[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":55261},["ShallowReactive",2],{"/podcast/cto-special-30-fabian-lucas-von-kitchen-stories-7mind":3},{"podcast":4,"pickOfTheDayCount":83,"speakerCount":84,"relatedPodcasts":85,"transcript":86},{"id":5,"published_on":6,"type":7,"number":8,"title":9,"slug":10,"description":11,"transcript":12,"audio_url":13,"apple_url":12,"google_url":12,"spotify_url":12,"cover_image":14,"banner_image":12,"speakers":27,"members":46,"picks_of_the_day":78,"tags":79,"tagsPrepared":80,"speakersPrepared":81},"9283d74a-e13f-4521-888f-e60c11690b57","2025-01-24T16:00:00.000Z","cto_special","#30","Fabian Lucas von kitchen stories / 7mind","cto-special-30-fabian-lucas-von-kitchen-stories-7mind","\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">In jungen Jahren kommt Fabian Lucas an einen Computer, der sein Leben für immer verändert. Er beginnt zu basteln und schrauben, programmiert kleine Spiele und wird von der Neugier gepackt.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Diese Neugier begleitet ihn über den Rest seines Lebens. Nach einem Studium, das nicht gerade linear genannt werden kann, zieht es Fabian zuerst zu einem der größten Player im frühen Internet: Bei der Telekom soll er Innovation fördern. Doch dann landet er in der Berliner Start-up-Szene.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Dennis und Jan sprechen mit Fabian über seinen persönlichen Werdegang, wie es ist, als Entwickler ins kalte Wasser geworfen zu werden, und warum es für den Erfolg einer Company unerlässlich ist, dass sich Produkt- und Engineering-Teams gegenseitig vertrauen und eine Vision teilen.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp dir=\"ltr\">Aber natürlich wollen wir nach so einem Weg vom Entwickler zum CT(P)O auch wissen, wo es Gemeinsamkeiten und Unterschiede gab auf seinen beruflichen Stationen, welchen Rat er seinem jüngeren Ich mitgeben würde und wieso er während unseres ganzen Gesprächs einen Schraubenzieher in der Hand hatte.\u003C/p>",null,"https://www.buzzsprout.com/176239/episodes/16496322-cto-special-30-fabian-lucas-von-kitchen-stories-7mind.mp3",{"id":15,"title":16,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":17,"filename_download":18,"metadata":19,"type":20,"filesize":21,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":22,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":24,"folder":25,"width":26,"height":26,"charset":12,"duration":12},"8b7516c2-15e4-489d-99d2-6bf60b408d3b","Cto30 Fabian Lucas","8b7516c2-15e4-489d-99d2-6bf60b408d3b.jpg","cto30_Fabian_Lucas.jpg",{},"image/jpeg","1144045","2025-01-20T14:19:12.768Z","e97179d2-51b3-4deb-828f-9524091441f5","2025-01-20T14:19:12.766Z","35140572-5f04-494b-b197-bd9ef1edc33d",1500,[28],{"speaker":29},{"id":30,"slug":31,"academic_title":12,"occupation":32,"first_name":33,"last_name":34,"description":35,"event_image":12,"profile_image":36},"187e42c7-dd88-44a7-b378-0927d393e218","fabian-lucas","CTO und CTPO","Fabian","Lucas","\u003Cp>Schon als Kind entdeckte Fabian Lucas seine Begeisterung für Technik und Softwareentwicklung. Als Jugendlicher programmierte er erste Webseiten, und mit seinem Studium der Informatik und Medieninformatik legte er den Grundstein für eine Laufbahn, die ihn durch verschiedene spannende Stationen führen würde – von der Agenturwelt über die Deutsche Telekom und schließlich hin zur Startup-Szene.\u003C/p>\n\u003Cp>Als CTO bei Kitchen Stories spielte er eine zentrale Rolle bei der Entwicklung einer App, die heute Millionen von Menschen weltweit begeistert. Später verantwortete er als CPTO bei 7Mind die Bereiche Produkt und Technologie, leitete ein interdisziplinäres Team von 25 Mitarbeitenden und trieb die Weiterentwicklung des Produkts maßgeblich voran. Sein Antrieb ist es, innovative Technologie so einzusetzen, dass Produkte entstehen, die Menschen im Alltag wirklich weiterhelfen.\u003C/p>",{"id":37,"title":38,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":39,"filename_download":40,"metadata":41,"type":20,"filesize":42,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":43,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":44,"folder":12,"width":45,"height":45,"charset":12,"duration":12},"752dd0aa-1a31-4a14-9c8e-e1cb0a736a16","Fabian Lucas Profile","752dd0aa-1a31-4a14-9c8e-e1cb0a736a16.jpg","Fabian_Lucas_profile.jpg",{},"452764","2025-01-24T09:02:55.658Z","2025-01-24T09:02:55.655Z",1024,[47,62],{"member":48},{"id":49,"first_name":50,"last_name":51,"occupation":52,"description":53,"normal_image":54},"958f6624-c721-4ff9-8a97-69148f540945","Dennis","Becker","// Podcast-Host","\u003Cp>Dennis ist Head of Development bei Lotum und kümmert sich liebevoll um die Entwickler:innen und deren Weiterentwicklung. \u003Cbr>In den Podcastfolgen übernimmt Dennis gerne die Moderation. Beim täglichen Tischtennis ist er immer am Start und seit wenigen Jahren passionierter Kitesurfer. Mittlerweile ist er auch Vibe Coder mit Leidenschaft und überzeugt, dass seine Kolleg:innen AI unterschätzen. \u003C/p>",{"id":55,"title":56,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":57,"filename_download":58,"metadata":12,"type":20,"filesize":59,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":60,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":12,"uploaded_on":61,"folder":12,"width":45,"height":45,"charset":12,"duration":12},"7a9fd72e-16b1-4283-8c1f-348a3e7986f9","Dennis Becker","7a9fd72e-16b1-4283-8c1f-348a3e7986f9.jpg","dennis_becker_normal_01e352e682.jpg","45729","2022-01-16T14:26:35.196Z","2021-12-30T14:16:28.647Z",{"member":63},{"id":64,"first_name":65,"last_name":66,"occupation":67,"description":68,"normal_image":69},"47099351-508c-44d9-a2a2-855181c72ee8","Jan Gregor","Emge-Triebel","// programmier.bar Tech Community Lead // Podcast-Host","\u003Cp>Jan ist ein echter Technik-Fan mit einer facettenreichen Karriere, die sich über Web-, Mobile-App-Entwicklung und DevOps erstreckt. Dank seiner vielfältigen Rollen – vom Entwickler über den Teamleiter bis hin zum Vice President Development – verfügt Jan über einen großen Erfahrungsschatz in der Softwareentwicklung und Developer Advocacy.\u003Cbr>Seine Leidenschaften jenseits der Technik reichen von Tauchgängen an exotischen Orten über das Eintauchen in digitale wie analoge Spiele bis hin zum Abtauchen in gelungene Plot-Twists in Büchern und Filmen.\u003C/p>",{"id":70,"title":71,"description":12,"tags":12,"location":12,"filename_disk":72,"filename_download":73,"metadata":74,"type":20,"filesize":75,"modified_by":12,"modified_on":76,"embed":12,"uploaded_by":23,"uploaded_on":77,"folder":12,"width":45,"height":45,"charset":12,"duration":12},"ef7c0ccb-a2b5-48a0-8261-c8bbfffd917b","Jan CD","ef7c0ccb-a2b5-48a0-8261-c8bbfffd917b.jpg","Jan_CD.jpg",{},"649400","2024-07-26T09:26:17.846Z","2024-07-26T09:26:17.710Z",[],[],[],[82],{"first_name":33,"last_name":34,"profile_image":36,"slug":31,"description":35,"event_image":12,"academic_title":12},458,187,[],{"id":87,"service":88,"supported_features":89,"speakers":92,"raw_response":101},"8812f9c5-a52d-4d52-8eef-8f6a92532f43","deepgram",[90,91],"timestamps","diarization",[93,95,98],{"identifier":94,"name":50},"0",{"identifier":96,"name":97},"1","Fabian Lucas",{"identifier":99,"name":100},"2","Jan",{"metadata":102,"results":116},{"transaction_key":103,"request_id":104,"sha256":105,"created":106,"duration":107,"channels":108,"models":109,"model_info":111},"deprecated","eeb5fca6-928b-42b1-9fa7-413d3682b506","418bffdd83788ba43566b66fd48fbb954c4669430f24acf4306ceaacd0cfe42b","2025-01-24T15:05:15.272Z",4864.8223,1,[110],"91f8eabe-2126-4ed4-9e56-d480032309b3",{"91f8eabe-2126-4ed4-9e56-d480032309b3":112},{"name":113,"version":114,"arch":115},"2-general-nova","2024-05-09.3071","nova-2",{"channels":117,"utterances":36917},[118],{"alternatives":119},[120],{"transcript":121,"confidence":122,"words":123,"paragraphs":34950},"Hallo und herzlich willkommen liebe Hörer*innen zu einem neuen CTO Special. Die, die mich kennen und die das Format schon ab und zu gehört haben, ich sag den Satz immer vorneweg, ich freue mich besonders auf diese Folgen und so auch heute. Wir hatten ja glaube ich ein bisschen Zum Pause. Hätte ein bisschen Pause in der in in in dieser Reihe, aber hoffen wir zweitausendfünfundzwanzig wieder ein bisschen an den Start zu bekommen. Ich bin Dennis, an meiner Seite Ist der Jan. Hi hi. Ist der Jan von der Programmierbar und wir haben heute Fabian Lukas zu Besuch. Hallo Fabian. Hallo. Schön, dass ich hier sein darf. Ja, sehr cool, dass Du da bist. Zuletzt die BTO der 7 Mind GmbH, Kitchen Stories, auch ein großer großer Laden, kennen das nur ich Jan oder ist das wirklich, ist das so Deutschland durchaus bekannt, oder? Also ich kenn das auch, aber ich bin mir da auch immer nie so ganz sicher, ob das ich oder meine Bubble oder Okay, aber ich kann vielleicht auch gar nicht wahr werden noch sagen, wie groß Kitchen Stories am Ende denn in Deutschland war. Ich kenn das auf jeden Fall und habe es auch selbst benutzt. Und einige spannende Stationen vorher, wo uns Fabian ein bisschen Teil von haben lässt in der heutigen Folge. Sehr gerne. Eigentlich fangen all unsere CTO Folgen auch ziemlich gleich an, denn wir fragen am Anfang so, wenn Du mal zurückblickst und dein ganz junges Ich anguckst, wann war so dein erster Kontakt zu Technologie? Was hat dich an den Computer gebracht? Wieso hast Du angefangen, dich irgendwie mit Programmieren und Computern auseinanderzusetzen? Ja, also ich weiß nicht, ob ich das irgendwie in 'ner DNA hatte, aber es war wirklich früh bei mir, dass ich mich grundsätzlich für Technik interessiert habe. Für Also als kleiner Junge wird mir wird mir nachgesagt, dass ich quasi, sobald ich lesen konnte, irgendwie Gebrauchsanweisungen gelesen habe. Mhm. Und für die Familie dann entsprechend den Videokrekorder, die ja, die Kamera oder was auch immer programmiert habe. Und ja, bezüglich Computer, ich glaub das erste Mal so wirklich Kontakt zum Computer. Witzigerweise kann sich da keiner bei mir in der Familie so richtig erinnern, wo der herkam, aber wir hatten plötzlich einen Commodore hundertachtundzwanzig. Ah, okay. Der eher eher stiefmütterliches unbekannteres Modell nach dem C vierundsechzig. Genau, der war irgendwie, ich glaub, da war ich so acht, da war der einfach plötzlich da. Und den hab ich mir irgendwie so unter die Nägel gerissen. Natürlich ja, zum Spielen, wir hatten irgendwie auch, weiß ja auch keiner, wo die herkamen, irgendwie so, man hat ja noch diese schönen labbriken Fünfeinviertel Disketten mit Spielen, aber musste ja dann letzten Endes auch, Spiele zu starten. Es war ja jetzt wie beim, was weiß ich, Amiga später, wo man einfach oder bei der Spielekonsole so reingesteckt hat und hat's gebooutet von dem von dem Medium, sondern musste sich ja dann son bisschen zumindest mit ja Basic war das glaube ich auseinandersetzen. Und ich hab immer noch dieses gefühlte Muscle Memory irgendwie vom von der Kindheit, so dieses Load, Dollar Komma acht, wo man hat sich dann das Listing, die irgendwie lokal überschrieben wurde durch das durch das Dateilisting dieser Diskette und dann sich dann entsprechend, ja, diese diese Spiel, was auch immer man gestartet hat sozusagen, aus ausgewählt hat und wieder dann so geloaded und gerandt hat. Und ja, und ich hatte immer den Anspruch dann wirklich auch zu verstehen, was ist das eigentlich, was ich da mache? Wie funktioniert das? Und hab dann irgendwie sonen dicken Wälzer Basic Buch dann immer gehabt, wo man irgendwie irgendwie so mühevoll über Tausende von Seiten irgendwie ja, Befehle nachgeschlagen habe. Ich weiß noch, dass es da irgendwie so Poker gab, man irgendwie in Speicheradressen reinschreiben konnte, also magische Dinge, die man in Tabellen nachschlagen konnte, passiert sind. Und ja, und dann hab ich mich irgendwie dann da schon so mit acht, neun, zehn irgendwie Programmierung son bisschen auseinandergesetzt. Das heißt, ja ich hab irgendwie so mein Wissen mir irgendwie zusammengestückelt. Es gab ja auch so damals schon so Magazine, wo man halt so Listings abtippen konnte und ich weiß, so das erste so wirklich Ding, was ich irgendwie so gemacht habe, war, es gab irgendwie Sprites, die man so mühevoll über so Speicheradressen irgendwie dann über 'n Bildschirm bewegen konnte. Und dass ich dann hab ich irgendwie so eins und eins zusammengezählt. Ich hab irgendwie rausgefunden, wie man den Joystick, man hatte diese Joysticks gehabt, ein oder zwei, so die Eingaben abfragen kann. Und dann hab ich irgendwie son Spiel und wahrscheinlich auch sehr altersgerecht. Es war 'n Fangenspiel, also zwei Streits, dass ich einfach nur über zwei Spieler, die man einfach fangen musste, sondern war's Spiel vorbei. Das war eigentlich so mein erstes, wo ich mich Wiki zurückerinnern, halbwegs sinnvoll. Man würd jetzt sagen, okay, ihr ihr könnt sich wahrscheinlich besser mit Spielen aus, aber es hat hat jetzt nicht so die superkrasse, ja, hat Spaßfaktor, aber genau, das war eigentlich so das Erste, was ich damals irgendwie so zusammengestückelt habe mit irgendwie, weiß ich nicht, zehn Jahren. Ist doch interessant, ne. Also unabhängig von den den CTO Biografien, die wir jetzt hier schon hatten, wie viele Leute im Podcast eigentlich erzählen, sie sind durch Spielen zum Computer oder zur Entwicklung so gekommen, so. Ja. Weil weil sie halt mal so was selber machen wollten. Ja. Ja. Und das ist echt spannend, weil das war ja son bisschen Voraussetzung eigentlich und der Einstieg halt, ne. Und heutzutage ist das, glaub ich, nicht mehr so. Heute ist Spielen ja irgendwie gegeben, ne, auf welchem Medium auch immer und es bedarf nicht mehr dieses, ich muss mich irgendwie mit der mit dem System beschäftigen, so damit ich spielen kann, weil es ja super intrinsische Motivation ist, Ja. Sich halt mit der Hardware auseinanderzusetzen, ne. Ja. Ja, genau. Du hast dir kurz vor der Folge noch 'n Kaffee gemacht. Wenn Du jetzt son technisch interessierter Typ bist, würde ich mal vermuten, Du hast irgendwie 'n speziellen Kaffeeautomaten oder Ja, ist irgendwie Super Basic oder eine Siebträgermaschine. Was ist dein Kaffee? Siebträgermaschine. Eigentlich Sie Super Basic Okay. Manuell. Die musste jetzt eben auch erst mal warm werden. Genau und und machen mir dann sozusagen 'n sogenannten Flat White, also 'n doppelten Espresso mit aufgeschäumter Milch. Und das deswegen war er nur noch fünf Minuten weg grade. Ja, okay, aber das ist es, ich glaube, also bei mir ist das Zusammenhang zumindest, ich trink keinen Kaffee und trotzdem finde ich Kaffeemaschinen mega cool, weil mich halt irgendwie so die Techniker interessiert und es hat irgendwie was Technisches an sich hat. Von daher kam kam grade da dazu die Frage. Und Smarthomes, ne? Ist auch noch mal in dieser in dieser Bubble drin, ne? Da hab ich gefühlt auch in meinem Umfeld so so dieses irgendwie Know how Programmierung, aber dann irgendwie Kaffee und irgendwie seinen Home automatisieren. Das ist so eine eine Bubble. Ja. Ja, da bin ich, also doch, ich hab auch schon einiges an Sensoren zu Hause, aber es ist noch nicht, dass dass alles komplett automatisiert ist. Ich weiß nicht, ich Was hat sich nur roh, sich auszutoben? Ja, das stimmt. Die haben ja auch einiges an an an Technik verbaut. Dann wirst Du immer noch Bisschen was? Bisschen was? Ich bin ja nicht der Gast der Vollgeheult. Ich muss es trotzdem diese Story neu erzählen. Ich hab, weiß nicht, ob ich's im Podcast schon erzählen durfte. Aus diesen großen Disketten, die Du grade genannt hast, da hab ich nämlich damals noch 'n Business gemacht, als nämlich dann der Umstieg war auf die, was war die nächste Größe? Ja, dreieinhalb Zoll. Dreieinhalb Zoll, genau, dreieinhalb Zoll Disketten waren die großen, brauchte man nicht mehr. Und wenn man die aufgeschnitten hat und praktisch diese diese Scheibe da in der Mitte rausgenommen hat, diese Scheibe hat extrem geknistert. Die habe ich, da war ich dann in der, ah, weiß gar nicht, das war nicht eine Warn Grundschule fünf sechs sechs oder so was. Da habe ich die alle rausgeschnitten und als Knisper Knisper Papier in der Schule verkauft und hab irgendwie so zehn Pfennig oder so was für jede auf für für jede aufgeschnittenes Papier benutzt. Was war denn der Use Case von diesem Knissterpapier? Einfach nur, das ist geil, dass es so laut geknisster hat. Es ist nicht nicht besonders spannend, aber es war eine Wiederverwertung. Ja. Schon damals sustainable gedacht. Na ja, ja, lassen wir mal so im Raum stehen. Gut, also auch wenn ich das jetzt son bisschen vergleiche mit den CDU Folgen, die wir bis jetzt hatten, das ist zehn schon schon sehr früher Einstieg so Ja. In die in in die Entwicklung. Wie ging's dann weiter? Hattest Du das dann während deiner Schulzeit auch schon irgendwie die ganze Zeit so nebenbei und war's derjenige, der zu jedem Computerproblem befragt wurde oder gab's irgendwie noch mal eine Pause, bis Du's dann später noch mal aufgenommen hast? Nee, das war schon durchgehend. Ich bin dann sozusagen von der Kommodore Welt, beziehungsweise bin bei der Kommodore Welt geblieben und bin, hab sozusagen auf Amiga umgestiegen. Und ja, natürlich war ich irgendwie technischer Ansprechpartner für Friends und Family Und insbesondere hab ich dann, ich bin relativ spät dann, auch nachdem ich meinen Amiga zwölfhundert in, den hab ich irgendwie dann sozusagen umgebaut in son Midi Tower. Da gab's irgendwie so Umbausets, ich weiß nicht, ob ihr euch da dran erinnert, bin ich irgendwie dann in son sozusagen danach irgendwann, ich weiß nicht, fünfundneunzig oder zumindest mit Windows fünfundneunzig und Pentium bin ich dann in die PC Welt umgestiegen und war dann, ja, hab son bisschen dann, ja, mich mit den Themen beschäftigt und hab da das erste Mal dann auch im Geschäft in Anführungszeichen, sage ich sagen, draus gemacht, sozusagen PCs zusammenzustellen nach Bedürfnissen von, ja, im Bekanntenkreis, aber auch außerhalb, sprich, okay, Spielcomputer, gute Grafikkarte und wie viel Festplatte und so weiter und hab dann, ja, letzten Endes irgendwie schon 'n Gewerbeschein gehabt, hab dann irgendwie Komponenten son bisschen Bilder gekriegt. Ja, die Marge war jetzt irgendwie nicht riesig und wenn ich auch überlege, wie viel Zeit ich dann letzten Endes fürs Zusammenbauen und Schrauben verwendet habe, aber es war schon 'n gutes Zeitbusiness, hab ich glaube ich so mit, weiß nicht, siebzehn, achtzehn irgendwie angefangen Und dazwischen, weiß nicht, an der Schule haben wir dann schon, wenn wir jetzt von der Hardware wieder zur Software kommen, HTML gelernt. Das war ja echt schon relativ modern da, neben Togo Pascal, was, glaube ich, ich auch jeder irgendwie gemacht hat. Genau, weiß ich noch, dass son HTML Projekt in der Schule gemacht habe und da bin ich dann jetzt auch mit Internet, wir hatten dann irgendwann einen ISDN zu Hause, supergeil, mit Kanalbündelung und Code. Hundertachtundzwanzig k. Ja, wenns mal richtig schnell gehen sollte. Und ja, und dann hab ich halt eigentlich, bin ich dann in diese Webentwicklung sozusagen über HTML irgendwie selbst beigebracht, Slash Schule son bisschen, weil das ja, war jetzt auch nicht, war ja auch viel Lehrer, glaube ich, relativ neu damals. Und ja, und hab dann irgendwie mir das irgendwie selber beigebracht. Ich weiß nicht, ob damals das schon self HTML war, diese Website, wo man irgendwie alles Ganz gut. Nachschauen konnte. Vom auch hier, wie hieß der noch dieser Marki Tag, wo man so Laufschriften machen konnte und diese ganze Zeug. Also ich bin aber sehr stolz, dass wir heute auf der Programmierwebseite noch haben. Ja. Ja, aber heute ist es halt eine BUJS Komponente, die irgendwie mit zweihundert Zeilen groß ist oder so, diesen Effekt zu haben. Und früher war's halt markim mit Ein Tag. Ja. Ja. Ja. Am besten auch damals ja schon immer kombiniert mit dem Blinktag noch so, ja? Das muss muss ja blinken beim Durchlaufen. Na ja. Na ja, zumindest hab ich auch das dann eigentlich, also ich glaub