzt 'n Projekt hast, 'n Open Project und Du möchtest dort einen Projektordner in Nextcloud haben, damit das schön in deinen Desktop integriert ist.",{"text":43501,"start":35662,"end":35710},"Und da möchtest Du schon den Zugriff geregelt haben, bevor sich der Nutzer zum ersten Mal eine Nextout angemeldet hat.",{"sentences":43503,"speaker":111,"num_words":43514,"start":35712,"end":36057},[43504,43506,43508,43510,43512],{"text":43505,"start":35712,"end":35823},"Ja, das ist so Probleme, die die Du musst mehrere Standards implementieren, die eigentlich, wenn es einfach nur so was zu teuer wären als einzelnes Unternehmen, das zu implementieren, aber dadurch, dass Du das halt alle gleichzeitig machen und sich drauf einigen, lohnt sich das, ja?",{"text":43507,"start":35825,"end":35847},"Und solche Sachen solche Sachen, die finde ich halt richtig spannend.",{"text":43509,"start":35849,"end":35935},"Was was eigentlich passiert, wenn Du dieses, da gibt's ja dieses Chorsprinzip, ne, das ist irgendwie, Sachen sind billiger zu implementieren, wenn Du's in eigener Organisation machst als über über über Organisationsgrenzen hinweg.",{"text":43511,"start":35938,"end":36003},"Wenn man das schafft, durch gute Kommunikation und Teambuilding zu zu überbrücken, ja, also das das zu umgehen, da hab ich große Leidenschaft für.",{"text":43513,"start":36003,"end":36057},"Ich will, dass wir zusammen eine Alternative bauen, die wirklich mehr rockt und wuppt als das, was Big Tech dorthin bekommt.",135,{"sentences":43516,"speaker":111,"num_words":41416,"start":36060,"end":36075},[43517],{"text":43518,"start":36060,"end":36075},"Und da hab ich echt Passion für.",{"sentences":43520,"speaker":132,"num_words":43525,"start":36077,"end":36124},[43521,43523],{"text":43522,"start":36077,"end":36100},"Da hab ich, da hätt ich vielleicht 2 Fragen noch zu.",{"text":43524,"start":36103,"end":36124},"Von daher wars vielleicht doch nicht meine letzte Frage eben.",21,{"sentences":43527,"speaker":111,"num_words":41549,"start":36127,"end":36131},[43528],{"text":43529,"start":36127,"end":36131},"Jetzt hast",{"sentences":43531,"speaker":132,"num_words":43540,"start":36131,"end":36450},[43532,43534,43535,43537,43539],{"text":43533,"start":36131,"end":36220},"Du ja so aufgezählt, ne, aus aus wie viel anderen kleineren Projekten Open Desk so subsumiert ist im Prinzip und dass die Summe aller Teile dann natürlich größer ist als jedes einzelne irgendwie zusammen.",{"text":6264,"start":36222,"end":36223},{"text":43536,"start":36228,"end":36288},"Inwiefern siehst Du da eine Gefahr, dass die die potenziellen Anwender, Nutzer sich das torpedieren, weil sie halt nicht das ganze System nehmen, ne.",{"text":43538,"start":36288,"end":36448},"Also wenn da jetzt eine Komponente drin ist, so Identity und Access Management zu machen, dann hast Du eben selber gesagt, so oh Ort Twitter gemacht, oh Ort braucht ja irgendwie einen zentralen Identity Manager, was für die für die allermeisten da draußen dann wahrscheinlich so der der Google Account oder der GitHub Account oder keine Ahnung, was ist und damit melden sich dann irgendwo an.",{"text":6264,"start":36448,"end":36450},126,{"sentences":43542,"speaker":132,"num_words":41952,"start":36453,"end":36700},[43543,43545,43547],{"text":43544,"start":36453,"end":36568},"Und wenn ich das jetzt halt nicht auch noch bereitstelle in Open Desk