so ab neunzehn zwanzig dann, ja, son bisschen zum Geschäft gemacht, dass ich so für für auch lokale Unternehmen, die irgendwie alle so, hey, wir wollen ins Internet, dann halt so Webseiten gebaut habe. Auch was ich ja irgendwie damals gemacht hab, ist Design. Das hat mich immer auch schon schon interessiert. Also ich hab auch ja son Gefühl für Ästhetik, Farben, Formen und Fonts irgendwie gehabt und hab sozusagen da son bisschen aus einer Hand letzten Endes Websitegestaltung und Implementierung dann gemacht. Das war zu Anfangszeiten, weil's halt auch irgendwie vor mein Studium noch alles irgendwie selbst zusammengestückelt, war noch relativ, ich mein, wie das auch damals war, so vier Programmiersprachen in einer Datei irgendwie so HTML, PHP CSS und Java Script in einer Datei so. Aber es hat funktioniert. Das hat auch so irgendwie irgendwie lange gehalten und ich glaub mittlerweile oder auch dann hab ich auch irgendwann gelernt, so was irgendwie gut zu strukturieren und wartbar und nicht mal irgendwie per FDP einfach nur aufm Server hochzuschieben und die Datei zu überschreiben und Co. Genau, das war so eigentlich das erste Mal, dass ich dann ja, letzten Endes auch gegen Bezahlung dann halt irgendwie halbwegs sinnvoll Code entwickelt habe. Waren das damals alles so, ich sag mal, statische Content- oder Visitenktenseiten so ungefähr, ne? Oder waren das wirklich schon Webanwendungen, Plattformen, irgendwas, die selbst das das Produkt waren? Oder war es immer nur eine Verlängerung einer schon bestehenden Firma? Also das Produkt kam später. Also wirklich so neunzehnhundertneunundneunzig und im Jahr zweitausend war's wirklich eher so Webvisitenkarte und ja, war son bisschen, also ich hab son bisschen mit mit mit serverseitigen Programmiersprachen angefangen, Aber wie gesagt, das war noch relativ chaotisch und ich würde sagen, die Seite war jetzt eher eine Visitenkarte, eine Vorstellung des Produktportfolios von 'ner Firma, als dass es jetzt eine wirkliche Applikation an sich war, dass da was passiert ist. Genau, nach oder während meines Studiums hab ich dann wirklich für eine Webagentur gearbeitet und da war's dann viel mehr in 'ner Applikation eigentlich. Da hab ich dann ja letzten Endes Shops gemacht in erster Linie. Irgendwie hat sich da bei mir sind immer die Fäden dann zusammengelaufen, dass ich derjenige war, der quasi in diesem Netzwerk, was wir dann irgendwann so hatten, so von Freelancern und Werkstudenten und Agenturen derjenige war, der quasi Onlineshops aufgesetzt haben. Es gab damals schon so die ersten Open Source Shops, PHP. Magento. Ja, es war eine vor Magento, es war irgendwie OS OS Commerce war das damals so. Genau, oder ich war irgendwie sone kommerzielle Variante. Und da ich irgendwie auch wusste, wie so war die grundsätzlichen Möglichkeiten, irgendwie technischen Möglichkeiten, dass wir das so ungefähr aufgebaut ist, wusste ich dann auch, wie ich sozusagen das Design anpassen kann in welchen Templates. Und somit war ich dann auch derjenige, der die designt hat, die Designs für die für die da gemacht hat. Und und genau, also auch wieder son bisschen ja, aus einer Hand, aber da eben son bisschen eben mehr Applikationen. Das heißt, mehr so mit Payment sich rumzuschlagen und mit irgendwie den Produkten und CSVs importieren und und ja, genau. Was hast Du betreuen? Was hast Du studiert? Ja, genau. Ich hab Informatik studiert eigentlich. Das war auch, ja, glaube ich, von jeher irgendwie klar, dass ich das mache. Ich hab zunächst in Bonn studiert an der Uni. Das war ehrlich gesagt nicht so mein Ding. Das war schon einfach 'n krass theoretischer Studiengang. Ich weiß noch, dass mein Mitbewohner in Bonn, also ich bin nach Bonn gezogen, in eine WG, der war son paar Semester vor mir, mir irgendwie sagte, ja, hey hier zwei, drei meiner Kollegen, die haben irgendwie das ganze Studium durchgezogen, ohne eine Zeile zu programmieren. Und das war damals irgendwie die Zeit. Zweiter Faktor war son bisschen, wir waren ein Semester, also im ersten Semester Informatik waren wir über tausend Leute. Es war, glaube ich, auch so die Welle der New Economy und alle wollten dann auch Informatik. Diese Gruppe hat sich dann, glaube ich, in den vier Semestern, wo ich an der Uni Bonn war, quasi immer wieder halbiert, sodass wir dann irgendwie bei hundert fünfundzwanzig angekommen sind, so ne, vier Semestern. Aber ja, es war halt wirklich pur Also ne, die Informatik, ich weiß nicht, also das eine wunderbare Uni, eine schöne Stadt, ne. Also es war damals einfach für mich so einer mathematischen Fakultät aufgehängt. Das war sehr, sehr matelastig. Ich hab mich mit theoretisch an Dramatik mit Turingmaschinen auseinandergesetzt, mit Programmiersprachen, die eigentlich keiner mehr nutzt oder die eben nur für die sonen Art von Selbstzweck irgendwie hatten und damit konnte ich halt überhaupt nichts irgendwie anfangen. Ich fand son paar, sagen wir mal, theoretische Grundlagen ganz gut, aber da hat's mir auch gereicht. Ich wollte, also ich hatte immer den Drang, es dann auch anzuwenden. Und deswegen bin ich dann quasi nach Bonn quasi hab ich geschaut, dass ich irgendwie meine Koffer packe und möglichst vielscheine von der Uni mitnehme und bin dann nach Berlin gezogen mit 'nem Freund und hab dann an der Beuthhochschule, also die hieß damals TFH, also eine Fachhochschule quasi zu zu Ende studiert und 'n Diplom gemacht noch. Ich glaube, wir waren ein eins der letzten oder vorletzte Diplom Abschlussjahrgang und ja, und das war natürlich was ganz anderes, ne. Also da waren auch die die die Dozenten, Dozentinnen quasi aus der aus der Wirtschaft, Da hat man sehr viel natürlich über Praktika und mit Firmen zusammengearbeitet und hat entsprechend da ja wirklich dieses Angewandte gehabt. Und das war auch nicht nur Informatik, sondern Medieninformatik hab ich studiert. Ich hatte zwar trotzdem dann Software Schwerpunkt, aber spannend waren halt auch so diese Sachen links und rechts, die man eine Hand hatte, ne? Von ja BWL ganz klassisch über Medienrecht über ja, klar auch wieder Mathe, aber genau, ich hab zum Beispiel auch einen einen ja chinesischkurs belegt über zwei Semester. Genau, also das war irgendwie schon, hatte eine Breite und mir hat dann irgendwie dann doch immer, weiß nicht, die Breite eher Spaß gemacht. Das heißt irgendwie son, ja, irgendwie son Blick so auf viele Sachen als nicht jetzt im, weiß ich nicht, nur irgendwie ausschließlich ein Thema und auch insbesondere an der Uni jetzt son bisschen so dieses selbstzweckmäßige, dafür ausgelegt, dass man an der Uni bleibt und in die Forschung geht, in die Lehre geht. Ja, und da war mir dieses Praktische und diesen Überblick bekommen. Hat zu mir persönlich besser gepasst. In den Jahren danach warst Du, vermute ich mal, an verschiedenen Stellen vielleicht auch im Recruiting Prozess irgendwie eingebunden. Mhm. Hat deine eigene Erfahrung irgendwie die Sicht, wie ist das richtige Wort, nicht geschärft, sondern irgendwie Also wenn Du heute auf Bewerbung guckst und den Unterschied hast irgendwie zwischen Fachhochschulen und Unis und, ne, reine Informatik und vielleicht anderen Randbereichen, Glaubst Du, dass Du durch deine eigene Erfahrung da auch 'n bisschen anders drauf blickst und Ja, also ich versuch da irgendwie nicht bei's zu sein. Wenn jetzt jemand irgendwie an der an der Uni Ewigkeiten studiert hat, eigentlich nicht. Ich finde, was schon ausschlaggebend ist, weniger das, was man sozusagen an an Hochschulabschluss macht, sondern wirklich an wirkliche Arbeitserfahrung hat und und da eine gewisse Diversität auch drin hat. Dass man verschiedene Strukturen und und und die hast in verschiedenen Setups gearbeitet hat. Ich das finde ich eigentlich viel wichtiger als hier zu sagen, okay, per se ist ist die Uni irgendwie, wäre ja eben besser oder schlechter als die FH. Gut, aber Dennis seine Frage weitergedacht oder deine Antwort weitergedacht, könnte ich ja auch sagen. In der Regel hast Du ja an Fachhochschulen viel mehr Praxisbezug oder Möglichkeiten, eben Praxiserfahrung zu sammeln durch Zusammenarbeit mit Firmen, durch Praktika, durch Werkstudentenstellen, durch durch was auch immer. Und dann wiederum Ja. Müsste ich dir ja schon unterstellen, dass Du zumindest nicht Ach so. Nicht weil es eine Fachhochschule ist, sondern durch die Art und Weise, wie sie unterrichten, ja oder wie wie das Lehrangebot aufgebaut ist, dass Du da vielleicht doch sonen leichten Vorzug dann sehen würdest. Ja, also durchaus. Ich meine, klar fördert das genau das, was ich gesagt habe, die die Arbeitserfahrung, die Anwendungserfahrung und auch wirklich sozusagen das Gelehrte quasi ein Nutzerproblem zuzuwenden und versuchen dieses Nutzerproblem zu lösen. Also ich find, das ist so irgendwie das Wichtigste. Und wenn ich dann an dem Beispiel von meiner Uni irgendwie irgendwie was habe, wo das irgendwie gar nicht zum Thema wird, dann ja, aber trotzdem gibt's super Universitätsstudiengänge auch, die eben auch diesen Praxisbezug haben. Das ist jetzt nicht per se, klar, die FH halt son bisschen mehr grundsätzlich, aber ist ja auch son bisschen die Frage Breite oder Tiefe. Was suche ich? Such ich jetzt irgendwie einen einen irgendwie also Machine Learning Learning Experten in der Tiefe? Dann dann suche ich natürlich eher auch jemanden, der in der Tiefe sehr lange gearbeitet habe oder suche ich son son Allrounder, Full Stack. Da gehe ich natürlich, suche ich eine Breite und so das Thema Kommunikation spielt ja irgendwie auch eine Rolle und so weiter. Also das hängt ja wirklich auch dann doch von der Rolle ab. Gut. Was ist nach der Uni passiert? Ja, während hatte ich ja eben schon, ich hab genau als Freelancer, Werkstudent so im Web Frontend Bereich würde ich jetzt mal Ja. Sagen gearbeitet und hab dann über quasi, das praktische Semester bin ich an die Deutsche Telekom gekommen. Das war hier in Berlin, sondern es hieß Die Spätfolgen von Bonn. Die Spätfolgen von Bonn, genau. Aber in Berlin witzigerweise. Ich meine, die die haben ja sozusagen, klar, ihren Hauptstadt in Bonn und und auch Darmstadt sozusagen, aber hatten hier in Berlin son Außenposten, das hieß Innovationsgesellschaft. Son kleines Team, das waren irgendwie so, weiß nicht, fünfzig, sechzig Leute, wenn ichs richtig in Erinnerung habe, die ja letzten Endes so ausgegründet son bisschen Start-up-mäßig Innovationsprojekte ja, gemacht haben. Und da bin ich irgendwie drauf aufmerksam geworden und da hab ich dann sozusagen mein praktisches Semester gemacht während des Studiums. Und dann gleichzeitig auch meine Teil meiner Diplomarbeit und mein erster Vollzeitjob. Das ging quasi alles so ineinander über und diese Innovationsgesellschaft, die haben halt, ja, verschiedenste Projekte innerhalb der Telekom gemacht. Das war einmal so dieses, ja, Webportal Geschäft so, da gab's Fußball d e, da gab's aber auch die t-online d e, wo Features gebaut wurden für, man muss bedenken, die t-online d e war damals immer noch die Standard Startseite für alle Analysten. T-online. Deutsche Webseite, ja. Weil sie einfach der Standardlink irgendwie ist bei bei den T-Online Usern. Genau, dann aber das Thema, was ich sozusagen dann auch mit 'nem, das war allen Dingen ganz schön, weil dann so mit mir son Team eigentlich erstmalig also von von sozusagen Entwickler, Entwicklerinnen geheiert wurden, so in verschiedenen Level. Die haben halt sozusagen erst ja die Entwicklung outgesourct über über Agenturen, aber dann irgendwann realisiert, es wär cool, wenn wir hier 'n Team aufbauen und da war ich halt Teil von. Das war echt ganz cool und wir haben halt in erster Linie dann vor Ort so IP TV und Web TV Projekte gemacht. Es gab ja sozusagen damals dieses Produkt entertain, das heißt jetzt, glaube ich, inzwischen Magenta TV. Mhm. Das war ja diese diese Box, die man sozusagen mit seinem Anschluss irgendwie dann bekommen hat, worüber man ja dann TV, Streaming sozusagen analog zum, ne, Kabelanschluss hat die Telekom dann über ihre neuen VDSL Leitung dann irgendwie sozusagen ja lineares Fernsehen ja gestreamt und diese Box, ne, kennt man ja mit Mediatheken und Co. Und wir hatten dann son internes Parallelprojekt, was auch eine Set up Box war, die aber anbieterunabhängig war, die wir ja, und das war echt megaspannend, quasi mit der Hardware, die wurde sozusagen gesourct und dann halt der Softwarestack. Also als ich quasi ankam, waren große Teile natürlich schon da und es war echt, ja, kaltes Wasser, würde ich mal sagen, weil es eine riesenmonsterhafte J2E irgendwie Applikation war. Ich meine, ich kannte Java, ich kannte auch Java so ausm Studium natürlich und und auch, weil ich mich mit Mobile Endlungen, mit J2ME damals son bisschen beschäftigt hatte, aber das war irgendwie so Monsterding und auch mit 'nem webbrowser, also also browserbasiertem Frontend, was auch superlaggy und langsam war. Aber genau, die Idee war irgendwie so S-Box, SDK, also dass halt dann Drittanbieter dort ihre Apps quasi ja alle draufsetzen können wie Mediatheken und die Idee war, dass das, ja, dann so als Alternativprodukt quasi auch für für für für andere Internetanschlüsse, also nicht providerabhängig sozusagen verkauft wird. Ja, und das wurde dann relativ schnell eingestellt und ja, auch natürlich son bisschen aus diesem interne Gedanken natürlich, weil auch Entertainment dann sich quasi gefestigt hat. Und wir haben dann auch, das heißt IP TV, uns in diesem Web TV Bereich damals, das war zweitausendsieben, zweitausend, nee, zweitausendsechs sieben so. Wir haben 'n Videoportal gebaut, das war damals ja, PHP mit mit Frameworks und quo und 'nem 'nem Flashplayer, einen Videoportal zum Thema Webserien. Das war damals son bisschen so die Erkenntnis, hey, es gibt diese Videoinhalte im Internet, so zweitausendsechs, ne. Die sind im Durchschnitt drei Minuten lang. Hat sich auch geändert, würde heute auch keiner mehr irgendwie behaupten. Und wir bauen da jetzt sozusagen auch mit Content Creatoren, also professionellen und auch ne guten Schauspielern, so dieses Web Serienformat, das ist so die Zukunft fürs Internet. Das heißt so Folgen, die so drei, vier Minuten lang sind, fünf Minuten und dann irgendwie zehn, zwanzig Folgen und dann so ja genau also Serienformate und da haben wir sozusagen dann son Webportal für gebaut, das hieß 3 Minute. Und genau und da hab ich dann, da gab's, sagen wir mal, einen sehr einschneidenden Moment. Ich weiß nicht, wie ihr damit fühlt zweitausendsieben, wo das erste iPhone aufn Markt kam. Und da ich da ja nun mal in der Telekom war, haben wir da relativ schnell an Tag eins halt das direkt zum US Launch auch in Deutschland dann das iPhone bekommen und das hat mich echt so völlig irgendwie begeistert. Und da hab ich mich halt sozusagen eigentlich der Mobile Entwicklung zugewandt. Also ja, was ja auch erst mal nicht ging, ne. War ja irgendwie son halbes Jahr oder so, bis der App Store irgendwie rauskam. Ja. Über über die die Jillbreaks nur irgendwie möglich. Da habe ich mich das nur dann reingefuchst, aber dann, was ich schon letzten Endes gemacht habe, relativ schnell dann für dieses Videoportal 3 Minute quasi eine iPhone App gebaut. Das heißt also Videostreaming, so Content Discovery Suche und Co für diese Serien. Und wir haben natürlich auch so dann in der in der Nachfolgeversion dann ja diese Sachen genutzt wie Push Notifications und Co, irgendwie Leute auf neuen Content. Also 'n bisschen wie son Podcast Player eigentlich. Und das war ja, war damals so die erste iPhone App, die ich gebaut habe und auch witzigerweise die erste iPhone App, die die Deutsche Telekom also unter ihrem Namen releast hat. Und ich weiß, dass das noch 'n Riesendrama war juristisch und ich dann in 'nem Call mit irgendwie Anwälten war und nur gehört habe, ey, das ist aber kalifornisches Recht. Das können wir nicht. Aber ja, das war dann so der Livegang der ersten ersten iPhone App der Deutschen Telekom. Spannend. War das war das mit der Grund, warum es dich nach der Deutschen Telekom nie mehr zu 'nem Großkonzern gezogen hat? Zunächst, ja. Zunächst, genau. Also ich hatte ja, also insbesondere wurde ja diese Innovationsgesellschaft auch während ich da war, so ganz langsam zurückintegriert in den Großkonzern. Also wir waren dann relativ schnell einfach in der Abteilung, nicht mal son Also wir waren vorher son unabhängige, ja, Entität mit auch allen Funktionen, die man so braucht, inklusive HR und so. Und das wurde dann relativ schnell während ich da war, hab ich gemerkt, okay, da gehen so die Fühler der des Großkonzerns immer mehr rein und irgendwann durften wir nicht mehr unsere schönen Rechner benutzen, die einfach im Netz waren mit Admin Rechten. Und ja, das war schon, ja. Aber war eine super Zeit und ich finde auch insbesondere eine sehr lehrreiche Zeit am Anfang der Karriere, sich da einfach mal so neben dem so irgendwie Agenturbusiness, was vorher war mal son großes Konzern von innen zu sehen Ja. Mit all seiner Politik. Ja. Nee, also iPhone Launch damals ist auf jeden Fall auch große Ding, was bei mir hängen geblieben ist. Das war gut bei mir noch relativ am Anfang vom Studium, aber hat dadurch natürlich dann auch mein mein weiteres Studium irgendwie stark beeinflusst und die Dinge, die ich danach dann getan habe, dann erst mal als iOS Entwickler zu arbeiten. Aber ja, man war halt einfach, genau, ich hatte wahrscheinlich nicht so nicht so schnell den Zugang wie Du damals dann zu dem Gerät, aber spätestens ab dem iPhone drei g. Also ich hab ja geschummelt. Mein erstes iPhone war ja 'n iPod Touch, weil ich mir auch keinen Genau. IPhone iPhone leisten konnte. Richtig. Aber ich war ja damals auch an der Uni und ich hab gedacht, na gut, an der Uni habe ich überall WLAN, zu Hause habe ich WLAN, dann tut's der iPoduch auch und das bisschen im Zug hin- und hergefahren, das kriege ich so mit Offline Musik und Podcastfolgen irgendwie überbrückt und so war war das mein Einstieg damals. Nicht ganz so dekadent wie bei Fabian hin, aber Nee, das war ja auch nicht funktional. Das war ja auch nicht mein persönliches Gerät, das war natürlich 'n Filmgerät, aber ich hab genau das auch gemacht und mir natürlich erst mal 'n iPad gekauft, weil das war ja auch das Einzige, was man ja in Deutschland dann letzten Endes bald relativ zügig kaufen konnte, so. Abgesehen davon waren ja auch damals, selbst wenn man das Glück hatte, ein iPhone zu bekommen, woher auch immer ich hab dann später auch reinzukommen, weil da waren ja mobile Daten auch noch exorbitant vorher. Das kannst Du heute auch keiner mehr vorstellen, dass ich für mein erstes Hundert Megabyte Paket fünfzehn Euro bezahlt hab, so. Ich weiß noch, dass ich auch das erste iPhone, eigene iPhone, das war 'n iPhone drei g in Italien bestellt habe. Also das war, weil das hier in Deutschland, glaube ich, noch gelockt war oder so. Ja. Und dann, genau, hab ich das irgendwie irgendwie italienisches Album gehabt. Ach schön. Ja. Schön, schöne Zeit. Gute Zeit. Was war der Grund für dich, dass Du dann gesagt hast, tschüs, Deutsche Telekom? Ja, ich mein, ich hab's irgendwie aufgezählt. Ich mein, ich feier dann doch irgendwie vier Jahre da auch 3 Minutes hat 'n Ende genommen. Mhm. Das ist, ich finde es aber megawichtig, weil ich finde gerade in, sagen wir mal so einmal so diesen kompletten Produkt lebensllebenszyklus Zyklus inklusive Sunset irgendwie mitzumachen, ist schon spannend. Nein, auch traurig natürlich, wenn man halt irgendwie mehrere Jahre irgendwie die Arbeit irgendwo reinsteckt, aber ich weiß noch, wie ich dann wirklich so den letzten App Release hochgeladen habe, der dann nur noch son son son View Controller hat. Ich bin damals, weil der so tschüs angezeigt hat. Und man konnte ja quasi Apps nicht löschen, also von den Geräten der User. Mhm. Und und ja, genau. Und dann gab's noch so ein, zwei Projekte, die irgendwie ganz cool waren. Für den Programmmanager zum Beispiel, da hab ich eine App mitgearbeitet. Es war diese App, wo man halt den diese Box von unterwegs irgendwie