oder das, was Open Desk dazu mitbringt, nicht nutze, ja, und dann trotzdem allen meinen Mitarbeitern sage, okay, ihr braucht aber 'n Google Account, 'n Office Account und keine Ahnung was, unser Open Desk zu benutzen.",{"text":43546,"start":36572,"end":36667},"Wie sehr torpediert sich das dann oder ne, also Identity ist 1, aber genauso, ich könnte ja sagen, okay, wir nutzen nicht Nextcloud, sondern wir nutzen halt irgendwie dafür Dropbox oder Google Drive und alles andere hat Open Desk.",{"text":43548,"start":36667,"end":36700},"Also inwieweit kann diese Mission nur gelingen, wenn wirklich alles verwendet wird?",{"sentences":43550,"speaker":111,"num_words":41681,"start":36703,"end":36926},[43551,43553,43555,43557,43559],{"text":43552,"start":36703,"end":36716},"Ah ja, ist auch gute Frage.",{"text":43554,"start":36718,"end":36737},"Und so was denkt mir natürlich auch mal gleich mit.",{"text":43556,"start":36737,"end":36834},"Also jemand, der Open Project verwendet, zum Beispiel aus Datensouveränität, überhaupt, Mendelog in und so weiter zu zu bekämpfen, heißt es noch lange nicht, dass der Mensch nicht auch trotzdem noch irgendwie Sharepoint im Einsatz hat, ja.",{"text":43558,"start":36836,"end":36855},"Und das, glaub ich, genau das das Thema, ne.",{"text":43560,"start":36857,"end":36926},"Dann ist halt die Antwort, ja, ist doch besser, diese offenen Standards zu verwenden, weil sich entspricht ja auch OADC oder so was uns geben für Nutzer Provisionierung.",{"sentences":43562,"speaker":111,"num_words":43573,"start":36930,"end":37236},[43563,43565,43567,43569,43571],{"text":43564,"start":36930,"end":36947},"Ist doch besser, auf diese offenen Standards zu setzen.",{"text":43566,"start":36947,"end":36994},"Ist auch, ich find's nicht gut, wenn man Komponenten, konkrete Komponenten ja alternativlos übernehmen muss, ne.",{"text":43568,"start":36994,"end":37098},"Das heißt, wir haben zwar gute Erfahrungen mitm Keykloke als IDP, ja, aber es sollte halt nicht heißen, dass wir nur mit einem Keykloke zusammenarbeiten, sondern Keykloke hat halt zum Beispiel die Fähigkeit, bestimmte Standards implementiert zu haben, ja.",{"text":43570,"start":37098,"end":37196},"Und da sind dadurch ermöglicht sich ermöglichen sich dann Szenarien wie zum Beispiel 'n Token Exchange, womit man halt im Namen 1 Nutzers remote ja, ja, sich sich an einem anderen Dienst authentifizieren kann und autorisieren kann.",{"text":43572,"start":37198,"end":37236},"Das hat halt einen und andere haben das halt noch nicht und deswegen würde dann halt gewählt werden.",119,{"sentences":43575,"speaker":111,"num_words":42411,"start":37238,"end":37440},[43576,43578,43580,43582,43584],{"text":43577,"start":37238,"end":37248},"Aber Du hast völlig recht.",{"text":43579,"start":37248,"end":37331},"Also wir wir wenn wir zum Beispiel die Next Lord Integration von Open Project sehen, ne, da willst Du Arbeitspakete bei uns, also Vorgänge und Du willst die, ja, was machst Du eigentlich?",{"text":43581,"start":37331,"end":37343},"Was sind eigentlich da Vorgänge?",{"text":43583,"start":37343,"end":37409},"Normalerweise hast Du irgendwie eine Datei oder so was, an der Du arbeitest, da sind die Inputs und Du hast dann irgendwelche Dateien als Outputs, ja?",{"text":43585,"start":37409,"end":37440},"Und der Vorgang ist sozusagen das Ding, das dazwischen, wo's getrackt wird.",{"sentences":43587,"speaker":111,"num_words":42235,"start":37440,"end":37590},[43588,43590,43592,43593,43595],{"text":43589,"start":37440,"end":37471},"Und dass Du das an deine NEXLA verknüpfen möchtest, ja klar.",{"text":43591,"start":37473,"end":37483},"Hast Du immer eine IDP?",{"text":37490,"start":37488,"end":37489},{"text":43594,"start":37489,"end":37561},"Ja, vielleicht hast Du irgendwo den Nexler drauf auf Hetzner laufen oder auf Jonas und Du hast dein Open Project bei uns in der Cloud oder so was.",{"text":43596,"start":37564,"end":37590},"Du hast vielleicht nicht einen IDP und trotzdem sollte man's irgendwie hinbekommen.",{"sentences":43598,"speaker":111,"num_words":42704,"start":37590,"end":37831},[43599,43601,43603,43605,43607],{"text":43600,"start":37590,"end":37677},"Und das ist das, was ich bei uns immer allen Leuten versuche, Bewusstsein dafür zu haben, dass wir halt nicht in einem kleinen abgespeckten Ökosystem Open Desk handeln, sondern wir arbeiten in einem Open Source Ökosystem.",{"text":43602,"start":37680,"end":37702},"Und Menschen, die halt Nextcloud verwenden, sind da, ne.",{"text":43604,"start":37706,"end":37748},"Das ist sone Wertesache und wir müssen in diesem Ökosystem denken und uns auch austauschen und einigen.",{"text":43606,"start":37748,"end":37816},"Deswegen gehen wir zur ForStAM und machen dort Vorträge dazu, sprechen mit den Leuten, dass sie sich auch committen auf diese Standards, sodass wir besser miteinander integrieren können.",{"text":43608,"start":37818,"end":37831},"Ja, unabhängig von den einzelnen Komponenten.",{"sentences":43610,"speaker":111,"num_words":42381,"start":37831,"end":37837},[43611],{"text":43612,"start":37831,"end":37837},"Also es geht.",{"sentences":43614,"speaker":132,"num_words":42740,"start":37839,"end":37887},[43615],{"text":43616,"start":37839,"end":37887},"Jetzt hab ich Open Desk so verstanden, dass es ja maßgeblich auch für für öffentliche Träger relevant ist, ne?",{"sentences":43618,"speaker":111,"num_words":41440,"start":37889,"end":37962},[43619,43621,43623],{"text":43620,"start":37889,"end":37895},"Ja, genau.",{"text":43622,"start":37897,"end":37928},"Und Aber es wird auch schon gefolgt und übernommen für privat und so weiter.",{"text":43624,"start":37928,"end":37962},"Also das, was Sie da bauen, ist Open Source und ja, Leute versuchen das Aber",{"sentences":43626,"speaker":132,"num_words":42053,"start":37962,"end":38036},[43627],{"text":43628,"start":37962,"end":38036},"wenn ich wenn ich an an Open Source und die öffentliche Hand denke und ich versuch eigentlich kein Pessimist zu sein, aber ich muss immer an dieses Limox Projekt denken.",{"sentences":43630,"speaker":111,"num_words":111,"start":38041,"end":38042},[43631],{"text":38044,"start":38041,"end":38042},{"sentences":43633,"speaker":132,"num_words":43644,"start":38046,"end":38476},[43634,43636,43638,43640,43642],{"text":43635,"start":38046,"end":38182},"Wo ja die Stadt München vor, ich weiß nicht, vielen, vielen Jahren, ich glaub, ist mittlerweile schon 10 Jahre her oder so, ne, irgendwann mal beschlossen hat so, ja, wir verabschieden uns von Microsoft und Office und wir setzen jetzt auf Linux und ich glaub irgendwie, Open Office oder LibreOffice oder was es halt irgendwie damals war.",{"text":43637,"start":38184,"end":38274},"Und das wurde jahrelang versucht und dann wurde das wieder zurückgerollt