programmieren konnte, dass irgendwas aufnimmt. Genau, aber dann dann war irgendwie so die Luft raus und ich hatte dann doch irgendwie das Bedürfnis, so mich mit dieser aufkommenden Start up Welt in Berlin zu beschäftigen und bin erst mal Freiberufler geworden und hab dann eigentlich so das, was ich jetzt da so ja gelernt habe und es war jetzt schon super cool die Zeit ja bis hierhin gekommen, gerade so Schulung oder so was, ne. Das hat man natürlich echt super bekommen. Ich hab damals eben so Scrum Schulungen gemacht. Ich glaube echt viele so Scrum Master, Product Owner, Advanced eins, zwei, drei und das direkt zu unserem Team irgendwie versucht, also also das gesamte Team hat das gemacht an angewendet. Natürlich waren wir irgendwie son bisschen so 'ner so 'ner so 'ner so 'ner Bubble innerhalb dieses Konzerns, was auch nicht so richtig Sinn der Sache ist, aber so das alles was ich da so gelernt habe, so Mobile Entwicklung, aber eben auch diese Prozesszeit, ich war irgendwie Product Owner auch in der Rolle für dieses Videoportal teilweise, habe ich dann letzten Endes mit in meine Freiberuflichkeit genommen und dann diverse kleine und mittelgroße Projekte gemacht, App Projekte, so Konzept Consulting Projekte, aber auch so, ja, Agile Coaching würde man heute sagen. Ja, genau, und das war dann son bisschen so diese Zeit, bis dann ich zweitausendvierzehn dann auch über diese Freiberuflichkeit letzten Endes zu Kitchen Stories, ja, gekommen bin. Mhm. Was ja dann eigentlich wirklich so mein erster richtiger CTO Job war mit allen Gedöns, was dazugehört. Und Jetzt müssen wir Kitchen Stories, glaube ich, noch mal vorstellen. Genau, Kitchen Stories. Ja. Egal, erst mal fragen, ob für Fabian das selbstverständlich ist, dass jeder deutsche Kitchen Stories kennt. Wahrscheinlich nicht. Ich weiß, ihr habt ja den Tim von Chefkoch hier gehabt, der der der ist, willst Du dir gesagt, mit dem bin ich zur Schule gegangen. Also wir kennen uns von früher. Ah, okay. Und der muss, glaube ich, Chefkoch nicht erklären. Kitchen Stories geht natürlich schon in eine ähnliche Richtung, hat so schon einen anderen Schwerpunkt. Klar, geht's Kochen, wie der Name sagt. Und und so über so dieses reine Rezept hinaus hat Kitchen Storys gerade so das Thema, so sehr früh haben wir so das Thema Videoinhalte, Anleitungen das Ganze sehr interaktiv gemacht. Punkt eins Unterschied und Punkt zwei, ich mein, Deutschland ist zwar so mit der größte Markt, aber Kitchen Stories ist sehr schnell international quasi gegangen. Kann ich leider noch kurz das zu erzählen, also zwölf Sprachen. Irgendwie haben wir haben wir inklusive Chinesisch gemacht unsere Inhalte. Also es war son bisschen, es ist so die Mischung aus Editorial, also Inhalten, die wir selber eigens produziert haben, muss man so sagen, wirklich in unserem Büro in 'ner Küche Mhm. Mit Videos, Fotos und und und Köchen. Und dann das zweite Standbein ist so die Community, wie's halt eben auch bei Chefkoch ist, aber international. Also da haben wir dann so, ja, letzten Endes Community Rezept, aber auch so diese typischen Community Features. Also, okay, ich geborene's immer noch, ich red jetzt in der Vergangenheit, wie, ja, irgendwie kommentieren, sich gegenseitig folgen, liken und, ja Rezepte selber einstellen und solche Geschichten dann quasi auf das internationale Level gebracht. Und ja, das ist halt so eine Art Kochanleitung Community unter dem Namen Anyone Can Cook. Ja. Genau. Das ist eigentlich cool zusammengefasst. Kitchen Stories ist es aber auch natürlich erst über die Zeit zu dem geworden, sozusagen, was es was es was es dann jetzt ist. Was hat das für dich damals interessant gemacht? Weil also wenn man jetzt natürlich aus soner sehr technischen Ecke schon kommt, ja? Und auch jetzt bei der bei der Telekom, ich mein, heute lächeln wir vielleicht son bisschen drüber, aber ja schon son bisschen an der an der Vorfront des Internets sozusagen mit unterwegs war mit dem, was ihr da gemacht habt, ja? Ja. Also so IP TV, die ersten iPhone Apps und so was, ja. Und dann kommt jemand, sagt so, hey, ich hab hier son, ich hab hier son Kochbuch, so. Ja, genau. Brauch nicht dafür, so, ja. Wie wie überzeugt man dann jemanden? Ja, das war echt witzig, weil mir ging's ehrlich gesagt selber genauso, wie Du gerade gesagt hast so, ne. Also ich war ja auch meine ersten Monate Greenancer, ich hab das erst mal so, ich mein, die hatten auch noch kein Geld oder nicht viel Geld, jetzt irgendwie Leute wirklich einzustellen und so. Aber ich hab 'n, ja, letzten Endes, so dieses digitale Kochbuch war ja auch schon da, ne. Es war jetzt nichts sozusagen Neues von der Idee her. Was ich aber einfach gemerkt habe, dann wirklich in der eigentlichen Zusammenarbeit, ich hab's jetzt erst mal so als Projekt gesehen, aber dass es schon Potenzial hat für für für Innovation Und einfach, das Team war einfach super. Also das das das kann ich nach wie vor sagen, insbesondere die beiden Gründerinnen, wo ich halt gemerkt habe, okay, da ist so viel, ja Drive dahinter, das ist irgendwie, es funktioniert einfach wahnsinnig gut mit der Zusammenarbeit, sodass ich dann mich dann nach drei Monaten, vier Monaten dann quasi committet habe, quasi dann mit einzusteigen als CTO, als erster Festangestellter. Ich weiß noch, dass die irgendwie so mir erzählt haben dann im Nachhinein, dass die dann irgendwie keinen Arbeitsvertrag hatten und irgendwie von 'nem Freund von Rocket Internet irgendwie den Arbeitsvertrag einmal Copy Paste gemacht haben. Und ja, und dann hat mich dann doch irgendwie gab's in diesem Bereich dann, ich hatte jetzt kein Deep Tech krasses Problem so, aber es war dann doch irgendwie spannend. Gerade so im Technischen sind wir halt auf diese ganzen neuen Plattformen gegangen. Wir haben halt von Anfang an, glaube ich, hatten wir eine supergute Relationship mit Apple. Ich glaube, weil wir auch son typisches, ja, Apple Like Produkt waren, also die sind ja immer so, ja, wo halt irgendwie so dieses Tool den Content trifft, ne. Wo halt dann auch diese Glossy Bilder und Videos irgendwie sind. Ich glaub, da war haben wir son Nerv getroffen bei denen. Also dass wir irgendwie so dauergefeatured waren überall. Und dann wurden wir natürlich immer auch eingeladen, irgendwie zu diesen, ja, Events und beziehungsweise dann auch so private Session. Also ich bin, glaub ich, zwei oder dreimal nach Cupertino geflogen. Kann ich, glaube ich, jetzt auch drüber reden, zehn über zehn Jahre später. Ja, also zum Beispiel direkt nach der Vorstellung der Apple Watch, ne, wurden wir dann also nach Cupertino in son Raum ohne Fenster geladen und sollten dann auf diesen halbfertigen, wirklich muss man sagen, halbfertigen System halt oder konnten, ne. Es war ja eine eine Durften. Durften, ne genau. Opportunity, genau. Halt eine Watch App bauen. Und ich weiß, dass also zweimal am Tag kam dann irgendwie einen Apple Entwickler mit 'nem frischen USB Stick mit 'ner neuen EX Code Beta Version, der irgendwie die Bugs, die wir gefunden haben, die wir, die dann gefixt wurden. Also das, ja, das war halt dann irgendwie so das Spannende kam dann, auch wenn vielleicht das Thema irgendwie so, ja, Kochbuch. Aber ich glaube, ja, wir sind dann einfach sehr schnell so Multiplattform. Wir haben halt, also ich hab ja auch hauptsächlich getrieben durch mich dann, wo ich dann gedacht war, ey, wo können wir dieses Produkt platzieren, sind wir natürlich Android in die TVs reingegangen. Wir haben irgendwie eine Kooperation mit Samsung gemacht, dass wir da vorinstalliert waren auf Smart TVs. Und dieses Produkt, was ja auch sehr videolastig wieder war, was ja auch son bisschen wieder zurückgeht in das, was ich vorher gemacht hatte, war dann irgendwie so auf Augenhöhe irgendwie mit diesen Mediatheken und Co überall so auf diesen ganzen Firesticks und und Co. Und das das war dann irgendwie schon schon spannend, da halt so in alle diese Softwarestacks irgendwie reinzuschnuppern. Und genau und Das heißt auch. Im Backend. Mhm. Wenn damals Apple das so spannend fand und so die Zeit zweitausendvierzehn, dann war das wahrscheinlich nativ iOS Entwicklung dann oder? Genau, das war nativ iOS Entwicklung. Damals gab's ja auch jetzt, abgesehen von irgendwelchen Webgeschichten, nicht viel, was schön aussieht, was jetzt heute wie Flatter zum Beispiel heute ist. Und jede dieser Apps, die ich grade beschrieben hab, war natürlich auch eine native App. Also das, ja. Und ja, und das ist schon, muss ich wirklich sagen, gerade die Anfangszeit war wirklich schon eine wilde Zeit so im CDO Dasein. Das war erstens natürlich so, dass, hey, ich bin neu in 'nem Job. Und natürlich hat man, bringt man irgendwie so einen Teil, bringt man irgendwie mit. Das ist so diese Tech Erfahrung, ne. Ich würd sagen, jeder, der irgendwie so zumindest ein oder zwei Stacks einmal so richtig professionell irgendwie gemacht hat, kann dann auch relativ schnell oder ist irgendwie in diesem Seniority Level, das ist so eine Voraussetzung, dann kann man halt so sein Wissen relativ zügig planen, sich neue Sachen irgendwie aneignen. Für mich so eine Grundvoraussetzung auch für diese Lead Rolle, für diese Tech Lead Rolle. Und dazu kam dann halt, ja, letzten Endes dann auf einmal, ja, so Entscheidung, okay, bauen wir jetzt Personal auf. Wir mussten dann zeitweise auch wieder der Personal abbauen, also so irgendwie Achterbahnfahrt, wirklich vor auch wirklich schwierigen Entscheidungen, weil ich meine, es war halt einfach von der Finanzierung und hat sich dann so so durch die Finanzierungsrunden irgendwie gehangelt und ich wusste dann ja auch, ich war ja auch Teil des Managementteams, unser Geld reicht noch bis Mai. So. Was machen wir jetzt? Und okay, wir könnten jetzt überlegen, wie kriegen wir das noch bis in den Herbst, weil das saisonal irgendwie besser ist? Und das war natürlich dann schon noch mal dieser Ballast an, sagen wir mal Aufgaben und Verantwortung und auch, ich nenn's mal kaltes Wasser, was was wirklich so dazu kam, wo man glaube ich, wo ich persönlich, ich als CTO, glaube ich, wirklich dann noch mal wahnsinnig gewachsen bin. Also durch diese, ja, Situation und klar, waren's dann irgendwie auch schwere Entscheidungen wie Kündigung im Team mit Leuten, die man irgendwie einfach sehr gerne mag und mit denen man gut zusammenarbeitet oder halt, ja, irgendwie Leute einstellen und und in dieser Achterbahn haben wir uns son bisschen gefunden, wiedergefunden. Und ich hab am Anfang sozusagen die Entscheidung sehr bewusst getroffen, weil wir ja son bisschen so Mobile first waren wir ja so im ersten Jahr, ersten anderthalb Jahre. Wir machen kein Backend. Wir machen nur Mobile und dann, ich weiß nicht, ob ihr euch erinnert, ich hab nämlich auf gesetzt. Ich weiß nicht, wie ihr Pass noch kennt, das ist son Backend as a Service. Ja. Von wurde, glaub ich, von von von Facebook dann immer gekauft. Und ja, und wir haben halt, und ich mein, das wär auch, würd ich, glaub ich, die Entscheidung wieder so treffen, grade wenn man irgendwie in sonem Flux noch ist, das Produkt quasi und auch das Geschäftsmodell in in der Zeit über bei Kitschesteug noch sehr im Flux und es hat sich sehr viel immer sehr schnell geändert. Und da ja, irgendwie hatten wir auch so featureseitig und auch so so sagen wir mal das Domain Model quasi auch eher flexibel gehalten. Und insofern hab hab ich die Entscheidung getroffen, dass wir am Anfang nur Mobileentwickler quasi einstellen, die dann aber eben, ne, Pars hatte dann son SEC und einen Webkonfiguration sozusagen, son bisschen die Datenstruktur irgendwie festzulegen, aber eigentlich son bisschen wie's Firebase heute macht, ne. Mhm. Genau und das das da haben wir dann relativ lange durchgehalten und auch wirklich große nutzenden Zahlen über abgefackelt. Als wir international gingen und dann wirklich auch so diese Apple featurings irgendwie hatten und so, haben wir dann irgendwann mit, mit dem Team, es wurd Krisentelefonate gehabt, weil wir dann, das hat sich irgendwie auch rausgestellt, dass wir eine der größten Installationen irgendwie von diesem Pars System irgendwie waren. Und ja, aber dann, ich glaub rückblickend sozusagen, wir haben dann an dem Punkt sozusagen entschieden, an irgend 'nem Punkt entschieden, okay, jetzt ist irgendwie so alles so gefestigt und auch finanziell, dass wir quasi jetzt uns 'n eigenes Backend irgendwie bauen können. Und dann haben wir da relativ straight forward dann mit irgendwie Python und und und Django, sone gesunde Mischung aus, glaub ich, auch viele haben so Monolithen, aber dann einfach noch einige so kleinere Service, zehn, fünfzehn irgendwie außen rum, das dann quasi im laufenden Betrieb dann migriert, zumal es passt dann irgendwann hinaus, dass ich den Betrieb einstellen, was schon ganz gut am Wahrscheinlich direkt, nachdem ihr gekündigt habt so, ja okay, jetzt jetzt Nee, unser Teil der weggeworden. Runter. Wir hatten die die Entwickler, aber wir mussten uns dann doch noch mehr beeilen. Und ja, und das war dann, ja, aber eine gute und richtige Entscheidung letzten Endes. Du hast ja grade so diverse Unsicherheiten auch angesprochen, ne, und wie ihr euch da so eingependelt habt zwischen 'n bisschen Wachstum und 'n bisschen, ich sag mal, konservativeren Phasen vielleicht auch, ja. Und gleichzeitig wart ihr ja relativ früh in diesem Multiplattformspiel so unterwegs. Mhm. Wie nimmt man das dann wahr, wenn man ja quasi auf der einen Seite so seine eigene Story hier schreiben will und auf der anderen Seite ja auch so eigentlich nur 'n Spielball von ganz großen anderen Playern ist, ja. Also ähnlich wie bei uns ja auch, aber grade, wenn man sich noch enger an diese Plattform bindet, ja. Hier son son Deal mit Samsung, da auf den TVs zu sein, ja. Dann irgendwie hier mit Apple ganz dicke irgendwie zu sein. Und das das hat ja alles Licht- und Schattenseiten. Na ja, das hat ja, natürlich irgendwie gewisse gewisse Abhängigkeiten, Klumpenrisiko, was das Geschäft anbelangt. Dass, ich meine, wir haben also uns, sag ich mal, der ersten Hälfte meiner Anwesenheit eher sozusagen so ums Wachstum gekümmert, ums reine Nutzerwachstum. Das war schon auch gut und sinnvoll erst mal zu sagen, okay, wir wir bauen irgendwie so die Brand auf, so die Markenbekanntheit. Ist ja international auch wirklich echt nicht so leicht. Und da wars natürlich irgendwie schon so Mittel zum Zweck und irgendwie ja auch technologisch, wenn Du da 'n Team hast und davon waren halt einige irgendwie irgendwie iOS Entwickler und ich glaub in vielen, zumindest damals iOS Entwickler ist ja auch immer son bisschen Apple Fanboy, Fangirl, war's ja auch cool, dann irgendwie den neuesten, eigentlich mit jedem iOS Update wieder den neuesten Zeug im September irgendwie live zu haben, ne, mit den neuesten Features, SDK Features. Ey, das ist heute überhaupt nicht mehr so. Das wird heute, glaube ich, eine wesentlich untergeordnete Rolle, aber ich glaube, wir haben diese Welle irgendwie ganz gut mitgenommen damals, sozusagen für sozusagen, wie Wachstum zu sorgen. Aber dann sozusagen beim Geschäft, zumindest sozusagen, also wir waren ja kein BTC Premium Produkt, was auch relativ schwierig ist in diesem Rezeptumfeld, weil Rezepte ja irgendwie given und for free sind so, haben wir halt ja, uns die zweite Hälfte sozusagen eher eher ums ums ums ums Geschäft gekümmert, dann nachhaltig wirklich auch auf der Revenue Seite zu wachsen und das ist, dazu war jetzt Apple keine supergroße Hilfe. Und und so die Abhängigkeit von diesen Großen, die Du eben beschrieben hast, sondern ich glaub, das hat uns genützt und ja, insbesondere dann, also was ja dann eigentlich so das größte, der Ritterschlag war ja dann der Apple Design Award, den wir gewonnen haben und und auch mit einem Überraschungsbesuch von Tim Cook verbunden, was irgendwie auch ganz witzig war. Und einfach nette Erfahrungen auch irgendwie motivierend fürs Team. Absolut. Wie viel hast Du in dieser Zeit denn selbst noch Hand angelegt oder warst Du da schon komplett nur managt, managet unterwegs? Ich hab schon natürlich, am Anfang hab ich quasi alles gemacht und je mehr Team da war, ich quasi einstellen konnte, desto mehr, ja, hab ich dann ja letztens auch abgegeben. Ich meine, das ist, glaube ich, auch noch mal für alle City Oster draußen dieser, wenn man sozusagen wirklich von der Gründungsphase dabei ist, so ist schon einen ganz wichtiger Punkt dieses Loslassen. Gerade wenn das Team da ist, einem wirklich klar zu werden, was ist eigentlich meine Rolle jetzt? Und das ist in sonem ständigen Wechsel und es kann auch schmerzhaft sein. Genau, also ich hab dann eigentlich so ab, ja, ich hab mich dann immer mehr eigentlich so aus dem Code rausgezogen. Auch, ich meine, ich hab dann quasi am gegen Ende bei Kitchen Stories sozusagen auch so das Thema Product Management, Design und und und Data Analytics übernommen. Die Gründerin ist dann quasi in Mutterschutz gegangen und ich hab ihre Teams übernommen und was dann auch so geblieben ist, als sie wiederkamen, sodass ich dann eigentlich schon son bisschen CPT0 war in dem Unternehmen und da ist dann wirklich schon die Zeit wirklich 'n Code mitzuwühlen. Also ich glaube, ja, das die ist dann einfach auch nicht mehr da. Also dann ist man wirklich eher strategisch und ich meine, viel der Arbeit jetzt bei mir als CDO war schon wirklich im Management Circle entscheiden, wo geht's mit der Firma hin, was machen wir jetzt eigentlich, irgendwie abzuwägen Und zu diesem Tech irgendwie Verantwortung kommt ja dann auch wirklich eine Gesamtmitverantwortung über die Firma und eben auch eine Personalverantwortung dazu, ne. Also wirklich zu schauen, geht's den Leuten gut? Wie wie es aber auch steht so dieses Firmenbedürfnisse gegenüber dem Personal irgendwie? Das war ja sehr immer sehr auf Kante bei Kitchen Stories. Mhm. Und und genau, also das war dann schon eher irgendwie meine Aufgabe und der Code, der hat eigentlich seitdem bei mir son bisschen nachgelassen. Wie hast Du's in der Zeit dann aber trotzdem geschafft, als Teil von deiner technischen Verantwortung son bisschen im aktuellen zu bleiben, ja? Weil natürlich durch tägliche Arbeit, das ist so der eine Weg, ja. Und je je weiter man sich dann so vom Coach und vom Produkt entfernt, muss man ja trotzdem andere Wege finden, zu schauen, ne, was sind so neue Patterns, die da so Emergen, was sind Best Practices, was sind vielleicht 'n 'n interessantes Framework oder was Was gab's die Programmier oder noch nicht? Damals gab's die Programmierer schon. Kommt drauf an, ja. Also So zum Ende hin gab's die schon, so. Ja. Aber aber trotz, also ne, unabhängig von der Programmierer, wie hast Du es geschafft? Wie hab ich das geschafft? Ich hab angefangen, mich privat mit bestimmten Dingen zu beschäftigen. Ich hab gelesen, also es hat ja dann auch 'n Einfluss auf die Arbeit. Ich hab trotzdem jetzt, was meine meine Homiesacks betrifft irgendwie irgendwie geguckt, was passiert. Also ich klar, die Praxis, das ist natürlich das Ding, was was einem dann irgendwie fehlt. Nichtsdestotrotz glaube ich, wenn man einmal sowieso in 'nem Stack irgendwie zu Hause war, geht einem das auch nicht verloren, ne. Also, weil diese diese neuesten Veränderungen sind ja meistens zumindest nur inkrementelle Updates, die jetzt nicht quasi ja komplett Dinge aufn aufn aufn aufn Kopf stellen, sodass man dann irgendwie irgendwie gar nicht mehr zurechtkommt. Und ich meine sowas wie die Transition von Objective Sea zu Swift haben wir da hab ich natürlich mitgemacht. Irgendwie das Gleiche bei Kotelyn. Ja, also das, irgendwie hat man dann ja auch Erfahrungen gesammelt über die Zeit, die die einen, ja, ja. Aber ich ich stimme dir zu, dass es schon wichtig ist, also kontinuierlich quasi diese, Fortzone son bisschen zu verlassen und seine Fühle auszustrecken und zu gucken, okay, wie kann ich mich eigentlich, wie bleibe ich eigentlich am Tag der Zeit? Das ist schon wichtig, nicht stehen zu bleiben, ne. Da geborene ich dir schon schon recht auf jeden Fall. Ich würd's sogar vielleicht leicht andersrum formulieren. Also ich glaube, meine Erfahrungen sind die heute wieder sprechen, aber man man kommt überhaupt nur in diese Position wie bei dir, ob das jetzt so CTO, Teamlead, CTO, wie auch immer ist, wenn man sowieso schon der Typ ist, der halt sich kontinuierlich irgendwie weiterbildet Ja. Und so am Laufenden bleibt, ja. Und die einzige Challenge später, wenn dir halt son bisschen der Praxisbezug fehlt, ist halt da son alternativen Channel dafür zu finden. Aber dieses dieses Mindset, das musst Du, glaub ich, so oder so schon haben. Ja. Das stimmt, das stimmt, ja. Und ich meine jetzt, ich meine, wenn wir jetzt sozusagen zu meinem nächsten Job gehen, was 7 meint, wo ich sozusagen schon eher, sagen wir mal, als Manager reingekommen bin und gar nicht erst wie jetzt bei, wie bei wie bei Kitchen Stories quasi mit, also die erste Zeile Code quasi geschrieben habe und verbockt habe. Da, spätestens da war's dann auch wirklich notwendig für mich und da hab ich halt wirklich auch angefangen, wirklich noch mal eigene private Projekte irgendwie zu machen, ja, meinen Wissensdurst, den ich ja, wie Du ihn auch richtig beschrieben hast, den man, den ich, glaub ich, in mir habe, den, glaub ich, viele so in, ja, so als Voraussetzung haben, irgendwie zu stillen. Und ja, das das ja auch jetzt eben, weiß nicht, seit ein, zwei Jahren oder seit zwei Jahren dieses ganze AI Thema, ne. Also auch wenn man's nur bedingt vielleicht in der aktuellen Firma anwenden kann oder vielleicht auch brutal, aber ich mein, ganz viele haben sich ja sehr privat auch irgendwie damit beschäftigt und und und und irgendwie geschaut, welche Probleme kann das irgendwie alles auch im privaten Umfeld lösen, ne. Du sprichst da was ganz Spannendes an, dieser dieser Jobwechsel. Und Du hast es ja gesagt, bei Kitchen Storys warst Du relativ früh mit dabei. Und viel von dem, was man später ja auch in soner Managementrolle braucht, profitiert ja davon, ne. Du Du kennst die Leute, Du kennst die Kultur, Du kennst die Geschichte, Du kennst vielleicht auch so Zusammenhänge zwischen den Zeilen und so was alles, ja. Das hilft dir son bisschen, dich da auf dem Parkett zu bewegen. Mhm. Wie war das für dich dann, zu 7 Mind zu kommen, die ja schon, ich weiß nicht, ich glaub son paar Jahre älter dann waren zu dem Zeitpunkt quasi schon? Fünf Jahre alt. Und und und und wo dann ja quasi diese ganze Vorerfahrung gefehlt hat, aber trotzdem denselben Job machen musstest. Wie hast Du das aufgeholt sozusagen? Ja, das ist das ist, ja, also man hat natürlich die Gespräche mit den den Mitarbeitenden, die sozusagen dageblieben sind, beziehungsweise ich hab auch natürlich viel mit dem ehemaligen City auch noch gesprochen. Und baut sich dann natürlich sone Vergangenheit, sone sone sone sone sone imaginäre Vergangenheit im Kopf auf, wieso ist das eigentlich so, wie es ist? Und was ist eigentlich vorher passiert? Aber im Grunde ist ja schon mit die Aufgabe, klar, das ist son bisschen Voraussetzung, aber aber ist ja schon auch meine Aufgabe als CTO dann aufgrund dessen eher nach vorne zu blicken. Und deswegen also man akzeptiert Dinge, wie sie sind. Man muss natürlich auch und das war bei mir so, dass bei 7 mind, quasi wie das auch manchmal dann so ist, der CTO geht und auch Teile des Teams gehen dann, also bin ich sozusagen sehr stark erst mal so in dieses Hiring und Aufbauarbeit reingegangen und wie das dann auch so oft ist, dass dann sozusagen bestimmte Surfferkomponenten an bestimmten Leuten hängen, Mhm. Haben wir dann, ne, er sagt ja auch die Theorie, quasi mit dem neuen Team dann auch entsprechend quasi bestimmte Komponenten dann halt neu, genau, und und und sozusagen ersetzt, ja, eben dieses Blick nach vorne. Wenn ich jetzt auf die Firma gucke, okay Vergangenheit, sozusagen altes Team, Zukunft neues Team. Klar, die Deal natürlich im Sinne der der Tech Web mit bestimmten Sachen, aber ja, man man baut ja letzten Endes mit neuen Leuten auch neue Dinge auf und das das war sozusagen meine Aufgabe. Im Wechsel von Catching Stories zu Subemind, Gab es Dinge, wo Du, die Du, die Du klar anders machen wolltest? Also ich mein, Du hast natürlich irgendwie trotzdem Catchen Stories stark mit beeinflusst, aber hast Du dann irgendwie gesagt so, wenn ich das vermeiden kann oder wenn ich das anders machen können, dann dann würde ich das gerne jetzt, also diesen Punkt, anders machen? Ja. Ja, also ich war natürlich sozusagen nicht so tief involviert. Also ich hatte bei Kitcher Stories dann teilweise wirklich das Problem so zwischen dieser Tiefe und dem sozusagen dem ganzen Management teil. Und ich hab bei Sevenmann, ich war son bisschen wirklich mehr Manager. Also das war schon auch eine bewusste Entscheidung zu sagen, okay, jetzt bin ich einfach mehr Manager. Das hab ich gesucht. Ich wollte wirklich noch mal der CPTO Rolle quasi Raum geben, ne. Mhm. Und mich insbesondere diesen Produkt teil. Und deswegen also son bisschen die Tiefe, damit meine ich jetzt die Tech Tiefe, die, das war eine bewusste Entscheidung, das anders sozusagen anzugehen und und son bisschen dieses High Level, was son bisschen mehr Richtung General Management dann auch geht, ja anzueignen. Und ja, und dann, ich mein klar, man hat natürlich irgendwie auch Fehler gemacht, aus denen man lernt, dass ja sowieso, also ich kann nur jedem empfehlen, Dinge ausprobieren, so die Komfortzone zu verlassen und damit halt zu failen, weil das ist halt wirklich so das Beste, wo man halt wirklich lernt und keine Ahnung. Ich hab halt, ja, am Anfang früher total behiring, ne. Mhm. Ging's halt wahrscheinlich irgendwie in meiner Naivität damals schon mir persönlich natürlich, hey, ich behir jetzt hier 'n großes Team. Mir dann natürlich wenig, weniger Gedanken gemacht irgendwie, ich mein, das war auch son bisschen die Budgetseite so, okay, wie Senior sind die Leute jetzt eigentlich? Und genau, was er meint, war dann war dann natürlich auch, ich mein dann dieses Geschäft war gefestigt, eine profitable Firma, quo. Ja, das ist dann so Learning für mich, okay, ich stell lieber eine Senior Person ein, als jetzt zwei Juniors, so. Klar, es hängt immer von der von der Situation ab, wo man sich gerade darin befindet, also mit der Firma auch, aber wirklich noch mal dieses Hiring son bisschen mehr auf das wirkliche, ne, irgendwie Talent da draußen, wie findet man gute Leute, was wie findet man sozusagen auch Leute, die die die die man dann auch irgendwie langfristig halten will? Und genau, das glaube ich, war son son Erkenntnis, dass ich dann schon teilweise bei Catchen zwei ist am Anfang relativ naiv und schnell da, ja, 'n Team zusammengestellt habe. Ohne auch so diese theoretischen, ja, Gefüge wie Team Topologies und so weiter, was ich mir dann aber auch auch eher über die Zeit dann angelesen habe, ne. Ja. Hui. Jetzt zur Aufnahme der Folge hast Du uns verraten, dass Du nicht mehr CPO der bist. Und zu Beginn hast Du, also nicht zu Beginn, sondern zu Beginn des Jobs hast Du gesagt, okay, da wolltest Du noch mal eine neue Herausforderung und bist explizit da ins Management gegangen. Hat dir das da nicht so gefallen oder warum, was was wird, wirst Du in Zukunft tun? In welchem Bereich wirst Du unterwegs sein? Genau, also ich bin jetzt eigentlich seit Ende letzten Jahres, genau, hab ich die Firma verlassen, vielleicht son bisschen zur Hintergrund. Also wir haben Anfang letzten Jahres die Firma verkauft an Jimondo. Es gab sozusagen dann natürlich, wie das dann so ist, so relativ viele Veränderungen, die quasi, ja, so Thema Integration und Co. Ich meinerseits habe mich dann 'n paar Monate quasi rausgezogen. Ich hab Elternzeit genommen, mich auf die Familie konnte. Ich hab drei Kinder und die Herausforderung gehabt, dass ich einen Schulwechsel Gymnasium, eine im Sommer eine Einschulung und noch eine eingewöhner Kita quasi zu managen hatte und entsprechende Elternzeit genommen. Und die Zeit hab ich dann auch, sagen wir mal, gut vorbereitet. Ich hab mit meinem Team quasi so natürlich meine Abwesenheit geplant und dann letzten Endes in dieser Zeit mir natürlich selber auch noch mal Gedanken gemacht würden, welche Richtung will ich eigentlich hin? Und ich war ja jetzt über dreieinhalb Jahre aus 'ner CPDO, weiß 7 mind. Ja. Und ja, und die Erkenntnis dann doch wieder, hey, irgendwie dann doch wieder mehr Hands on. Weil ich mein, es war immer interessant, wirklich diese diese, sagen wir mal, fast reine Managementrolle irgendwie zwischen Production und Tech, die ich auch für sehr sinnvoll erachte. Aber ich kann mir durchaus sozusagen jetzt für die Zeit und ich hab jetzt auch schon so wieder 'n Softwareprojekt irgendwie gemacht mit 'ner Bekannten, wirklich noch mal wieder ja, dann doch wieder zu dem zu gehen, was wo ich, sagen wir mal, am Ende des Tages irgendwie rausgehe und sehe, okay, das ist das, was ich jetzt heute geschafft habe, da kann ich irgendwie drauf stolz sein, das ist irgendwie mein Pull Request, das ist mein mein, sagen wir mal Delirable, was man irgendwie anfassen kann. Und das ist so bei Management ja irgendwie son bisschen so dieses Und das hat schon, war schon sehr übermaßt, grade so diese Politik der Firmenübernahme, wo es dann halt wieder, wie ich's ne, eben mit der Telekom angesprochen habe, ne. Wenn dieses Politikspiel irgendwie losgeht, dann dann geht man irgendwie aus dem Tag raus mit so, okay, was hab ich denn jetzt eigentlich heute bewegt, ne. Ist irgendwie eher langsam, man schubst Dinge an. Und ich glaube, da suche ich jetzt für mich persönlich auch wieder was, wo ich aus dem Tag rausgehe und sehe, ey, da hab ich irgendwie was gebaut, was auch immer es sein. Und ich suche, also ich bin da gar nicht so festgelegt jetzt auf, was weiß ich Engineering Leadership oder auch Product Leadership, aber zumindest was, wo ich in den Gestaltungsraum habe und auch sehe, okay, das will ich irgendwie bauen. Mhm. Ja. Genau. Ja, versprechen wir uns ja dann in fünf Jahren noch mal und schauen, was er dann gebaut hat. Ja, absolut. Sehr schön. Ja, sehr gerne. Einmal gerne noch kurz auch so, weil CPTO ist, glaub ich, was, was man immer mehr auch sieht als als Rollenbezeichnung, wo dann Product Management und eben die die technische Verantwortung irgendwie einhergeht. Ich mein, Du hast es jetzt auch dann ja erste, also okay, Du hast gesagt, bei Kitchen Stories kam es durch die durch die Elternzeit der Gründerin, Mhm. Dass Du das mit übernommen hast. Wie ist so dein Take dazu? Also sollten das viele Firmen machen, kommt sehr drauf daran an, wie die Firma strukturiert ist. Hältst Du viel von dem Gemischten aus CPTO? Was ist son bisschen dein dein Take zu dieser Rolle? Mhm. Also ich kann gar nicht ultimativ sagen, ob das jetzt sinnvoll ist oder nicht sinnvoll ist. Es hat durchaus Vorteile. Das ist, ist ja oft so aus dem Erwachsen, dass so da Reibung stattfindet zwischen, sagen wir, den, der CPO oder der Head of Product versus CTO und ne Head of Engineering, dass da ja oft so, sagen wir mal, starke Interessenkonflikte irgendwie stattfinden, ne. Son bisschen dieses okay, der eine ist sehr auf sagen wir KPIs und und und und Erfolg fokussiert und der und der technische Gegenpart mehr auf wirklich Scalability und Co. Und wenn es sozusagen und das hab ich schon öfter gesehen, das war zum Beispiel auch der Fall bei Step Mind, bevor ich kam, dass es so zu 'nem sehr großen Grat hat, diese Reibung gab zwischen diesen beiden Rollen, was die Zukunft der Firma betrifft Und da eine Zusammenarbeit, die, wenn er auf den hohen Level, die irgendwie schlecht ist, dann halt auch so runter runtergeht. Und so war natürlich besser für meine persönliche Aufgabe, diese Teams zusammenzubringen. Also dass der Produktmanager ordentlich kommuniziert mit dem mit dem Entwickler und umgekehrt, dass der Designer immer mit dabei ist und das sozusagen im Kleinen, also dort, wo ja wirklich dann Innovation stattfinden soll in diesen Teams, die ja eigentlich unterschiedlich, ne, man sagt ja immer so der Her Crossfunktion der Teams, ne, aber da ist ja die Zusammenarbeit der Schlüssel eigentlich der Zusammenarbeit. Und da war natürlich meine Aufgabe sozusagen die Teams zu allein, aber dieser innere Konflikt, also der der Konflikt, der der ist natürlich dann so im, findet dann natürlich in meinem Kopf statt so, ne. Ich hab natürlich auch dann, bin auch hin- und hergerissen zwischen, hey, hier große Visionen, wo geht's hin? Und dann der CTO, der in meinem Kopf dann sagt, oh, wieso lässt denn alles gentechnisch so. Und aber ich glaube sozusagen fürs Team gibt es Situationen, wo das wirklich, ja, sehr sinnvoll ist, gerade wenn Du eine Organisation hast, die die die halt unter, ja, 'ner sehr starken, sone sehr starke künstliche Grenze irgendwie zwischen Product und Engineering irgendwie ist, ne. Wo die Designer und die Produktmanager irgendwie in soner anderen Welt leben als die Entwickler und ich glaube, eine CPTO Rolle kann dann gut sein, wenn es darum geht, diese Teams effizienter zusammenarbeiten zu lassen. Das kann ich kann ich eigentlich so unterschreiben. Ob es jetzt alle Probleme löst. Es gibt sicherlich auch Setups, wo wo es sozusagen irgendwie umgekehrt ist und jetzt ist auch sozusagen meine Nachfolge bei 7 meint es eher jetzt auch wieder Head of Engineering Health product. Also das das das Aber die verstehen sich halt gut und und und arbeiten gut zusammen und und genau, die ich jetzt so in den letzten Monaten aufgebaut habe, sodass sie das alleine weitermachen können. Und das ist, glaube ich, der viel entscheidendere Teil, ja? Weil wir hatten in früheren Unternehmen auch schon mal ähnliche Diskussionen, ja. Will man das zusammenlegen oder nicht? Und grade, was Fabian gesagt hat, na ja, das sind ja Teams und Rollenverständnisse, die ja eigentlich so diametral entgegengesetzt laufen, so, ja. Oder oder zumindest nicht hundert Prozent allein sind, egal wie wie wie gut sie's so machen. Und wir haben uns damals bewusst dagegen entschieden unter der Prämisse, dass wir halt diesen diesen Gegensatz auch nicht aufheben wollten, ja, sondern weil weil jeder für sich schon so seine Daseinsberechtigung hatte, so jeder jeder P o, ja, jeder Productmanager, es ist vollkommen richtig, dass der anders auf dieses Produkt guckt als halt jeder Ingenieur oder Designer oder Supportmitarbeiter, der da halt irgendwie beteiligt ist, ja, das ist schon okay. Was halt viel wichtiger ist und wo was wo wir uns dann entschieden haben, die Energie rein zu investieren, ist, dass die halt eine gemeinsame Sprache finden, irgendwie darüber sprechen zu können. Genau. Ja? Ja. Weil also Du Du kannst diesen Konflikt strukturell versuchen aufzuheben oder Du kannst den halt quasi auf funktionaler Ebene versuchen, so so aufzuheben. Und das war das, was wir damals versucht haben. Ich will nicht sagen, dass eins besser oder schlechter ist. Ich will nur sagen, dass das Problem, was Du was Du abgerissen hast, vollkommen richtig sehe ich auch. Ich würde nur sagen, es gibt nur, wahrscheinlich auch andere Möglichkeiten, das noch anzugehen. Ja, also ich finde immer sozusagen, Du hast es auch angesprochen, grade, dass in diesem ganzen Zusammenarbeit, diesen crossfunktionalen ist wirklich der Schlüssel in eine gute Kommunikation. Das ist auch einfach sone Sache, die ich in, wenn ich jetzt Leute anstelle, sei es irgendwie Pos, sei es Entwickler, schon auch sehr, sehr ernst nehme, wie gut können die eigentlich kommunizieren? Wie gut können die das vermitteln, woran die eigentlich arbeiten? Weil Du ja auch insbesondere, wenns auch eben nicht face to face zusammengearbeitet wird und und da jetzt irgendwie remote quasi, ja eben sich nicht gegenüber setzen, dann dann ist ja oft so der Kontext geht das verloren, ne. Und Du brauchst halt Menschen, die es schaffen sozusagen, sei es eine geschriebene Kommunikation oder eben auch mögliche Kommunikation in Meetings, es irgendwie auf den Punkt bringen. Und und ja, diese völlig unterschiedlichen Disziplinen und sind ja auch sehr unterschiedlich, auch wenn ich die Design noch zum Beispiel mit reinnehme, ne. Ja, sind einfach in ihrer Summe irgendwie natürlich am besten, wie ich eben gesagt habe, aber irgendwie dafür ist dieser wirklich die Fähigkeit Also das sehe ich immer wieder, dass es irgendwie scheitert. Also ich weiß nicht, wie viele Softwareprojekte scheitern nicht wegen irgend 'nem technischen Stack, sondern weil einfach Leute irgendwie nicht ordentlich miteinander reden. In vielen anderen irgendwie Companys. Deswegen also es ist nicht das Einzige jetzt auf diesen persönlichen Soft Skill Bereich, was ich für wichtig erachte, aber es ist schon mit Ein Schlüssel, so diese Übersetzungsfähigkeit der eigenen Arbeit letzten Endes zu leisten. Da kann ich noch eine Lust gar nicht tot zu erzählen. Sehr gerne. Ich glaube, was was ja superhilfreich ist an so Situationen, ist, wenn Du halt son bisschen egobefreit bist, ne. Wenn Du halt dann, es hilft ja halt so im Tagesgeschäft, über diese Unterschiede hinwegzusehen und halt nicht alles immer gleich als persönlicher in Angriff irgendwie zu lesen, ne. Und wir haben irgendwann mal angefangen im Recruiting, ich sag nicht nicht wo und mit wem. Aber wenn wir so Leute im Gespräch hatten, denen einfach manchmal auch son bisschen auf die Nerven zu gehen, So, ja. Und dann Du Du sprichst dann mit den Leuten und sagst so, hey, was hast 'n Du so für Hobbys? Und dann sagt der Dennis so, ja, Kitesurfen mach ich voll gerne. Und dann sagt er, Kitesurfen, das stell ich mir aber richtig langweilig vor. So, einfach sie mal son bisschen in sone unbequeme Situation zu bringen und dann halt zu gucken so, ne, werden die so defensiv oder öffnen die sich dann eher noch mal besonders raus, ne? Weil es gibt ja sehr unterschiedliche Arten und Weisen, damit umzugehen. Und das war tatsächlich 'n sehr guter Indikator für, wie gut passen diese Leute später auch in so crossfunktionale Teams? Na ja, genau. Und wie wie gut ist deren Fähigkeit, sozusagen unter Druck und Stress irgendwie zu funktionieren, ne? Ja. Und halt trotzdem auch deinem Gegenüber irgendwie noch noch nett zu bleiben. Und ganz ehrlich, das war halt auch im im Rekurs, war war super lustig so, ne? Natürlich haben wir denen das danach auch irgendwie allen so so noch mal erklärt, wenn sie dann eingestellt worden, sodass wir denen nichts Böses wollten. Ja. Aber da hast Du ja schon so bei dem einen oder anderen gesehen, wie son bisschen das das Gesicht so runterfällt dann, ne. Ja, schön, ja. Gut. Wir haben bisschen Zeit laufen das Ende unserer Zeit, aber im Jahr zweitausendfünfundzwanzig darf man ja keinen Podcast machen, wo man nicht noch mal explizit ganz kurz auf AI zu sprechen kommt. Du hast zumindest gesagt, Du hast dich ja nebenbei, ja beschäftigst Du dich auch 'n bisschen. Von daher dein ganz persönlicher Ausblick. Freude, Angst, wie sehr wird es deinen Job, den Job deiner Mitarbeitenden beeinflussen? Große Fragen jetzt grade, aber vielleicht kannst Du es ja trotzdem einfach so deine Gefühle zu AI Anfang zweitausendfünfundzwanzig kurz zusammenfassen. Ja, es wird uns begleiten und es wird auch kein Weg darum herumkommen. Also man kann sich dem eigentlich nicht widersetzen, auch dieser Veränderung, die angestoßen wird durch durch AI. Und es wird sicherlich Rollen geben, die ganz realistisch gesehen halt überflüssig werden. Was ich sozusagen der, also zumindest bisher der AI immer noch nicht so richtig zuschreibe, ist Kreativität. Es ist für mich immer noch gefühlt sonen, sagen wir, Pottbüro an an an an Geschichten, die zusammengewürfelt werden. Aber ich glaube, dass es in bestimmten Rollen, in bestimmten ja, Jobs nach wie vor Menschen gibt und auch geben wird, die quasi, was weiß ich, wie ihr irgendwie Spiele irgendwie bauen, entscheiden, was sozusagen gemacht wird, wie das gestaltet, ausgestaltet ist. Natürlich, also ich sehe AI wirklich schon als 'n großer, großer Gamechanger an, aber ich bin noch nicht so weit zu sagen, okay, die AI wird jetzt auch irgendwie alles so von