und dann wurde wieder auf Microsoft und Windows gesetzt, weil die Leute mit diesen Austauschformaten nicht klargekommen sind mit anderen Verwaltungseinrichtungen und so was alles.",{"text":43639,"start":38277,"end":38347},"Und dann wurde vor 'n paar Jahren, glaube ich, wieder gesagt, dass ah, dieses Microsoft ist irgendwie alles schwierig und wir gehen jetzt doch wieder zurück zu zu Linux und zu LibreOffice.",{"text":43641,"start":38351,"end":38426},"Die die dieses dieses Hin und Her, ja, das scheint ja irgendwie systematisch also symptomatisch zu sein für den für den Umgang mit Open Source aus öffentlicher Hand, so.",{"text":43643,"start":38428,"end":38476},"Und was was glaubst Du, kann Open Desk da noch noch richtig oder anders machen, damit sie nicht in ähnliche Probleme reinlaufen?",176,{"sentences":43646,"speaker":111,"num_words":42512,"start":38479,"end":38589},[43647,43649,43651,43653,43655],{"text":43648,"start":38479,"end":38522},"Ja, ich glaub, der der Unterschied ist, dass damals die Welt auch noch nicht so ganz so reif war.",{"text":43650,"start":38522,"end":38538},"Wir hatten auch nicht den Trump erlebt.",{"text":43652,"start":38538,"end":38557},"Wir hatten noch nicht so viele Krisen erlebt.",{"text":43654,"start":38557,"end":38570},"Also wir haben Trade Wars.",{"text":43656,"start":38573,"end":38589},"Wir haben ne, so Trumpsche Aktionen.",{"sentences":43658,"speaker":111,"num_words":41837,"start":38589,"end":38787},[43659,43661,43663,43665,43667],{"text":43660,"start":38589,"end":38668},"Dann haben wir die Pandemie erlebt, dass auf jeden Fall viel mehr remote gearbeitet wird und es 'n Bedürfnis gibt nach Werkzeugen, die einfach remote funktionieren und die man auch entwickeln kann.",{"text":43662,"start":38671,"end":38687},"Das ist sozusagen der der Open Source Bereich.",{"text":43664,"start":38689,"end":38714},"Dann haben wir den den den Überfall der Ukraine miterlebt.",{"text":43666,"start":38717,"end":38767},"Und da war nicht klar und zwar nicht klar, wie weit die russische Armee fortschreiten wird, wo wir sie stoppen.",{"text":43668,"start":38767,"end":38787},"Das war gar nicht am Anfang gar nicht klar.",{"sentences":43670,"speaker":111,"num_words":41566,"start":38789,"end":39019},[43671,43673,43675,43677,43679],{"text":43672,"start":38789,"end":38829},"Und dann haben wir irgendwie die zentralisierte Softwarelandschaft mit Rechenzentren von Amazon und so weiter.",{"text":43674,"start":38831,"end":38862},"Das das ist, also der, ne, der der Mindset ist ja 'n ganz anderer heute.",{"text":43676,"start":38862,"end":38908},"Heute hörst Du Souveränität, Soverenty überall, das ist das Passwort des Jahres, glaub ich, ja.",{"text":43678,"start":38911,"end":38968},"Gestern war der Gipfel, der französische Gipfel zum Eurostag, das ist das Wort, was am meisten da wahrscheinlich geflogen ist, ne.",{"text":43680,"start":38968,"end":39019},"Da hat der Bundeskanzler hat von Open Desk geredet und den Notwendigkeit, diese Open Source Software einzusetzen vom Bund.",{"sentences":43682,"speaker":111,"num_words":43691,"start":39021,"end":39090},[43683,43685,43687,43689,43690],{"text":43684,"start":39021,"end":39043},"Das hat der Bundeskanzler gesagt, von der CDU, ja.",{"text":43686,"start":39043,"end":39063},"Das ist, das ist eine andere Zeit, ja.",{"text":43688,"start":39063,"end":39082},"Das das das ist eine das ist Zeitenwende.",{"text":1858,"start":39086,"end":39087},{"text":1858,"start":39087,"end":39090},27,{"sentences":43693,"speaker":111,"num_words":1049,"start":39092,"end":39327},[43694,43696,43698,43700,43702],{"text":43695,"start":39092,"end":39136},"Auch wenn das Wort bisschen komisch ist von von von, aber ihr wisst was, weißt was ich meine, ne?",{"text":43697,"start":39136,"end":39174},"Das ist das trifft jetzt aufn ganz anderen eine ganz andere Bereitschaft, Risiken einzugehen.",{"text":43699,"start":39177,"end":39250},"Dass Du natürlich diese Probleme nach wie vor hast, ja, ey, guck mal hier, der ist jetzt irgendwie, die Mails werden nicht durchgestellt, das muss an dem Open Source liegen, ja.",{"text":43701,"start":39250,"end":39261},"Was 'n Quatsch, ja?",{"text":43703,"start":39261,"end":39327},"Das halt, wenn da hast Du halt irgendwie, Du musst Software pflegen und das dafür brauchst Du gute Leute und Software pflegen ist komplex, egal wie Du das machst, ja.",{"sentences":43705,"speaker":111,"num_words":43716,"start":39329,"end":39476},[43706,43708,43710,43712,43714],{"text":43707,"start":39329,"end":39359},"Das musst Du halt, das das ist nicht kein leichtes Ding, Software zu betreiben.",{"text":43709,"start":39362,"end":39393},"Und wenn Du keine Ahnung davon hast, wirst Du halt auf die Nase fallen.",{"text":43711,"start":39393,"end":39429},"Ich weiß jetzt nicht, das will jetzt nicht sagen, dass München das davon keine Ahnung hat.",{"text":43713,"start":39429,"end":39444},"Nee, 'n ganz in jeden Fall.",{"text":43715,"start":39444,"end":39476},"Ich bin sehr dankbar für all ihre Pioniersarbeit, die dort erfolgt ist.",62,{"sentences":43718,"speaker":111,"num_words":41566,"start":39478,"end":39681},[43719,43721,43723,43725,43727],{"text":43720,"start":39478,"end":39533},"Aber ne, wir in Deutschland und Europa, wir müssen uns dafür sorgen, dass wir halt gute Rechenzentren bekommen, die halt 'n von Gubanetistac unterstützen.",{"text":43722,"start":39536,"end":39550},"Haben wir nicht so viele, ja?",{"text":43724,"start":39552,"end":39561},"Da müssen wir hinkommen.",{"text":43726,"start":39564,"end":39615},"Wir müssen dafür sorgen, dass dass man der eine Wahl frei hat, hat seinen hellen Chart mal hier und mal dort zu deployen.",{"text":43728,"start":39618,"end":39681},"Ja, das ist, da arbeiten wir alle dran und die da muss auch die öffentliche Verwaltung muss da für Fähigkeiten entwickeln und das Coole ist, das passiert, ja?",{"sentences":43730,"speaker":111,"num_words":43741,"start":39683,"end":40053},[43731,43733,43735,43737,43739],{"text":43732,"start":39683,"end":39766},"Wir haben mit Open Code d e haben wir ein ein ein GitLab, wo aller Code veröffentlicht wird, denen dann das die die die ja die im Public Sector von von Deutschland verwendet wird.",{"text":43734,"start":39766,"end":39828},"Also unser Code wird da auch noch mal einmal geforgt oder gemörrt, damit es auf jeden Fall kommen wird, ist 'n unglaublich kräftiges Motto.",{"text":43736,"start":39831,"end":39907},"Wenn die Stadt Köln unseren Code einsetzt, ja, auf ihren Servern und das die Stadt Köln zu zu managen, dann ist es wichtig, dass der Code halt überall zur Verfügung steht.",{"text":43738,"start":39907,"end":39971},"Und wenn Du jetzt mal wirklich rumschaust, dann ist es halt nicht mehr nur die München, sondern das macht Stuttgart, das macht