Grund auf irgendwie überflüssig machen, was so Softwareentwicklung betrifft, weil so ja, bestimmte Dinge, glaube ich, ja, also nach wie vor weiterhin quasi den den menschlichen Charaktereigenschaften vorbehalten ist, wenn das irgendwie so halbwegs Ja, kann ich kann ich gut nachvollziehen. Ich mein, Tim Cook ist solch zu Kitchen Storys nach Berlin gekommen, ne. Also auch das ist ja ein Part von dem Erfolg irgendwie, der da ist. Und auch wenn eine AI die gleiche App, die er irgendwie hinstellt, sind es, glaube ich, noch mehr Faktoren, die beeinflussen, ob beim Produkt erfolgreich wird oder nicht? Ja. Ja, auf jeden Fall. Ich guck mal rüber zu dir, Jana, aber ich würd fast sagen, die Fragen müssen wir heute skippen, hä? Nee. Und dafür Das schaffen wir doch noch, oder? Das schaffen wir doch noch, oder? Noch mal, aber dafür würde ich lieber auf die eine noch die eine Frage stellen. Eine Frage? Ach so, ja, das kannst Du auch machen. Die stellen, ich überlass es dir. Was ich gerne noch wissen würde, Fabian, wenn Du jetzt zurückblickst auf all die Jahre, die Du schon in der Techbranche unterwegs bist, gibt es irgendwas, was Du deinem jüngeren Ich ins Ohr flüstern würdest, wenn Du zurückreisen könntest und sagen, hey, das ist 'n Pitfall, das ist was wirklich, macht das anders, verhalte dich da anders, trifft die Entscheidung anders? Gibt's irgendwas, wenn Du jetzt die ganze Laufbahn dir so anguckst, wo Du sagst so, hätte ich das mal gewusst, das wär cool gewesen. Und früh Nvidia Aktien kaufen zählt nicht. Schade, ja. Na ja, dann Apple Aktien, nee. Aber ja, wenn ich jetzt zurückreisen könnte, würde ich, glaub ich, schon in diese allererste Zeit bei Kitchen Stories Reisen, wo, ich hab ja son bisschen erzählt, irgendwie so so kaltes Wasser. Man ist auf einmal so eben nicht mehr nur in diesem Tech Bereich, sondern in ganz vielen anderen Bereichen. Irgendwie hin- und hergerissen zwischen irgendwie Management und Company, aber eben auch so Team, persönliche Befindlichkeiten. Und was ich mir, glaube ich, ins Ohr geflüstert hätte damals zumindest in der Anfangsphase, ist, Du bist nicht allein. Also man ist ja in der CTO Rolle irgendwie, man sagt ja irgendwie so, es gibt irgendwie oft einfach nicht son Counterpart in der Firma, ne. Jemand, der sich, jemand sich mal auskotzen kann oder sich irgendwie Rat holen kann. Und ich glaube, dass ich hab etwas zu spät realisiert, dass es ja da draußen einfach noch mal viele andere mit den gleichen Problemen gibt. Und war, hab etwas spät mit so irgendwie Netzwerken, aber auch so einfach mal wirklich 'n Gespräch aufnehmen, Sagen wir mal über so dieses Technische, man ist mal relativ easy going, dann mit anderen irgendwie, hey, hier Plattform, Tech, eins, zwei, drei, was machst Du denn? Das sind die neuesten, coolen Tools, die ihr irgendwie einsetzt. Sondern eben auch, hey, ich stehe hier vor dem Problem, mein Team will irgendwie was ganz anderes als irgendwie die Firma. Einfach son bisschen, ja, dieser dieser ja, dieser Austausch und und das kann ich einfach auch nur jedem in der Rolle ans Herz legen, weil das das bringt einfach unfassbar viel. Wie eben auch in anderen, also in allen anderen Jobs in der Firma, die es halt irgendwie in mehreren Instanzen irgendwie gibt, so sich halt in der CTO Rolle eben nicht alleine zu führen. Cool. Wärst Du noch etwas anderes gerne gefragt worden? Ich hab wunderbare Fragen gestellt. Also da fällt mir uns gar nichts mehr ein, was ihr was ihr ihr hättet fragen können. Sehr schön. Sehr schön. Mein mein Highlight ist übrigens das, was die Hörerinnen da draußen die ganze Zeit nicht mitbekommen haben, ist, also wenn ich nervös bin, brauche ich auch immer irgendwas in der Hand, mit dem spielen zu können, aber es hat ja niemand gesehen, was Fabian die ganze Zeit in der Hand hatte. Das stimmt. Ich hab's auch die, ich hab zwischendurch, genau, ich hab's zum Schluss überlegt, ob ganz, ob wir's erwähnen. Ah, das ist schön. Und und die Kaveter sind. Cool und sympathisch und die ganze Zeit mit dem Schraubenzieher in der Luft gefielt. Ich weiß auch gar nicht, warum er hier liegt. Das hat sich, glaube ich, erst mal so grundsätzlich irritiert. Aber ich glaub, ich hab irgend eine Batterie gewechselt für meinen Sohn und der liegt hier irgendwie noch am Schreibtisch und ja. Na ja, das ist ja schon, das ist schon cool so. Es es trägt so zur zur Nerd bei, wenn son son bisschen feinen Werkzeug muss aufm Schreibtisch rumliegen. Sehr schön. Na gut. Philipp's feine Ozean. Fabian, vielen, vielen Dank, dass Du dir die Zeit genommen hast, heute mit uns zu sprechen. Hat mir wahnsinnig viel Spaß gemacht. Jan, danke auch, dir Das war dein Fest. Vielen Dank an euch. Ich war gerne hier und vielleicht sieht man sich ja noch mal. Sehr gerne, hoffentlich. Also gut. Ja, ach so, fast vergessen an unsere Hörerinnen natürlich. Noch der Hinweis, wie immer sind wir auf euer Feedback auf euer Feedback angewiesen. Das könnt ihr uns gerne über unsere Programmier Punkt Bar Webseite schicken oder at Podcast at Programmier Punkt Bar oder jetzt sind wir auf Blue Sky und nicht mehr auf X unterwegs, also auch da gerne verloren und uns Nachrichten schicken. Wir freuen uns über alles, was da kommt. Joa, sonst irgendein Announcement, das weißt Du besser als ich. Aktuell. Kein Announcement. Sehr gut, außer die Vorgabe, mehr CTO Specials dieses Jahr. Das kriegen wir bestimmt hin. Sehr schön. Vielen Dank Fabian. Macht's gut, ihr Lieben. Tschau, tschau. Bis 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0: Hallo und herzlich willkommen liebe Hörer*innen zu einem neuen CTO Special. Die, die mich kennen und die das Format schon ab und zu gehört haben, ich sag den Satz immer vorneweg, ich freue mich besonders auf diese Folgen und so auch heute. Wir hatten ja glaube ich ein bisschen Zum Pause. Hätte ein bisschen Pause in der in in in dieser Reihe, aber hoffen wir zweitausendfünfundzwanzig wieder ein bisschen an den Start zu bekommen. Ich bin Dennis, an meiner Seite Ist der Jan.\n\nHi hi. Ist der Jan von der Programmierbar und wir haben heute Fabian Lukas zu Besuch. Hallo Fabian.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hallo. Schön, dass ich hier sein darf.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, sehr cool, dass Du da bist. Zuletzt die BTO der 7 Mind GmbH, Kitchen Stories, auch ein großer großer Laden, kennen das nur ich Jan oder ist das wirklich, ist das so Deutschland durchaus bekannt, oder?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also ich kenn das auch, aber ich bin mir da auch immer nie so ganz sicher, ob das ich oder meine Bubble oder\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay, aber ich kann vielleicht auch gar nicht wahr werden noch sagen, wie groß Kitchen Stories am Ende denn in Deutschland war. Ich kenn das auf jeden Fall und habe es auch selbst benutzt. Und einige spannende Stationen vorher, wo uns Fabian ein bisschen Teil von haben lässt in der heutigen Folge.\n\nSpeaker 1: Sehr gerne.\n\nSpeaker 0: Eigentlich fangen all unsere CTO Folgen auch ziemlich gleich an, denn wir fragen am Anfang so, wenn Du mal zurückblickst und dein ganz junges Ich anguckst, wann war so dein erster Kontakt zu Technologie? Was hat dich an den Computer gebracht? Wieso hast Du angefangen, dich irgendwie mit Programmieren und Computern auseinanderzusetzen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, also\n\nSpeaker 1: ich weiß nicht, ob ich das irgendwie in 'ner DNA hatte, aber es war wirklich früh bei mir, dass ich mich grundsätzlich für Technik interessiert habe. Für Also als kleiner Junge wird mir wird mir nachgesagt, dass ich quasi, sobald ich lesen konnte, irgendwie Gebrauchsanweisungen gelesen habe. Mhm. Und für die Familie dann entsprechend den Videokrekorder, die ja, die Kamera oder was auch immer programmiert habe. Und ja, bezüglich Computer, ich glaub das erste Mal so wirklich Kontakt zum Computer.\n\nWitzigerweise kann sich da keiner bei mir in der Familie so richtig erinnern, wo der herkam, aber wir hatten plötzlich einen Commodore hundertachtundzwanzig.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ah, okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Der eher eher stiefmütterliches unbekannteres Modell nach dem C vierundsechzig. Genau, der war irgendwie, ich glaub, da war ich so acht, da war der einfach plötzlich da. Und den hab ich mir irgendwie so unter die Nägel gerissen. Natürlich ja, zum Spielen, wir hatten irgendwie auch, weiß ja auch keiner, wo die herkamen, irgendwie so, man hat ja noch diese schönen labbriken Fünfeinviertel Disketten mit Spielen, aber musste ja dann letzten Endes auch, Spiele zu starten. Es war ja jetzt wie beim, was weiß ich, Amiga später, wo man einfach oder bei der Spielekonsole so reingesteckt hat und hat's gebooutet von dem von dem Medium, sondern musste sich ja dann son bisschen zumindest mit ja Basic war das glaube ich auseinandersetzen.\n\nUnd ich hab immer noch dieses gefühlte Muscle Memory irgendwie vom von der Kindheit, so dieses Load, Dollar Komma acht, wo man hat sich dann das Listing, die irgendwie lokal überschrieben wurde durch das durch das Dateilisting dieser Diskette und dann sich dann entsprechend, ja, diese diese Spiel, was auch immer man gestartet hat sozusagen, aus ausgewählt hat und wieder dann so geloaded und gerandt hat. Und ja, und ich hatte immer den Anspruch dann wirklich auch zu verstehen, was ist das eigentlich, was ich da mache? Wie funktioniert das? Und hab dann irgendwie sonen dicken Wälzer Basic Buch dann immer gehabt, wo man irgendwie irgendwie so mühevoll über Tausende von Seiten irgendwie ja, Befehle nachgeschlagen habe. Ich weiß noch, dass es da irgendwie so Poker gab, man irgendwie in Speicheradressen reinschreiben konnte, also magische Dinge, die man in Tabellen nachschlagen konnte, passiert sind.\n\nUnd ja, und dann hab ich mich irgendwie dann da schon so mit acht, neun, zehn irgendwie Programmierung son bisschen auseinandergesetzt. Das heißt, ja ich hab irgendwie so mein Wissen mir irgendwie zusammengestückelt. Es gab ja auch so damals schon so Magazine, wo man halt so Listings abtippen konnte und ich weiß, so das erste so wirklich Ding, was ich irgendwie so gemacht habe, war, es gab irgendwie Sprites, die man so mühevoll über so Speicheradressen irgendwie dann über 'n Bildschirm bewegen konnte. Und dass ich dann hab ich irgendwie so eins und eins zusammengezählt. Ich hab irgendwie rausgefunden, wie man den Joystick, man hatte diese Joysticks gehabt, ein oder zwei, so die Eingaben abfragen kann.\n\nUnd dann hab ich irgendwie son Spiel und wahrscheinlich auch sehr altersgerecht. Es war 'n Fangenspiel, also zwei Streits, dass ich einfach nur über zwei Spieler, die man einfach fangen musste, sondern war's Spiel vorbei. Das war eigentlich so mein erstes, wo ich mich Wiki zurückerinnern, halbwegs sinnvoll. Man würd jetzt sagen, okay, ihr ihr könnt sich wahrscheinlich besser mit Spielen aus, aber es hat hat jetzt nicht so die superkrasse, ja, hat Spaßfaktor, aber genau, das war eigentlich so das Erste, was ich damals irgendwie so zusammengestückelt habe mit irgendwie, weiß ich nicht, zehn Jahren.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ist doch interessant, ne. Also unabhängig von den den CTO Biografien, die wir jetzt hier schon hatten, wie viele Leute im Podcast eigentlich erzählen, sie sind durch Spielen zum Computer oder zur Entwicklung so gekommen, so. Ja. Weil weil sie halt mal so was selber machen wollten.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Ja. Und das ist echt spannend, weil das war ja son bisschen Voraussetzung eigentlich und der Einstieg halt, ne. Und heutzutage ist das, glaub ich, nicht mehr so. Heute ist Spielen ja irgendwie gegeben, ne, auf welchem Medium auch immer und es bedarf nicht mehr dieses, ich muss mich irgendwie mit der mit dem System beschäftigen, so damit ich spielen kann, weil es ja super intrinsische Motivation ist, Ja.\n\nSich halt mit der Hardware auseinanderzusetzen, ne. Ja. Ja, genau.\n\nSpeaker 0: Du hast dir kurz vor der Folge noch 'n Kaffee gemacht. Wenn Du jetzt son technisch interessierter Typ bist, würde ich mal vermuten, Du hast irgendwie 'n speziellen Kaffeeautomaten\n\nSpeaker 1: oder Ja, ist irgendwie\n\nSpeaker 0: Super Basic oder eine Siebträgermaschine. Was ist dein Kaffee?\n\nSpeaker 1: Siebträgermaschine. Eigentlich Sie Super Basic Okay. Manuell. Die musste jetzt eben auch erst mal warm werden. Genau und und machen mir dann sozusagen 'n sogenannten Flat White, also 'n doppelten Espresso mit aufgeschäumter Milch.\n\nUnd das deswegen war er nur noch fünf Minuten weg grade.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, okay, aber das ist es, ich glaube, also bei mir ist das Zusammenhang zumindest, ich trink keinen Kaffee und trotzdem finde ich Kaffeemaschinen mega cool, weil mich halt irgendwie so die Techniker interessiert und es hat irgendwie was Technisches an sich hat. Von daher kam kam grade da dazu die Frage.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und Smarthomes, ne? Ist auch noch mal in dieser in dieser Bubble drin, ne? Da hab ich gefühlt auch in meinem Umfeld so so dieses irgendwie Know how Programmierung, aber dann irgendwie Kaffee und irgendwie seinen Home automatisieren. Das ist\n\nSpeaker 2: so eine eine Bubble.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Ja, da bin ich, also doch, ich hab auch schon einiges an Sensoren zu Hause, aber es ist noch nicht, dass dass alles komplett automatisiert ist. Ich weiß nicht, ich Was\n\nSpeaker 2: hat sich nur roh, sich auszutoben?\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, das stimmt. Die haben ja auch einiges an an an Technik verbaut. Dann wirst Du immer noch Bisschen was? Bisschen was? Ich bin ja nicht der Gast der Vollgeheult.\n\nIch muss es trotzdem diese Story neu erzählen. Ich hab, weiß nicht, ob ich's im Podcast schon erzählen durfte. Aus diesen großen Disketten, die Du grade genannt hast, da hab ich nämlich damals noch 'n Business gemacht, als nämlich dann der Umstieg war auf die, was war die nächste Größe?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, dreieinhalb Zoll.\n\nSpeaker 0: Dreieinhalb Zoll, genau, dreieinhalb Zoll Disketten waren die großen, brauchte man nicht mehr. Und wenn man die aufgeschnitten hat und praktisch diese diese Scheibe da in der Mitte rausgenommen hat, diese Scheibe hat extrem geknistert. Die habe ich, da war ich dann in der, ah, weiß gar nicht, das war nicht eine Warn Grundschule fünf sechs sechs oder so was. Da habe ich die alle rausgeschnitten und als Knisper Knisper Papier in der Schule verkauft und hab irgendwie so zehn Pfennig oder so was für jede auf für für jede aufgeschnittenes Papier benutzt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Was war denn der Use Case von diesem Knissterpapier?\n\nSpeaker 0: Einfach nur, das ist geil, dass es so laut geknisster hat. Es ist nicht nicht besonders spannend, aber es war eine Wiederverwertung. Ja. Schon damals sustainable gedacht.\n\nSpeaker 2: Na ja, ja, lassen wir mal so im Raum stehen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Gut, also auch wenn ich das jetzt son bisschen vergleiche mit den CDU Folgen, die wir bis jetzt hatten, das ist zehn schon schon sehr früher Einstieg so\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: In die in in die Entwicklung. Wie ging's dann weiter? Hattest Du das dann während deiner Schulzeit auch schon irgendwie die ganze Zeit so nebenbei und war's derjenige, der zu jedem Computerproblem befragt wurde oder gab's irgendwie noch mal eine Pause, bis Du's dann später noch mal aufgenommen hast?\n\nSpeaker 1: Nee, das war schon durchgehend. Ich bin dann sozusagen von der Kommodore Welt, beziehungsweise bin bei der Kommodore Welt geblieben und bin, hab sozusagen auf Amiga umgestiegen. Und ja, natürlich war ich irgendwie technischer Ansprechpartner für Friends und Family Und insbesondere hab ich dann, ich bin relativ spät dann, auch nachdem ich meinen Amiga zwölfhundert in, den hab ich irgendwie dann sozusagen umgebaut in son Midi Tower. Da gab's irgendwie so Umbausets, ich weiß nicht, ob ihr euch da dran erinnert, bin ich irgendwie dann in son sozusagen danach irgendwann, ich weiß nicht, fünfundneunzig oder zumindest mit Windows fünfundneunzig und Pentium bin ich dann in die PC Welt umgestiegen und war dann, ja, hab son bisschen dann, ja, mich mit den Themen beschäftigt und hab da das erste Mal dann auch im Geschäft in Anführungszeichen, sage ich sagen, draus gemacht, sozusagen PCs zusammenzustellen nach Bedürfnissen von, ja, im Bekanntenkreis, aber auch außerhalb, sprich, okay, Spielcomputer, gute Grafikkarte und wie viel Festplatte und so weiter und hab dann, ja, letzten Endes irgendwie schon 'n Gewerbeschein gehabt, hab dann irgendwie Komponenten son bisschen Bilder gekriegt. Ja, die Marge war jetzt irgendwie nicht riesig und wenn ich auch überlege, wie viel Zeit ich dann letzten Endes fürs Zusammenbauen und Schrauben verwendet habe, aber es war schon 'n gutes Zeitbusiness, hab ich glaube ich so mit, weiß nicht, siebzehn, achtzehn irgendwie angefangen Und dazwischen, weiß nicht, an der Schule haben wir dann schon, wenn wir jetzt von der Hardware wieder zur Software kommen, HTML gelernt.\n\nDas war ja echt schon relativ modern da, neben Togo Pascal, was, glaube ich, ich auch jeder irgendwie gemacht hat. Genau, weiß ich noch, dass son HTML Projekt in der Schule gemacht habe und da bin ich dann jetzt auch mit Internet, wir hatten dann irgendwann einen ISDN zu Hause, supergeil, mit Kanalbündelung und Code.\n\nSpeaker 2: Hundertachtundzwanzig k.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, wenns mal richtig schnell gehen sollte. Und ja, und dann hab ich halt eigentlich, bin ich dann in diese Webentwicklung sozusagen über HTML irgendwie selbst beigebracht, Slash Schule son bisschen, weil das ja, war jetzt auch nicht, war ja auch viel Lehrer, glaube ich, relativ neu damals. Und ja, und hab dann irgendwie mir das irgendwie selber beigebracht. Ich weiß nicht, ob damals das schon self HTML war, diese Website, wo man irgendwie\n\nSpeaker 0: alles Ganz gut.\n\nSpeaker 1: Nachschauen konnte. Vom auch hier, wie hieß der noch dieser Marki Tag, wo man so Laufschriften machen konnte und diese ganze Zeug. Also ich\n\nSpeaker 0: bin aber sehr stolz, dass wir heute auf der Programmierwebseite noch haben.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Ja, aber heute ist es halt eine BUJS Komponente, die irgendwie mit zweihundert Zeilen groß ist oder so, diesen Effekt zu haben. Und früher war's halt markim mit Ein Tag. Ja. Ja.\n\nJa. Am besten auch damals ja schon immer kombiniert mit dem Blinktag noch so, ja? Das muss muss ja blinken beim Durchlaufen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Na ja. Na ja, zumindest hab ich auch das dann eigentlich, also ich glaub so ab neunzehn zwanzig dann, ja, son bisschen zum Geschäft gemacht, dass ich so für für auch lokale Unternehmen, die irgendwie alle so, hey, wir wollen ins Internet, dann halt so Webseiten gebaut habe. Auch was ich ja irgendwie damals gemacht hab, ist Design. Das hat mich immer auch schon schon interessiert. Also ich hab auch ja son Gefühl für Ästhetik, Farben, Formen und Fonts irgendwie gehabt und hab sozusagen da son bisschen aus einer Hand letzten Endes Websitegestaltung und Implementierung dann gemacht.\n\nDas war zu Anfangszeiten, weil's halt auch irgendwie vor mein Studium noch alles irgendwie selbst zusammengestückelt, war noch relativ, ich mein, wie das auch damals war, so vier Programmiersprachen in einer Datei irgendwie so HTML, PHP CSS und Java Script in einer Datei so. Aber es hat funktioniert. Das hat auch so irgendwie irgendwie lange gehalten und ich glaub mittlerweile oder auch dann hab ich auch irgendwann gelernt, so was irgendwie gut zu strukturieren und wartbar und nicht mal irgendwie per FDP einfach nur aufm Server hochzuschieben und die Datei zu überschreiben und Co. Genau, das war so eigentlich das erste Mal, dass ich dann ja, letzten Endes auch gegen Bezahlung dann halt irgendwie halbwegs sinnvoll Code entwickelt habe.