Chemnitz, das macht Berlin.",{"text":43740,"start":39973,"end":40053},"Dann macht das ja Kiel, das macht Universitäten, Kliniken, all all diese selber, das jetzt krieg ich an, ja, das machen, das ist ja kein kleines Ding mehr, ne.",144,{"sentences":43743,"speaker":111,"num_words":42260,"start":40053,"end":40184},[43744,43746,43748,43750],{"text":43745,"start":40053,"end":40078},"Das ist das das ist im Einsatz, das ist im.",{"text":43747,"start":40082,"end":40135},"Das ist, das da gibt's Audits, da geht da wird versuchen, Leute an die Daten ranzukommen und unseren Code zu knacken, ja.",{"text":43749,"start":40135,"end":40160},"Das das ist die Bounty Programme, alles Mögliche.",{"text":43751,"start":40160,"end":40184},"Also wir sind da heute ganz anders aufgestellt als damals.",{"sentences":43753,"speaker":132,"num_words":41416,"start":40186,"end":40203},[43754],{"text":43755,"start":40186,"end":40203},"Das ist, glaub ich, ein Aber am",{"sentences":43757,"speaker":111,"num_words":43762,"start":40203,"end":40228},[43758,43760],{"text":43759,"start":40203,"end":40216},"Ende ist es Management, ne.",{"text":43761,"start":40216,"end":40228},"Am Ende ist es Management.",10,{"sentences":43764,"speaker":132,"num_words":41656,"start":40231,"end":40442},[43765,43767],{"text":43766,"start":40231,"end":40248},"Ja und halt auch Wille, so, ne.",{"text":43768,"start":40248,"end":40442},"Also das das ist, glaub ich, der Punkt, auch was Du da gesagt hast mit, weiß gar nicht, ob sich so viel von den technischen Umständen geändert hat, aber wie Du halt sagst so, ne, die die politischen Umstände und der die die abstrakte Gefahr, die halt lange nur so potenziell beschrieben war, wenn die halt immer realer wird, ne, dann sind halt die Leute auch bereit, andere Risiken einzugehen oder den ein oder anderen Migrationsschmerz einfach halt auch mal auszuhalten.",{"sentences":43770,"speaker":111,"num_words":42369,"start":40445,"end":40455},[43771,43773],{"text":43772,"start":40445,"end":40452},"Ja, ganz genau.",{"text":5039,"start":40454,"end":40455},{"sentences":43775,"speaker":132,"num_words":42519,"start":40457,"end":40496},[43776,43777],{"text":29699,"start":40457,"end":40458},{"text":43778,"start":40462,"end":40496},"Dann bedanke ich mich Wieland bei dir für die viele, viele Zeit, die wir",{"sentences":43780,"speaker":111,"num_words":43098,"start":40496,"end":40517},[43781],{"text":43782,"start":40496,"end":40517},"heute von dir in Anspruch nehmen konnten und das",{"sentences":43784,"speaker":132,"num_words":42381,"start":40517,"end":40525},[43785],{"text":43786,"start":40517,"end":40525},"sehr interessante Gespräch.",{"sentences":43788,"speaker":111,"num_words":42369,"start":40528,"end":40537},[43789,43791],{"text":43790,"start":40528,"end":40535},"Auf jeden Fall.",{"text":902,"start":40535,"end":40537},{"sentences":43793,"speaker":132,"num_words":42771,"start":40539,"end":40616},[43794,43796],{"text":43795,"start":40539,"end":40562},"Wir hören uns bestimmt irgendwann mal hier wieder in der Programmierbar.",{"text":43797,"start":40564,"end":40616},"Ansonsten hören alle anderen da draußen uns in spätestens 1 oder 2 Wochen wieder und wir sagen bis bald und 1000 Dank.",{"sentences":43799,"speaker":111,"num_words":41778,"start":40619,"end":40721},[43800,43802,43804,43806,43808],{"text":43801,"start":40619,"end":40626},"Ich danke dir.",{"text":43803,"start":40629,"end":40644},"Ich wollt euch noch eine Sache sagen.",{"text":43805,"start":40644,"end":40666},"Ich hab die CTO Specials ja genossen, reinzuhören.",{"text":43807,"start":40670,"end":40705},"Es ist Sehr, sehr inspirierend zu hören, wie andere Leute in der Küche kochen.",{"text":43809,"start":40708,"end":40721},"Das ist sehr, sehr, sehr cool.",{"sentences":43811,"speaker":111,"num_words":41367,"start":40721,"end":40736},[43812,43814],{"text":43813,"start":40721,"end":40733},"Macht das bitte weiter, ja?",{"text":902,"start":40733,"end":40736},{"sentences":43816,"speaker":132,"num_words":43826,"start":40738,"end":40900},[43817,43818,43820,43822,43824],{"text":43790,"start":40738,"end":40744},{"text":43819,"start":40744,"end":40780},"Also es es lebt ja davon, dass wir dass wir auch coole Gäste haben so, ja?",{"text":43821,"start":40780,"end":40801},"Das hängt ja gar nicht so unmittelbar an uns.",{"text":43823,"start":40803,"end":40849},"Also wenn Du oder ihr da draußen noch Vorschläge für andere coole Gäste für CTO Specials habt, immer gerne her damit.",{"text":43825,"start":40849,"end":40900},"Ich muss tatsächlich sagen, die CTO Specials sind in der Organisation deutlich einfacher als die Deep Dives, ja?",67,{"sentences":43828,"speaker":132,"num_words":42704,"start":40900,"end":41139},[43829,43831,43833,43835,43837],{"text":43830,"start":40900,"end":40987},"Wenn Du son Deep Dive organisieren willst und dann sagen wir so, ich hätte hier, weiß ich nicht, wir haben jetzt neue Release von React, da suchen wir jemanden, mit dem wir drüber sprechen können.",{"text":43832,"start":40989,"end":41012},"Das immer ein bisschen schwierig dann da irgendwie jemanden zu finden.",{"text":43834,"start":41016,"end":41107},"Wohingegen bei den CTO Specials, wenn uns jemand vorgeschlagen wird oder wir selber irgendwie jemanden finden und den anschreiben und sagen, hey, hallo, wir sind die programmierbar, hast Du mal irgendwie Lust mit uns eine Stunde zu sprechen?",{"text":43836,"start":41110,"end":41136},"Außer einmal hat mir da noch nie jemand eine Absage gegeben.",{"text":41140,"start":41136,"end":41139},{"sentences":43839,"speaker":132,"num_words":43844,"start":41139,"end":41237},[43840,43842],{"text":43841,"start":41139,"end":41198},"Bei manchen dauert's 'n bisschen länger und manchmal ist da noch eine Presseabteilung und eine Legal Abteilung und keine Ahnung, irgendwie alles mit dabei.",{"text":43843,"start":41201,"end":41237},"Aber die die Leute sind da immer sehr, sehr viel zugänglicher, als man eigentlich denken könnte.",40,{"sentences":43846,"speaker":111,"num_words":42369,"start":41240,"end":41248},[43847],{"text":43848,"start":41240,"end":41248},"Ja, eine super Sache.",{"sentences":43850,"speaker":132,"num_words":41440,"start":41250,"end":41325},[43851,43853,43855,43857],{"text":43852,"start":41250,"end":41263},"Und davon lebt es ja irgendwann.",{"text":43854,"start":41263,"end":41293},"Von daher deswegen noch mal 1000 Dank, dass Du dir Zeit genommen hast.",{"text":43856,"start":41293,"end":41318},"Alle anderen werden sicherlich auch davon profitieren und bis bald.",{"text":43858,"start":41318,"end":41325},"Tschau tschau.",{"sentences":43860,"speaker":111,"num_words":42381,"start":41329,"end":41336},[43861],{"text":43862,"start":41329,"end":41336},"Tschau, danke 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