\n\nSpeaker 2: Waren das damals alles so, ich sag mal, statische Content- oder Visitenktenseiten so ungefähr, ne? Oder waren das wirklich schon Webanwendungen, Plattformen, irgendwas, die selbst das das Produkt waren? Oder war es immer nur eine Verlängerung einer schon bestehenden Firma?\n\nSpeaker 1: Also das Produkt kam später. Also wirklich so neunzehnhundertneunundneunzig und im Jahr zweitausend war's wirklich eher so Webvisitenkarte und ja, war son bisschen, also ich hab son bisschen mit mit mit serverseitigen Programmiersprachen angefangen, Aber wie gesagt, das war noch relativ chaotisch und ich würde sagen, die Seite war jetzt eher eine Visitenkarte, eine Vorstellung des Produktportfolios von 'ner Firma, als dass es jetzt eine wirkliche Applikation an sich war, dass da was passiert ist. Genau, nach oder während meines Studiums hab ich dann wirklich für eine Webagentur gearbeitet und da war's dann viel mehr in 'ner Applikation eigentlich. Da hab ich dann ja letzten Endes Shops gemacht in erster Linie. Irgendwie hat sich da bei mir sind immer die Fäden dann zusammengelaufen, dass ich derjenige war, der quasi in diesem Netzwerk, was wir dann irgendwann so hatten, so von Freelancern und Werkstudenten und Agenturen derjenige war, der quasi Onlineshops aufgesetzt haben.\n\nEs gab damals schon so die ersten Open Source Shops, PHP.\n\nSpeaker 0: Magento.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, es war eine vor Magento, es war irgendwie OS OS Commerce\n\nSpeaker 2: war das damals so.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, oder ich war irgendwie sone kommerzielle Variante. Und da ich irgendwie auch wusste, wie so war die grundsätzlichen Möglichkeiten, irgendwie technischen Möglichkeiten, dass wir das so ungefähr aufgebaut ist, wusste ich dann auch, wie ich sozusagen das Design anpassen kann in welchen Templates. Und somit war ich dann auch derjenige, der die designt hat, die Designs für die für die da gemacht hat. Und und genau, also auch wieder son bisschen ja, aus einer Hand, aber da eben son bisschen eben mehr Applikationen. Das heißt, mehr so mit Payment sich rumzuschlagen und mit irgendwie den Produkten und CSVs importieren und und ja, genau.\n\nSpeaker 0: Was hast Du betreuen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Was\n\nSpeaker 0: hast Du studiert?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, genau. Ich hab Informatik studiert eigentlich. Das war auch, ja, glaube ich, von jeher irgendwie klar, dass ich das mache. Ich hab zunächst in Bonn studiert an der Uni. Das war ehrlich gesagt nicht so mein Ding.\n\nDas war schon einfach 'n krass theoretischer Studiengang. Ich weiß noch, dass mein Mitbewohner in Bonn, also ich bin nach Bonn gezogen, in eine WG, der war son paar Semester vor mir, mir irgendwie sagte, ja, hey hier zwei, drei meiner Kollegen, die haben irgendwie das ganze Studium durchgezogen, ohne eine Zeile zu programmieren. Und das war damals irgendwie die Zeit. Zweiter Faktor war son bisschen, wir waren ein Semester, also im ersten Semester Informatik waren wir über tausend Leute. Es war, glaube ich, auch so die Welle der New Economy und alle wollten dann auch Informatik.\n\nDiese Gruppe hat sich dann, glaube ich, in den vier Semestern, wo ich an der Uni Bonn war, quasi immer wieder halbiert, sodass wir dann irgendwie bei hundert fünfundzwanzig angekommen sind, so ne, vier Semestern. Aber ja, es war halt wirklich pur Also ne, die Informatik, ich weiß nicht, also das eine wunderbare Uni, eine schöne Stadt, ne. Also es war damals einfach für mich so einer mathematischen Fakultät aufgehängt. Das war sehr, sehr matelastig. Ich hab mich mit theoretisch an Dramatik mit Turingmaschinen auseinandergesetzt, mit Programmiersprachen, die eigentlich keiner mehr nutzt oder die eben nur für die sonen Art von Selbstzweck irgendwie hatten und damit konnte ich halt überhaupt nichts irgendwie anfangen.\n\nIch fand son paar, sagen wir mal, theoretische Grundlagen ganz gut, aber da hat's mir auch gereicht. Ich wollte, also ich hatte immer den Drang, es dann auch anzuwenden. Und deswegen bin ich dann quasi nach Bonn quasi hab ich geschaut, dass ich irgendwie meine Koffer packe und möglichst vielscheine von der Uni mitnehme und bin dann nach Berlin gezogen mit 'nem Freund und hab dann an der Beuthhochschule, also die hieß damals TFH, also eine Fachhochschule quasi zu zu Ende studiert und 'n Diplom gemacht noch. Ich glaube, wir waren ein eins der letzten oder vorletzte Diplom Abschlussjahrgang und ja, und das war natürlich was ganz anderes, ne. Also da waren auch die die die Dozenten, Dozentinnen quasi aus der aus der Wirtschaft, Da hat man sehr viel natürlich über Praktika und mit Firmen zusammengearbeitet und hat entsprechend da ja wirklich dieses Angewandte gehabt.\n\nUnd das war auch nicht nur Informatik, sondern Medieninformatik hab ich studiert. Ich hatte zwar trotzdem dann Software Schwerpunkt, aber spannend waren halt auch so diese Sachen links und rechts, die man eine Hand hatte, ne? Von ja BWL ganz klassisch über Medienrecht über ja, klar auch wieder Mathe, aber genau, ich hab zum Beispiel auch einen einen ja chinesischkurs belegt über zwei Semester. Genau, also das war irgendwie schon, hatte eine Breite und mir hat dann irgendwie dann doch immer, weiß nicht, die Breite eher Spaß gemacht. Das heißt irgendwie son, ja, irgendwie son Blick so auf viele Sachen als nicht jetzt im, weiß ich nicht, nur irgendwie ausschließlich ein Thema und auch insbesondere an der Uni jetzt son bisschen so dieses selbstzweckmäßige, dafür ausgelegt, dass man an der Uni bleibt und in die Forschung geht, in die Lehre geht.\n\nJa, und da war mir dieses Praktische und diesen Überblick bekommen. Hat zu mir persönlich besser gepasst.\n\nSpeaker 0: In den Jahren danach warst Du, vermute ich mal, an verschiedenen Stellen vielleicht auch im Recruiting Prozess irgendwie eingebunden. Mhm. Hat deine eigene Erfahrung irgendwie die Sicht, wie ist das richtige Wort, nicht geschärft, sondern irgendwie Also wenn Du heute auf Bewerbung guckst und den Unterschied hast irgendwie zwischen Fachhochschulen und Unis und, ne, reine Informatik und vielleicht anderen Randbereichen, Glaubst Du, dass Du durch deine eigene Erfahrung da auch 'n bisschen anders drauf blickst und\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, also ich versuch da irgendwie nicht bei's zu sein. Wenn jetzt jemand irgendwie an der an der Uni Ewigkeiten studiert hat, eigentlich nicht. Ich finde, was schon ausschlaggebend ist, weniger das, was man sozusagen an an Hochschulabschluss macht, sondern wirklich an wirkliche Arbeitserfahrung hat und und da eine gewisse Diversität auch drin hat. Dass man verschiedene Strukturen und und und die hast in verschiedenen Setups gearbeitet hat. Ich das finde ich eigentlich viel wichtiger als hier zu sagen, okay, per se ist ist die Uni irgendwie, wäre ja eben besser oder schlechter als die FH.\n\nGut, aber\n\nSpeaker 2: Dennis seine Frage weitergedacht oder deine Antwort weitergedacht, könnte ich ja auch sagen. In der Regel hast Du ja an Fachhochschulen viel mehr Praxisbezug oder Möglichkeiten, eben Praxiserfahrung zu sammeln durch Zusammenarbeit mit Firmen, durch Praktika, durch Werkstudentenstellen, durch durch was auch immer. Und dann wiederum Ja. Müsste ich dir ja schon unterstellen, dass Du zumindest nicht Ach so. Nicht weil es eine Fachhochschule ist, sondern durch die Art und Weise, wie sie unterrichten, ja oder wie wie das Lehrangebot aufgebaut ist, dass Du da vielleicht doch sonen leichten Vorzug dann sehen würdest.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, also durchaus. Ich meine, klar fördert das genau das, was ich gesagt habe, die die Arbeitserfahrung, die Anwendungserfahrung und auch wirklich sozusagen das Gelehrte quasi ein Nutzerproblem zuzuwenden und versuchen dieses Nutzerproblem zu lösen. Also ich find, das ist so irgendwie das Wichtigste. Und wenn ich dann an dem Beispiel von meiner Uni irgendwie irgendwie was habe, wo das irgendwie gar nicht zum Thema wird, dann ja, aber trotzdem gibt's super Universitätsstudiengänge auch, die eben auch diesen Praxisbezug haben. Das ist jetzt nicht per se, klar, die FH halt son bisschen mehr grundsätzlich, aber ist ja auch son bisschen die Frage Breite oder Tiefe.\n\nWas suche ich? Such ich jetzt irgendwie einen einen irgendwie also Machine Learning Learning Experten in der Tiefe? Dann dann suche ich natürlich eher auch jemanden, der in der Tiefe sehr lange gearbeitet habe oder suche ich son son Allrounder, Full Stack. Da gehe ich natürlich, suche ich eine Breite und so das Thema Kommunikation spielt ja irgendwie auch eine Rolle und so weiter. Also das hängt ja wirklich auch dann doch von der Rolle ab.\n\nSpeaker 0: Gut. Was ist nach der Uni passiert?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, während hatte ich ja eben schon, ich hab genau als Freelancer, Werkstudent so im Web Frontend Bereich würde ich jetzt mal Ja. Sagen gearbeitet und hab dann über quasi, das praktische Semester bin ich an die Deutsche Telekom gekommen. Das war hier in Berlin, sondern es hieß\n\nSpeaker 2: Die Spätfolgen von Bonn.\n\nSpeaker 1: Die Spätfolgen von Bonn, genau. Aber in Berlin witzigerweise. Ich meine, die die haben ja sozusagen, klar, ihren Hauptstadt in Bonn und und auch Darmstadt sozusagen, aber hatten hier in Berlin son Außenposten, das hieß Innovationsgesellschaft. Son kleines Team, das waren irgendwie so, weiß nicht, fünfzig, sechzig Leute, wenn ichs richtig in Erinnerung habe, die ja letzten Endes so ausgegründet son bisschen Start-up-mäßig Innovationsprojekte ja, gemacht haben. Und da bin ich irgendwie drauf aufmerksam geworden und da hab ich dann sozusagen mein praktisches Semester gemacht während des Studiums.\n\nUnd dann gleichzeitig auch meine Teil meiner Diplomarbeit und mein erster Vollzeitjob. Das ging quasi alles so ineinander über und diese Innovationsgesellschaft, die haben halt, ja, verschiedenste Projekte innerhalb der Telekom gemacht. Das war einmal so dieses, ja, Webportal Geschäft so, da gab's Fußball d e, da gab's aber auch die t-online d e, wo Features gebaut wurden für, man muss bedenken, die t-online d e war damals immer noch die\n\nSpeaker 2: Standard Startseite für\n\nSpeaker 1: alle Analysten. T-online. Deutsche Webseite, ja. Weil sie einfach der Standardlink irgendwie ist bei bei den T-Online Usern. Genau, dann aber das Thema, was ich sozusagen dann auch mit 'nem, das war allen Dingen ganz schön, weil dann so mit mir son Team eigentlich erstmalig also von von sozusagen Entwickler, Entwicklerinnen geheiert wurden, so in verschiedenen Level.\n\nDie haben halt sozusagen erst ja die Entwicklung outgesourct über über Agenturen, aber dann irgendwann realisiert, es wär cool, wenn wir hier 'n Team aufbauen und da war ich halt Teil von. Das war echt ganz cool und wir haben halt in erster Linie dann vor Ort so IP TV und Web TV Projekte gemacht. Es gab ja sozusagen damals dieses Produkt entertain, das heißt jetzt, glaube ich, inzwischen Magenta TV. Mhm. Das war ja diese diese Box, die man sozusagen mit seinem Anschluss irgendwie dann bekommen hat, worüber man ja dann TV, Streaming sozusagen analog zum, ne, Kabelanschluss hat die Telekom dann über ihre neuen VDSL Leitung dann irgendwie sozusagen ja lineares Fernsehen ja gestreamt und diese Box, ne, kennt man ja mit Mediatheken und Co.\n\nUnd wir hatten dann son internes Parallelprojekt, was auch eine Set up Box war, die aber anbieterunabhängig war, die wir ja, und das war echt megaspannend, quasi mit der Hardware, die wurde sozusagen gesourct und dann halt der Softwarestack. Also als ich quasi ankam, waren große Teile natürlich schon da und es war echt, ja, kaltes Wasser, würde ich mal sagen, weil es eine riesenmonsterhafte J2E irgendwie Applikation war. Ich meine, ich kannte Java, ich kannte auch Java so ausm Studium natürlich und und auch, weil ich mich mit Mobile Endlungen, mit J2ME damals son bisschen beschäftigt hatte, aber das war irgendwie so Monsterding und auch mit 'nem webbrowser, also also browserbasiertem Frontend, was auch superlaggy und langsam war. Aber genau, die Idee war irgendwie so S-Box, SDK, also dass halt dann Drittanbieter dort ihre Apps quasi ja alle draufsetzen können wie Mediatheken und die Idee war, dass das, ja, dann so als Alternativprodukt quasi auch für für für für andere Internetanschlüsse, also nicht providerabhängig sozusagen verkauft wird. Ja, und das wurde dann relativ schnell eingestellt und ja, auch natürlich son bisschen aus diesem interne Gedanken natürlich, weil auch Entertainment dann sich quasi gefestigt hat.\n\nUnd wir haben dann auch, das heißt IP TV, uns in diesem Web TV Bereich damals, das war zweitausendsieben, zweitausend, nee, zweitausendsechs sieben so. Wir haben 'n Videoportal gebaut, das war damals ja, PHP mit mit Frameworks und quo und 'nem 'nem Flashplayer, einen Videoportal zum Thema Webserien. Das war damals son bisschen so die Erkenntnis, hey, es gibt diese Videoinhalte im Internet, so zweitausendsechs, ne. Die sind im Durchschnitt drei Minuten lang. Hat sich auch geändert, würde heute auch keiner mehr irgendwie behaupten.\n\nUnd wir bauen da jetzt sozusagen auch mit Content Creatoren, also professionellen und auch ne guten Schauspielern, so dieses Web Serienformat, das ist so die Zukunft fürs Internet. Das heißt so Folgen, die so drei, vier Minuten lang sind, fünf Minuten und dann irgendwie zehn, zwanzig Folgen und dann so ja genau also Serienformate und da haben wir sozusagen dann son Webportal für gebaut, das hieß 3 Minute. Und genau und da hab ich dann, da gab's, sagen wir mal, einen sehr einschneidenden Moment. Ich weiß nicht, wie ihr damit fühlt zweitausendsieben, wo das erste iPhone aufn Markt kam. Und da ich da ja nun mal in der Telekom war, haben wir da relativ schnell an Tag eins halt das direkt zum US Launch auch in Deutschland dann das iPhone bekommen und das hat mich echt so völlig irgendwie begeistert.\n\nUnd da hab ich mich halt sozusagen eigentlich der Mobile Entwicklung zugewandt. Also ja, was ja auch erst mal nicht ging, ne. War ja irgendwie son halbes Jahr oder so, bis der App Store irgendwie rauskam. Ja. Über über die die Jillbreaks nur irgendwie möglich.\n\nDa habe ich mich das nur dann reingefuchst, aber dann, was ich schon letzten Endes gemacht habe, relativ schnell dann für dieses Videoportal 3 Minute quasi eine iPhone App gebaut. Das heißt also Videostreaming, so Content Discovery Suche und Co für diese Serien. Und wir haben natürlich auch so dann in der in der Nachfolgeversion dann ja diese Sachen genutzt wie Push Notifications und Co, irgendwie Leute auf neuen Content. Also 'n bisschen wie son Podcast Player eigentlich. Und das war ja, war damals so die erste iPhone App, die ich gebaut habe und auch witzigerweise die erste iPhone App, die die Deutsche Telekom also unter ihrem Namen releast hat.\n\nUnd ich weiß, dass das noch 'n Riesendrama war juristisch und ich dann in 'nem Call mit irgendwie Anwälten war und nur gehört habe, ey, das ist aber kalifornisches Recht. Das können wir nicht. Aber ja, das war dann so der Livegang der ersten ersten iPhone App der Deutschen Telekom.\n\nSpeaker 0: Spannend.\n\nSpeaker 2: War das war das mit der Grund, warum es dich nach der Deutschen Telekom nie mehr zu 'nem Großkonzern gezogen hat?\n\nSpeaker 1: Zunächst, ja. Zunächst, genau. Also ich hatte ja, also insbesondere wurde ja diese Innovationsgesellschaft auch während ich da war, so ganz langsam zurückintegriert in den Großkonzern. Also wir waren dann relativ schnell einfach in der Abteilung, nicht mal son Also wir waren vorher son unabhängige, ja, Entität mit auch allen Funktionen, die man so braucht, inklusive HR und so. Und das wurde dann relativ schnell während ich da war, hab ich gemerkt, okay, da gehen so die Fühler der des Großkonzerns immer mehr rein und irgendwann durften wir nicht mehr unsere schönen Rechner benutzen, die einfach im Netz waren mit Admin Rechten.\n\nUnd ja, das war schon, ja. Aber war eine super Zeit und ich finde auch insbesondere eine sehr lehrreiche Zeit am Anfang der Karriere, sich da einfach mal so neben dem so irgendwie Agenturbusiness, was vorher war mal son großes Konzern von innen zu sehen Ja. Mit all seiner Politik.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Nee, also iPhone Launch damals ist auf jeden Fall auch große Ding, was bei mir hängen geblieben ist. Das war gut bei mir noch relativ am Anfang vom Studium, aber hat dadurch natürlich dann auch mein mein weiteres Studium irgendwie stark beeinflusst und die Dinge, die ich danach dann getan habe, dann erst mal als iOS Entwickler zu arbeiten. Aber ja, man war halt einfach, genau, ich hatte wahrscheinlich nicht so nicht so schnell den Zugang wie Du damals dann zu dem Gerät, aber spätestens ab dem iPhone drei g.\n\nSpeaker 2: Also ich hab ja geschummelt. Mein erstes iPhone war ja 'n iPod Touch, weil ich mir auch keinen\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau.\n\nSpeaker 2: IPhone iPhone leisten konnte.\n\nSpeaker 1: Richtig. Aber ich\n\nSpeaker 2: war ja damals auch an der Uni und ich hab gedacht, na gut, an der Uni habe ich überall WLAN, zu Hause habe ich WLAN, dann tut's der iPoduch auch und das bisschen im Zug hin- und hergefahren, das kriege ich so mit Offline Musik und Podcastfolgen irgendwie überbrückt und so war war das mein Einstieg damals. Nicht ganz so dekadent wie bei Fabian hin, aber\n\nSpeaker 1: Nee, das war ja auch nicht funktional. Das war ja auch nicht mein persönliches Gerät, das war natürlich 'n Filmgerät, aber ich hab genau das auch gemacht und mir natürlich erst mal 'n iPad gekauft, weil das war ja auch das Einzige, was man ja in Deutschland dann letzten Endes bald relativ zügig kaufen konnte, so.\n\nSpeaker 2: Abgesehen davon waren ja auch damals, selbst wenn man das Glück hatte, ein iPhone zu bekommen, woher auch immer ich hab dann später auch reinzukommen, weil da waren ja mobile Daten auch noch exorbitant vorher. Das kannst Du heute auch keiner mehr vorstellen, dass ich für mein erstes Hundert Megabyte Paket fünfzehn Euro bezahlt hab, so.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich weiß noch, dass ich auch das erste iPhone, eigene iPhone, das war 'n iPhone drei g in Italien bestellt habe. Also das war, weil das hier in Deutschland, glaube ich, noch gelockt war oder so. Ja. Und dann, genau, hab ich das irgendwie irgendwie italienisches Album gehabt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ach schön.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Schön, schöne Zeit.\n\nSpeaker 0: Gute Zeit. Was war der Grund für dich, dass Du dann gesagt hast, tschüs, Deutsche Telekom?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ich mein, ich hab's irgendwie aufgezählt. Ich mein, ich feier dann doch irgendwie vier Jahre da auch 3 Minutes hat 'n Ende genommen. Mhm. Das ist, ich finde es aber megawichtig, weil ich finde gerade in, sagen wir mal so einmal so diesen kompletten Produkt lebensllebenszyklus Zyklus inklusive Sunset irgendwie mitzumachen, ist schon spannend. Nein, auch traurig natürlich, wenn man halt irgendwie mehrere Jahre irgendwie die Arbeit irgendwo reinsteckt, aber ich weiß noch, wie ich dann wirklich so den letzten App Release hochgeladen habe, der dann nur noch son son son View Controller hat.\n\nIch bin damals, weil der so tschüs angezeigt hat. Und man konnte ja quasi Apps nicht löschen, also von den Geräten der User. Mhm. Und und ja, genau. Und dann gab's noch so ein, zwei Projekte, die irgendwie ganz cool waren.\n\nFür den Programmmanager zum Beispiel, da hab ich eine App mitgearbeitet. Es war diese App, wo man halt den diese Box von unterwegs irgendwie programmieren konnte, dass irgendwas aufnimmt. Genau, aber dann dann war irgendwie so die Luft raus und ich hatte dann doch irgendwie das Bedürfnis, so mich mit dieser aufkommenden Start up Welt in Berlin zu beschäftigen und bin erst mal Freiberufler geworden und hab dann eigentlich so das, was ich jetzt da so ja gelernt habe und es war jetzt schon super cool die Zeit ja bis hierhin gekommen, gerade so Schulung oder so was, ne. Das hat man natürlich echt super bekommen. Ich hab damals eben so Scrum Schulungen gemacht.\n\nIch glaube echt viele so Scrum Master, Product Owner, Advanced eins, zwei, drei und das direkt zu unserem Team irgendwie versucht, also also das gesamte Team hat das gemacht an angewendet. Natürlich waren wir irgendwie son bisschen so 'ner so 'ner so 'ner so 'ner Bubble innerhalb dieses Konzerns, was auch nicht so richtig Sinn der Sache ist, aber so das alles was ich da so gelernt habe, so Mobile Entwicklung, aber eben auch diese Prozesszeit, ich war irgendwie Product Owner auch in der Rolle für dieses Videoportal teilweise, habe ich dann letzten Endes mit in meine Freiberuflichkeit genommen und dann diverse kleine und mittelgroße Projekte gemacht, App Projekte, so Konzept Consulting Projekte, aber auch so, ja, Agile Coaching würde man heute sagen. Ja, genau, und das war dann son bisschen so diese Zeit, bis dann ich zweitausendvierzehn dann auch über diese Freiberuflichkeit letzten Endes zu Kitchen Stories, ja, gekommen bin.\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Was ja dann eigentlich wirklich so mein erster richtiger CTO Job war mit allen Gedöns, was dazugehört. Und\n\nSpeaker 2: Jetzt müssen wir Kitchen Stories, glaube ich, noch mal vorstellen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, Kitchen Stories.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Egal, erst mal fragen, ob für Fabian das selbstverständlich ist, dass jeder deutsche Kitchen Stories kennt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wahrscheinlich nicht. Ich weiß, ihr habt ja den Tim von Chefkoch hier gehabt, der der der ist, willst Du dir gesagt, mit dem bin ich zur Schule gegangen. Also wir kennen uns von früher.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ah, okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und der muss, glaube ich, Chefkoch nicht erklären. Kitchen Stories geht natürlich schon in eine ähnliche Richtung, hat so schon einen anderen Schwerpunkt. Klar, geht's Kochen, wie der Name sagt. Und und so über so dieses reine Rezept hinaus hat Kitchen Storys gerade so das Thema, so sehr früh haben wir so das Thema Videoinhalte, Anleitungen das Ganze sehr interaktiv gemacht. Punkt eins Unterschied und Punkt zwei, ich mein, Deutschland ist zwar so mit der größte Markt, aber Kitchen Stories ist sehr schnell international quasi gegangen.\n\nKann ich leider noch kurz das zu erzählen, also zwölf Sprachen. Irgendwie haben wir haben wir inklusive Chinesisch gemacht unsere Inhalte. Also es war son bisschen, es ist so die Mischung aus Editorial, also Inhalten, die wir selber eigens produziert haben, muss man so sagen, wirklich in unserem Büro in 'ner\n\nSpeaker 2: Küche Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mit Videos, Fotos und und und Köchen. Und dann das zweite Standbein ist so die Community, wie's halt eben auch bei Chefkoch ist, aber international. Also da haben wir dann so, ja, letzten Endes Community Rezept, aber auch so diese typischen Community Features. Also, okay, ich geborene's immer noch, ich red jetzt in der Vergangenheit, wie, ja, irgendwie kommentieren, sich gegenseitig folgen, liken und, ja Rezepte selber einstellen und solche Geschichten dann quasi auf das internationale Level gebracht. Und ja, das ist halt so eine Art Kochanleitung Community unter dem Namen Anyone Can Cook.\n\nJa. Genau. Das ist eigentlich cool zusammengefasst. Kitchen Stories ist es aber auch natürlich erst über die Zeit zu dem geworden, sozusagen, was es was es was es dann jetzt ist.\n\nSpeaker 2: Was hat das für dich damals interessant gemacht? Weil also wenn man jetzt natürlich aus soner sehr technischen Ecke schon kommt, ja? Und auch jetzt bei der bei der Telekom, ich mein, heute lächeln wir vielleicht son bisschen drüber, aber ja schon son bisschen an der an der Vorfront des Internets sozusagen mit unterwegs war mit dem, was ihr da gemacht habt, ja? Ja. Also so IP TV, die ersten iPhone Apps und so was, ja.\n\nUnd dann kommt jemand, sagt so, hey, ich hab hier son, ich hab hier son Kochbuch, so. Ja, genau. Brauch nicht dafür, so, ja. Wie wie überzeugt man dann jemanden?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, das war echt witzig, weil mir ging's ehrlich gesagt selber genauso, wie Du gerade gesagt hast so, ne. Also ich war ja auch meine ersten Monate Greenancer, ich hab das erst mal so, ich mein, die hatten auch noch kein Geld oder nicht viel Geld, jetzt irgendwie Leute wirklich einzustellen und so. Aber ich hab 'n, ja, letzten Endes, so dieses digitale Kochbuch war ja auch schon da, ne. Es war jetzt nichts sozusagen Neues von der Idee her. Was ich aber einfach gemerkt habe, dann wirklich in der eigentlichen Zusammenarbeit, ich hab's jetzt erst mal so als Projekt gesehen, aber dass es schon Potenzial hat für für für Innovation Und einfach, das Team war einfach super.\n\nAlso das das das kann ich nach wie vor sagen, insbesondere die beiden Gründerinnen, wo ich halt gemerkt habe, okay, da ist so viel, ja Drive dahinter, das ist irgendwie, es funktioniert einfach wahnsinnig gut mit der Zusammenarbeit, sodass ich dann mich dann nach drei Monaten, vier Monaten dann quasi committet habe, quasi dann mit einzusteigen als CTO, als erster Festangestellter. Ich weiß noch, dass die irgendwie so mir erzählt haben dann im Nachhinein, dass die dann irgendwie keinen Arbeitsvertrag hatten und irgendwie von 'nem Freund von Rocket Internet irgendwie den Arbeitsvertrag einmal Copy Paste gemacht haben. Und ja, und dann hat mich dann doch irgendwie gab's in diesem Bereich dann, ich hatte jetzt kein Deep Tech krasses Problem so, aber es war dann doch irgendwie spannend. Gerade so im Technischen sind wir halt auf diese ganzen neuen Plattformen gegangen. Wir haben halt von Anfang an, glaube ich, hatten wir eine supergute Relationship mit Apple.\n\nIch glaube, weil wir auch son typisches, ja, Apple Like Produkt waren, also die sind ja immer so, ja, wo halt irgendwie so dieses Tool den Content trifft, ne. Wo halt dann auch diese Glossy Bilder und Videos irgendwie sind. Ich glaub, da war haben wir son Nerv getroffen bei denen. Also dass wir irgendwie so dauergefeatured waren überall. Und dann wurden wir natürlich immer auch eingeladen, irgendwie zu diesen, ja, Events und beziehungsweise dann auch so private Session.\n\nAlso ich bin, glaub ich, zwei oder dreimal nach Cupertino geflogen. Kann ich, glaube ich, jetzt auch drüber reden, zehn über zehn Jahre später. Ja, also zum Beispiel direkt nach der Vorstellung der Apple Watch, ne, wurden wir dann also nach Cupertino in son Raum ohne Fenster geladen und sollten dann auf diesen halbfertigen, wirklich muss man sagen, halbfertigen System halt oder konnten, ne. Es war ja eine eine Durften. Durften, ne genau.\n\nOpportunity, genau. Halt eine Watch App bauen. Und ich weiß, dass also zweimal am Tag kam dann irgendwie einen Apple Entwickler mit 'nem frischen USB Stick mit 'ner neuen EX Code Beta Version, der irgendwie die Bugs, die wir gefunden haben, die wir, die dann gefixt wurden. Also das, ja, das war halt dann irgendwie so das Spannende kam dann, auch wenn vielleicht das Thema irgendwie so, ja, Kochbuch. Aber ich glaube, ja, wir sind dann einfach sehr schnell so Multiplattform.\n\nWir haben halt, also ich hab ja auch hauptsächlich getrieben durch mich dann, wo ich dann gedacht war, ey, wo können wir dieses Produkt platzieren, sind wir natürlich Android in die TVs reingegangen. Wir haben irgendwie eine Kooperation mit Samsung gemacht, dass wir da vorinstalliert waren auf Smart TVs. Und dieses Produkt, was ja auch sehr videolastig wieder war, was ja auch son bisschen wieder zurückgeht in das, was ich vorher gemacht hatte, war dann irgendwie so auf Augenhöhe irgendwie mit diesen Mediatheken und Co überall so auf diesen ganzen Firesticks und und Co. Und das das war dann irgendwie schon schon spannend, da halt so in alle diese Softwarestacks irgendwie reinzuschnuppern. Und genau und Das heißt auch.\n\nIm Backend. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wenn damals Apple das so spannend fand und so die Zeit zweitausendvierzehn, dann war das wahrscheinlich nativ iOS Entwicklung dann oder?\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, das war nativ iOS Entwicklung. Damals gab's ja auch jetzt, abgesehen von irgendwelchen Webgeschichten, nicht viel, was schön aussieht, was jetzt heute wie Flatter zum Beispiel heute ist. Und jede dieser Apps, die ich grade beschrieben hab, war natürlich auch eine native App. Also das, ja. Und ja, und das ist schon, muss ich wirklich sagen, gerade die Anfangszeit war wirklich schon eine wilde Zeit so im CDO Dasein.\n\nDas war erstens natürlich so, dass, hey, ich bin neu in 'nem Job. Und natürlich hat man, bringt man irgendwie so einen Teil, bringt man irgendwie mit. Das ist so diese Tech Erfahrung, ne. Ich würd sagen, jeder, der irgendwie so zumindest ein oder zwei Stacks einmal so richtig professionell irgendwie gemacht hat, kann dann auch relativ schnell oder ist irgendwie in diesem Seniority Level, das ist so eine Voraussetzung, dann kann man halt so sein Wissen relativ zügig planen, sich neue Sachen irgendwie aneignen. Für mich so eine Grundvoraussetzung auch für diese Lead Rolle, für diese Tech Lead Rolle.\n\nUnd dazu kam dann halt, ja, letzten Endes dann auf einmal, ja, so Entscheidung, okay, bauen wir jetzt Personal auf. Wir mussten dann zeitweise auch wieder der Personal abbauen, also so irgendwie Achterbahnfahrt, wirklich vor auch wirklich schwierigen Entscheidungen, weil ich meine, es war halt einfach von der Finanzierung und hat sich dann so so durch die Finanzierungsrunden irgendwie gehangelt und ich wusste dann ja auch, ich war ja auch Teil des Managementteams, unser Geld reicht noch bis Mai. So. Was machen wir jetzt? Und okay, wir könnten jetzt überlegen, wie kriegen wir das noch bis in den Herbst, weil das saisonal irgendwie besser ist?\n\nUnd das war natürlich dann schon noch mal dieser Ballast an, sagen wir mal Aufgaben und Verantwortung und auch, ich nenn's mal kaltes Wasser, was was wirklich so dazu kam, wo man glaube ich, wo ich persönlich, ich als CTO, glaube ich, wirklich dann noch mal wahnsinnig gewachsen bin. Also durch diese, ja, Situation und klar, waren's dann irgendwie auch schwere Entscheidungen wie Kündigung im Team mit Leuten, die man irgendwie einfach sehr gerne mag und mit denen man gut zusammenarbeitet oder halt, ja, irgendwie Leute einstellen und und in dieser Achterbahn haben wir uns son bisschen gefunden, wiedergefunden. Und ich hab am Anfang sozusagen die Entscheidung sehr bewusst getroffen, weil wir ja son bisschen so Mobile first waren wir ja so im ersten Jahr, ersten anderthalb Jahre. Wir machen kein Backend. Wir machen nur Mobile und dann, ich weiß nicht, ob ihr euch erinnert, ich hab nämlich auf gesetzt.\n\nIch weiß nicht, wie ihr Pass noch kennt, das ist son Backend as a Service. Ja. Von wurde, glaub ich, von von von Facebook dann immer gekauft. Und ja, und wir haben halt, und ich mein, das wär auch, würd ich, glaub ich, die Entscheidung wieder so treffen, grade wenn man irgendwie in sonem Flux noch ist, das Produkt quasi und auch das Geschäftsmodell in in der Zeit über bei Kitschesteug noch sehr im Flux und es hat sich sehr viel immer sehr schnell geändert. Und da ja, irgendwie hatten wir auch so featureseitig und auch so so sagen wir mal das Domain Model quasi auch eher flexibel gehalten.\n\nUnd insofern hab hab ich die Entscheidung getroffen, dass wir am Anfang nur Mobileentwickler quasi einstellen, die dann aber eben, ne, Pars hatte dann son SEC und einen Webkonfiguration sozusagen, son bisschen die Datenstruktur irgendwie festzulegen, aber eigentlich son bisschen wie's Firebase heute macht, ne. Mhm. Genau und das das da haben wir dann relativ lange durchgehalten und auch wirklich große nutzenden Zahlen über abgefackelt. Als wir international gingen und dann wirklich auch so diese Apple featurings irgendwie hatten und so, haben wir dann irgendwann mit, mit dem Team, es wurd Krisentelefonate gehabt, weil wir dann, das hat sich irgendwie auch rausgestellt, dass wir eine der größten Installationen irgendwie von diesem Pars System irgendwie waren. Und ja, aber dann, ich glaub rückblickend sozusagen, wir haben dann an dem Punkt sozusagen entschieden, an irgend 'nem Punkt entschieden, okay, jetzt ist irgendwie so alles so gefestigt und auch finanziell, dass wir quasi jetzt uns 'n eigenes Backend irgendwie bauen können.\n\nUnd dann haben wir da relativ straight forward dann mit irgendwie Python und und und Django, sone gesunde Mischung aus, glaub ich, auch viele haben so Monolithen, aber dann einfach noch einige so kleinere Service, zehn, fünfzehn irgendwie außen rum, das dann quasi im laufenden Betrieb dann migriert, zumal es passt dann irgendwann hinaus, dass ich den Betrieb einstellen, was schon ganz gut am\n\nSpeaker 2: Wahrscheinlich direkt, nachdem ihr gekündigt habt so, ja okay, jetzt jetzt\n\nSpeaker 1: Nee, unser Teil der weggeworden. Runter. Wir hatten die die Entwickler, aber wir mussten uns dann doch noch mehr beeilen. Und ja, und das war dann, ja, aber eine gute und richtige Entscheidung letzten Endes.\n\nSpeaker 2: Du hast ja grade so diverse Unsicherheiten auch angesprochen, ne, und wie ihr euch da so eingependelt habt zwischen 'n bisschen Wachstum und 'n bisschen, ich sag mal, konservativeren Phasen vielleicht auch, ja. Und gleichzeitig wart ihr ja relativ früh in diesem Multiplattformspiel so unterwegs. Mhm. Wie nimmt man das dann wahr, wenn man ja quasi auf der einen Seite so seine eigene Story hier schreiben will und auf der anderen Seite ja auch so eigentlich nur 'n Spielball von ganz großen anderen Playern ist, ja. Also ähnlich wie bei uns ja auch, aber grade, wenn man sich noch enger an diese Plattform bindet, ja.\n\nHier son son Deal mit Samsung, da auf den TVs zu sein, ja. Dann irgendwie hier mit Apple ganz dicke irgendwie zu sein. Und das das hat ja alles Licht- und Schattenseiten.\n\nSpeaker 1: Na ja, das hat ja, natürlich irgendwie gewisse gewisse Abhängigkeiten, Klumpenrisiko, was das Geschäft anbelangt. Dass, ich meine, wir haben also uns, sag ich mal, der ersten Hälfte meiner Anwesenheit eher sozusagen so ums Wachstum gekümmert, ums reine Nutzerwachstum. Das war schon auch gut und sinnvoll erst mal zu sagen, okay, wir wir bauen irgendwie so die Brand auf, so die Markenbekanntheit. Ist ja international auch wirklich echt nicht so leicht. Und da wars natürlich irgendwie schon so Mittel zum Zweck und irgendwie ja auch technologisch, wenn Du da 'n Team hast und davon waren halt einige irgendwie irgendwie iOS Entwickler und ich glaub in vielen, zumindest damals iOS Entwickler ist ja auch immer son bisschen Apple Fanboy, Fangirl, war's ja auch cool, dann irgendwie den neuesten, eigentlich mit jedem iOS Update wieder den neuesten Zeug im September irgendwie live zu haben, ne, mit den neuesten Features, SDK Features.\n\nEy, das ist heute überhaupt nicht mehr so. Das wird heute, glaube ich, eine wesentlich untergeordnete Rolle, aber ich glaube, wir haben diese Welle irgendwie ganz gut mitgenommen damals, sozusagen für sozusagen, wie Wachstum zu sorgen. Aber dann sozusagen beim Geschäft, zumindest sozusagen, also wir waren ja kein BTC Premium Produkt, was auch relativ schwierig ist in diesem Rezeptumfeld, weil Rezepte ja irgendwie given und for free sind so, haben wir halt ja, uns die zweite Hälfte sozusagen eher eher ums ums ums ums Geschäft gekümmert, dann nachhaltig wirklich auch auf der Revenue Seite zu wachsen und das ist, dazu war jetzt Apple keine supergroße Hilfe. Und und so die Abhängigkeit von diesen Großen, die Du eben beschrieben hast, sondern ich glaub, das hat uns genützt und ja, insbesondere dann, also was ja dann eigentlich so das größte, der Ritterschlag war ja dann der Apple Design Award, den wir gewonnen haben und und auch mit einem Überraschungsbesuch von Tim Cook verbunden, was irgendwie auch ganz witzig war. Und einfach nette Erfahrungen auch irgendwie motivierend fürs Team.\n\nSpeaker 0: Absolut. Wie viel hast Du in dieser Zeit denn selbst noch Hand angelegt oder warst Du da schon komplett nur managt, managet unterwegs?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich hab schon natürlich, am Anfang hab ich quasi alles gemacht und je mehr Team da war, ich quasi einstellen konnte, desto mehr, ja, hab ich dann ja letztens auch abgegeben. Ich meine, das ist, glaube ich, auch noch mal für alle City Oster draußen dieser, wenn man sozusagen wirklich von der Gründungsphase dabei ist, so ist schon einen ganz wichtiger Punkt dieses Loslassen. Gerade wenn das Team da ist, einem wirklich klar zu werden, was ist eigentlich meine Rolle jetzt? Und das ist in sonem ständigen Wechsel und es kann auch schmerzhaft sein. Genau, also ich hab dann eigentlich so ab, ja, ich hab mich dann immer mehr eigentlich so aus dem Code rausgezogen.\n\nAuch, ich meine, ich hab dann quasi am gegen Ende bei Kitchen Stories sozusagen auch so das Thema Product Management, Design und und und Data Analytics übernommen. Die Gründerin ist dann quasi in Mutterschutz gegangen und ich hab ihre Teams übernommen und was dann auch so geblieben ist, als sie wiederkamen, sodass ich dann eigentlich schon son bisschen CPT0 war in dem Unternehmen und da ist dann wirklich schon die Zeit wirklich 'n Code mitzuwühlen. Also ich glaube, ja, das die ist dann einfach auch nicht mehr da. Also dann ist man wirklich eher strategisch und ich meine, viel der Arbeit jetzt bei mir als CDO war schon wirklich im Management Circle entscheiden, wo geht's mit der Firma hin, was machen wir jetzt eigentlich, irgendwie abzuwägen Und zu diesem Tech irgendwie Verantwortung kommt ja dann auch wirklich eine Gesamtmitverantwortung über die Firma und eben auch eine Personalverantwortung dazu, ne. Also wirklich zu schauen, geht's den Leuten gut?\n\nWie wie es aber auch steht so dieses Firmenbedürfnisse gegenüber dem Personal irgendwie? Das war ja sehr immer sehr auf Kante bei Kitchen Stories. Mhm. Und und genau, also das war dann schon eher irgendwie meine Aufgabe und der Code, der hat eigentlich seitdem bei mir son bisschen nachgelassen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Wie hast Du's in der Zeit dann aber trotzdem geschafft, als Teil von deiner technischen Verantwortung son bisschen im aktuellen zu bleiben, ja? Weil natürlich durch tägliche Arbeit, das ist so der eine Weg, ja. Und je je weiter man sich dann so vom Coach und vom Produkt entfernt, muss man ja trotzdem andere Wege finden, zu schauen, ne, was sind so neue Patterns, die da so Emergen, was sind Best Practices, was sind vielleicht 'n 'n interessantes Framework oder was Was\n\nSpeaker 0: gab's die Programmier oder noch nicht?\n\nSpeaker 2: Damals gab's die Programmierer schon. Kommt drauf an, ja. Also So zum Ende hin gab's die schon, so. Ja. Aber aber trotz, also ne, unabhängig von der Programmierer, wie hast Du es geschafft?\n\nSpeaker 1: Wie hab ich das geschafft? Ich hab angefangen, mich privat mit bestimmten Dingen zu beschäftigen. Ich hab gelesen, also es hat ja dann auch 'n Einfluss auf die Arbeit. Ich hab trotzdem jetzt, was meine meine Homiesacks betrifft irgendwie irgendwie geguckt, was passiert. Also ich klar, die Praxis, das ist natürlich das Ding, was was einem dann irgendwie fehlt.\n\nNichtsdestotrotz glaube ich, wenn man einmal sowieso in 'nem Stack irgendwie zu Hause war, geht einem das auch nicht verloren, ne. Also, weil diese diese neuesten Veränderungen sind ja meistens zumindest nur inkrementelle Updates, die jetzt nicht quasi ja komplett Dinge aufn aufn aufn aufn Kopf stellen, sodass man dann irgendwie irgendwie gar nicht mehr zurechtkommt. Und ich meine sowas wie die Transition von Objective Sea zu Swift haben wir da hab ich natürlich mitgemacht. Irgendwie das Gleiche bei Kotelyn. Ja, also das, irgendwie hat man dann ja auch Erfahrungen gesammelt über die Zeit, die die einen, ja, ja.\n\nAber ich ich stimme dir zu, dass es schon wichtig ist, also kontinuierlich quasi diese, Fortzone son bisschen zu verlassen und seine Fühle auszustrecken und zu gucken, okay, wie kann ich mich eigentlich, wie bleibe ich eigentlich am Tag der Zeit? Das ist schon wichtig, nicht stehen zu bleiben, ne. Da geborene ich dir schon schon recht auf jeden Fall.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ich würd's sogar vielleicht leicht andersrum formulieren. Also ich glaube, meine Erfahrungen sind die heute wieder sprechen, aber man man kommt überhaupt nur in diese Position wie bei dir, ob das jetzt so CTO, Teamlead, CTO, wie auch immer ist, wenn man sowieso schon der Typ ist, der halt sich kontinuierlich irgendwie weiterbildet Ja. Und so am Laufenden bleibt, ja. Und die einzige Challenge später, wenn dir halt son bisschen der Praxisbezug fehlt, ist halt da son alternativen Channel dafür zu finden. Aber dieses dieses Mindset, das musst Du, glaub ich, so oder so schon haben.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Das stimmt, das stimmt, ja. Und ich meine jetzt, ich meine, wenn wir jetzt sozusagen zu meinem nächsten Job gehen, was 7 meint, wo ich sozusagen schon eher, sagen wir mal, als Manager reingekommen bin und gar nicht erst wie jetzt bei, wie bei wie bei Kitchen Stories quasi mit, also die erste Zeile Code quasi geschrieben habe und verbockt habe. Da, spätestens da war's dann auch wirklich notwendig für mich und da hab ich halt wirklich auch angefangen, wirklich noch mal eigene private Projekte irgendwie zu machen, ja, meinen Wissensdurst, den ich ja, wie Du ihn auch richtig beschrieben hast, den man, den ich, glaub ich, in mir habe, den, glaub ich, viele so in, ja, so als Voraussetzung haben, irgendwie zu stillen. Und ja, das das ja auch jetzt eben, weiß nicht, seit ein, zwei Jahren oder seit zwei Jahren dieses ganze AI Thema, ne.\n\nAlso auch wenn man's nur bedingt vielleicht in der aktuellen Firma anwenden kann oder vielleicht auch brutal, aber ich mein, ganz viele haben sich ja sehr privat auch irgendwie damit beschäftigt und und und und irgendwie geschaut, welche Probleme kann das irgendwie alles auch im privaten Umfeld lösen, ne.\n\nSpeaker 2: Du sprichst da was ganz Spannendes an, dieser dieser Jobwechsel. Und Du hast es ja gesagt, bei Kitchen Storys warst Du relativ früh mit dabei. Und viel von dem, was man später ja auch in soner Managementrolle braucht, profitiert ja davon, ne. Du Du kennst die Leute, Du kennst die Kultur, Du kennst die Geschichte, Du kennst vielleicht auch so Zusammenhänge zwischen den Zeilen und so was alles, ja. Das hilft dir son bisschen, dich da auf dem Parkett zu bewegen.\n\nMhm. Wie war das für dich dann, zu 7 Mind zu kommen, die ja schon, ich weiß nicht, ich glaub son paar Jahre älter dann waren zu dem Zeitpunkt quasi schon?\n\nSpeaker 1: Fünf Jahre alt. Und und\n\nSpeaker 2: und und wo dann ja quasi diese ganze Vorerfahrung gefehlt hat, aber trotzdem denselben Job machen musstest. Wie hast Du das aufgeholt sozusagen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, das ist das ist, ja, also man hat natürlich die Gespräche mit den den Mitarbeitenden, die sozusagen dageblieben sind, beziehungsweise ich hab auch natürlich viel mit dem ehemaligen City auch noch gesprochen. Und baut sich dann natürlich sone Vergangenheit, sone sone sone sone sone imaginäre Vergangenheit im Kopf auf, wieso ist das eigentlich so, wie es ist? Und was ist eigentlich vorher passiert? Aber im Grunde ist ja schon mit die Aufgabe, klar, das ist son bisschen Voraussetzung, aber aber ist ja schon auch meine Aufgabe als CTO dann aufgrund dessen eher nach vorne zu blicken. Und deswegen also man akzeptiert Dinge, wie sie sind.\n\nMan muss natürlich auch und das war bei mir so, dass bei 7 mind, quasi wie das auch manchmal dann so ist, der CTO geht und auch Teile des Teams gehen dann, also bin ich sozusagen sehr stark erst mal so in dieses Hiring und Aufbauarbeit reingegangen und wie das dann auch so oft ist, dass dann sozusagen bestimmte Surfferkomponenten an bestimmten Leuten hängen,\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Haben wir dann, ne, er sagt ja auch die Theorie, quasi mit dem neuen Team dann auch entsprechend quasi bestimmte Komponenten dann halt neu, genau, und und und sozusagen ersetzt, ja, eben dieses Blick nach vorne. Wenn ich jetzt auf die Firma gucke, okay Vergangenheit, sozusagen altes Team, Zukunft neues Team. Klar, die Deal natürlich im Sinne der der Tech Web mit bestimmten Sachen, aber ja, man man baut ja letzten Endes mit neuen Leuten auch neue Dinge auf und das das war sozusagen meine Aufgabe.\n\nSpeaker 0: Im Wechsel von Catching Stories zu Subemind, Gab es Dinge, wo Du, die Du, die Du klar anders machen wolltest? Also ich mein, Du hast natürlich irgendwie trotzdem Catchen Stories stark mit beeinflusst, aber hast Du dann irgendwie gesagt so, wenn ich das vermeiden kann oder wenn ich das anders machen können, dann dann würde ich das gerne jetzt, also diesen Punkt, anders machen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Ja, also ich war natürlich sozusagen nicht so tief involviert. Also ich hatte bei Kitcher Stories dann teilweise wirklich das Problem so zwischen dieser Tiefe und dem sozusagen dem ganzen Management teil. Und ich hab bei Sevenmann, ich war son bisschen wirklich mehr Manager. Also das war schon auch eine bewusste Entscheidung zu sagen, okay, jetzt bin ich einfach mehr Manager.\n\nDas hab ich gesucht. Ich wollte wirklich noch mal der CPTO Rolle quasi Raum geben, ne. Mhm. Und mich insbesondere diesen Produkt teil. Und deswegen also son bisschen die Tiefe, damit meine ich jetzt die Tech Tiefe, die, das war eine bewusste Entscheidung, das anders sozusagen anzugehen und und son bisschen dieses High Level, was son bisschen mehr Richtung General Management dann auch geht, ja anzueignen.\n\nUnd ja, und dann, ich mein klar, man hat natürlich irgendwie auch Fehler gemacht, aus denen man lernt, dass ja sowieso, also ich kann nur jedem empfehlen, Dinge ausprobieren, so die Komfortzone zu verlassen und damit halt zu failen, weil das ist halt wirklich so das Beste, wo man halt wirklich lernt und keine Ahnung. Ich hab halt, ja, am Anfang früher total behiring, ne. Mhm. Ging's halt wahrscheinlich irgendwie in meiner Naivität damals schon mir persönlich natürlich, hey, ich behir jetzt hier 'n großes Team. Mir dann natürlich wenig, weniger Gedanken gemacht irgendwie, ich mein, das war auch son bisschen die Budgetseite so, okay, wie Senior sind die Leute jetzt eigentlich?\n\nUnd genau, was er meint, war dann war dann natürlich auch, ich mein dann dieses Geschäft war gefestigt, eine profitable Firma, quo. Ja, das ist dann so Learning für mich, okay, ich stell lieber eine Senior Person ein, als jetzt zwei Juniors, so. Klar, es hängt immer von der von der Situation ab, wo man sich gerade darin befindet, also mit der Firma auch, aber wirklich noch mal dieses Hiring son bisschen mehr auf das wirkliche, ne, irgendwie Talent da draußen, wie findet man gute Leute, was wie findet man sozusagen auch Leute, die die die die man dann auch irgendwie langfristig halten will? Und genau, das glaube ich, war son son Erkenntnis, dass ich dann schon teilweise bei Catchen zwei ist am Anfang relativ naiv und schnell da, ja, 'n Team zusammengestellt habe. Ohne auch so diese theoretischen, ja, Gefüge wie Team Topologies und so weiter, was ich mir dann aber auch auch eher über die Zeit dann angelesen habe, ne.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hui. Jetzt\n\nSpeaker 0: zur Aufnahme der Folge hast Du uns verraten, dass Du nicht mehr CPO der bist. Und zu Beginn hast Du, also nicht zu Beginn, sondern zu Beginn des Jobs hast Du gesagt, okay, da wolltest Du noch mal eine neue Herausforderung und bist explizit da ins Management gegangen. Hat dir das da nicht so gefallen oder warum, was was wird, wirst Du in Zukunft tun? In welchem Bereich wirst Du unterwegs sein?\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, also ich bin jetzt eigentlich seit Ende letzten Jahres, genau, hab ich die Firma verlassen, vielleicht son bisschen zur Hintergrund. Also wir haben Anfang letzten Jahres die Firma verkauft an Jimondo. Es gab sozusagen dann natürlich, wie das dann so ist, so relativ viele Veränderungen, die quasi, ja, so Thema Integration und Co. Ich meinerseits habe mich dann 'n paar Monate quasi rausgezogen. Ich hab Elternzeit genommen, mich auf die Familie konnte.\n\nIch hab drei Kinder und die Herausforderung gehabt, dass ich einen Schulwechsel Gymnasium, eine im Sommer eine Einschulung und noch eine eingewöhner Kita quasi zu managen hatte und entsprechende Elternzeit genommen. Und die Zeit hab ich dann auch, sagen wir mal, gut vorbereitet. Ich hab mit meinem Team quasi so natürlich meine Abwesenheit geplant und dann letzten Endes in dieser Zeit mir natürlich selber auch noch mal Gedanken gemacht würden, welche Richtung will ich eigentlich hin? Und ich war ja jetzt über dreieinhalb Jahre aus 'ner CPDO, weiß 7 mind. Ja.\n\nUnd ja, und die Erkenntnis dann doch wieder, hey, irgendwie dann doch wieder mehr Hands on. Weil ich mein, es war immer interessant, wirklich diese diese, sagen wir mal, fast reine Managementrolle irgendwie zwischen Production und Tech, die ich auch für sehr sinnvoll erachte. Aber ich kann mir durchaus sozusagen jetzt für die Zeit und ich hab jetzt auch schon so wieder 'n Softwareprojekt irgendwie gemacht mit 'ner Bekannten, wirklich noch mal wieder ja, dann doch wieder zu dem zu gehen, was wo ich, sagen wir mal, am Ende des Tages irgendwie rausgehe und sehe, okay, das ist das, was ich jetzt heute geschafft habe, da kann ich irgendwie drauf stolz sein, das ist irgendwie mein Pull Request, das ist mein mein, sagen wir mal Delirable, was man irgendwie anfassen kann. Und das ist so bei Management ja irgendwie son bisschen so dieses Und das hat schon, war schon sehr übermaßt, grade so diese Politik der Firmenübernahme, wo es dann halt wieder, wie ich's ne, eben mit der Telekom angesprochen habe, ne. Wenn dieses Politikspiel irgendwie losgeht, dann dann geht man irgendwie aus dem Tag raus mit so, okay, was hab ich denn jetzt eigentlich heute bewegt, ne.\n\nIst irgendwie eher langsam, man schubst Dinge an. Und ich glaube, da suche ich jetzt für mich persönlich auch wieder was, wo ich aus dem Tag rausgehe und sehe, ey, da hab ich irgendwie was gebaut, was auch immer es sein. Und ich suche, also ich bin da gar nicht so festgelegt jetzt auf, was weiß ich Engineering Leadership oder auch Product Leadership, aber zumindest was, wo ich in den Gestaltungsraum habe und auch sehe, okay, das will ich irgendwie bauen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Genau.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, versprechen wir uns ja dann in fünf Jahren noch mal und schauen, was er dann gebaut hat.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, absolut.\n\nSpeaker 1: Sehr schön. Ja, sehr gerne.\n\nSpeaker 0: Einmal gerne noch kurz auch so, weil CPTO ist, glaub ich, was, was man immer mehr auch sieht als als Rollenbezeichnung, wo dann Product Management und eben die die technische Verantwortung irgendwie einhergeht. Ich mein, Du hast es jetzt auch dann ja erste, also okay, Du hast gesagt, bei Kitchen Stories kam es durch die durch die Elternzeit der Gründerin,\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Dass Du das mit übernommen hast. Wie ist so dein Take dazu? Also sollten das viele Firmen machen, kommt sehr drauf daran an, wie die Firma strukturiert ist. Hältst Du viel von dem Gemischten aus CPTO? Was ist son bisschen dein dein Take zu dieser Rolle?\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhm. Also ich kann gar nicht ultimativ sagen, ob das jetzt sinnvoll ist oder nicht sinnvoll ist. Es hat durchaus Vorteile. Das ist, ist ja oft so aus dem Erwachsen, dass so da Reibung stattfindet zwischen, sagen wir, den, der CPO oder der Head of Product versus CTO und ne Head of Engineering, dass da ja oft so, sagen wir mal, starke Interessenkonflikte irgendwie stattfinden, ne. Son bisschen dieses okay, der eine ist sehr auf sagen wir KPIs und und und und Erfolg fokussiert und der und der technische Gegenpart mehr auf wirklich Scalability und Co.\n\nUnd wenn es sozusagen und das hab ich schon öfter gesehen, das war zum Beispiel auch der Fall bei Step Mind, bevor ich kam, dass es so zu 'nem sehr großen Grat hat, diese Reibung gab zwischen diesen beiden Rollen, was die Zukunft der Firma betrifft Und da eine Zusammenarbeit, die, wenn er auf den hohen Level, die irgendwie schlecht ist, dann halt auch so runter runtergeht. Und so war natürlich besser für meine persönliche Aufgabe, diese Teams zusammenzubringen. Also dass der Produktmanager ordentlich kommuniziert mit dem mit dem Entwickler und umgekehrt, dass der Designer immer mit dabei ist und das sozusagen im Kleinen, also dort, wo ja wirklich dann Innovation stattfinden soll in diesen Teams, die ja eigentlich unterschiedlich, ne, man sagt ja immer so der Her Crossfunktion der Teams, ne, aber da ist ja die Zusammenarbeit der Schlüssel eigentlich der Zusammenarbeit. Und da war natürlich meine Aufgabe sozusagen die Teams zu allein, aber dieser innere Konflikt, also der der Konflikt, der der ist natürlich dann so im, findet dann natürlich in meinem Kopf statt so, ne. Ich hab natürlich auch dann, bin auch hin- und hergerissen zwischen, hey, hier große Visionen, wo geht's hin?\n\nUnd dann der CTO, der in meinem Kopf dann sagt, oh, wieso lässt denn alles gentechnisch so. Und aber ich glaube sozusagen fürs Team gibt es Situationen, wo das wirklich, ja, sehr sinnvoll ist, gerade wenn Du eine Organisation hast, die die die halt unter, ja, 'ner sehr starken, sone sehr starke künstliche Grenze irgendwie zwischen Product und Engineering irgendwie ist, ne. Wo die Designer und die Produktmanager irgendwie in soner anderen Welt leben als die Entwickler und ich glaube, eine CPTO Rolle kann dann gut sein, wenn es darum geht, diese Teams effizienter zusammenarbeiten zu lassen. Das kann ich kann ich eigentlich so unterschreiben. Ob es jetzt alle Probleme löst.\n\nEs gibt sicherlich auch Setups, wo wo es sozusagen irgendwie umgekehrt ist und jetzt ist auch sozusagen meine Nachfolge bei 7 meint es eher jetzt auch wieder Head of Engineering Health product. Also das das das Aber die verstehen sich halt gut und und und arbeiten gut zusammen und und genau, die ich jetzt so in den letzten Monaten aufgebaut habe, sodass sie das alleine weitermachen können.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und das ist, glaube ich, der viel entscheidendere Teil, ja? Weil wir hatten in früheren Unternehmen auch schon mal ähnliche Diskussionen, ja. Will man das zusammenlegen oder nicht? Und grade, was Fabian gesagt hat, na ja, das sind ja Teams und Rollenverständnisse, die ja eigentlich so diametral entgegengesetzt laufen, so, ja. Oder oder zumindest nicht hundert Prozent allein sind, egal wie wie wie gut sie's so machen.\n\nUnd wir haben uns damals bewusst dagegen entschieden unter der Prämisse, dass wir halt diesen diesen Gegensatz auch nicht aufheben wollten, ja, sondern weil weil jeder für sich schon so seine Daseinsberechtigung hatte, so jeder jeder P o, ja, jeder Productmanager, es ist vollkommen richtig, dass der anders auf dieses Produkt guckt als halt jeder Ingenieur oder Designer oder Supportmitarbeiter, der da halt irgendwie beteiligt ist, ja, das ist schon okay. Was halt viel wichtiger ist und wo was wo wir uns dann entschieden haben, die Energie rein zu investieren, ist, dass die halt eine gemeinsame Sprache finden, irgendwie darüber sprechen zu können.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. Ja?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Weil also Du Du kannst diesen Konflikt strukturell versuchen aufzuheben oder Du kannst den halt quasi auf funktionaler Ebene versuchen, so so aufzuheben. Und das war das, was wir damals versucht haben. Ich will nicht sagen, dass eins besser oder schlechter ist. Ich will nur sagen, dass das Problem, was Du was Du abgerissen hast, vollkommen richtig sehe ich auch.\n\nIch würde nur sagen, es gibt nur, wahrscheinlich auch andere Möglichkeiten, das noch anzugehen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, also ich finde immer sozusagen, Du hast es auch angesprochen, grade, dass in diesem ganzen Zusammenarbeit, diesen crossfunktionalen ist wirklich der Schlüssel in eine gute Kommunikation. Das ist auch einfach sone Sache, die ich in, wenn ich jetzt Leute anstelle, sei es irgendwie Pos, sei es Entwickler, schon auch sehr, sehr ernst nehme, wie gut können die eigentlich kommunizieren? Wie gut können die das vermitteln, woran die eigentlich arbeiten? Weil Du ja auch insbesondere, wenns auch eben nicht face to face zusammengearbeitet wird und und da jetzt irgendwie remote quasi, ja eben sich nicht gegenüber setzen, dann dann ist ja oft so der Kontext geht das verloren, ne. Und Du brauchst halt Menschen, die es schaffen sozusagen, sei es eine geschriebene Kommunikation oder eben auch mögliche Kommunikation in Meetings, es irgendwie auf den Punkt bringen.\n\nUnd und ja, diese völlig unterschiedlichen Disziplinen und sind ja auch sehr unterschiedlich, auch wenn ich die Design noch zum Beispiel mit reinnehme, ne. Ja, sind einfach in ihrer Summe irgendwie natürlich am besten, wie ich eben gesagt habe, aber irgendwie dafür ist dieser wirklich die Fähigkeit Also das sehe ich immer wieder, dass es irgendwie scheitert. Also ich weiß nicht, wie viele Softwareprojekte scheitern nicht wegen irgend 'nem technischen Stack, sondern weil einfach Leute irgendwie nicht ordentlich miteinander reden. In vielen anderen irgendwie Companys. Deswegen also es ist nicht das Einzige jetzt auf diesen persönlichen Soft Skill Bereich, was ich für wichtig erachte, aber es ist schon mit Ein Schlüssel, so diese Übersetzungsfähigkeit der eigenen Arbeit letzten Endes zu leisten.\n\nSpeaker 2: Da kann ich noch eine Lust gar nicht tot zu erzählen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Sehr gerne.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ich glaube, was was ja superhilfreich ist an so Situationen, ist, wenn Du halt son bisschen egobefreit bist, ne. Wenn Du halt dann, es hilft ja halt so im Tagesgeschäft, über diese Unterschiede hinwegzusehen und halt nicht alles immer gleich als persönlicher in Angriff irgendwie zu lesen, ne. Und wir haben irgendwann mal angefangen im Recruiting, ich sag nicht nicht wo und mit wem. Aber wenn wir so Leute im Gespräch hatten, denen einfach manchmal auch son bisschen auf die Nerven zu gehen, So, ja. Und dann Du Du sprichst dann mit den Leuten und sagst so, hey, was hast 'n Du so für Hobbys?\n\nUnd dann sagt der Dennis so, ja, Kitesurfen mach ich voll gerne. Und dann sagt er, Kitesurfen, das stell ich mir aber richtig langweilig vor. So, einfach sie mal son bisschen in sone unbequeme Situation zu bringen und dann halt zu gucken so, ne, werden die so defensiv oder öffnen die sich dann eher noch mal besonders raus, ne? Weil es gibt ja sehr unterschiedliche Arten und Weisen, damit umzugehen. Und das war tatsächlich 'n sehr guter Indikator für, wie gut passen diese Leute später auch in so crossfunktionale Teams?\n\nSpeaker 1: Na ja, genau. Und wie wie gut ist deren Fähigkeit, sozusagen unter Druck und Stress irgendwie zu funktionieren, ne?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Und halt trotzdem auch deinem Gegenüber irgendwie noch noch nett zu bleiben. Und ganz ehrlich, das war halt auch im im Rekurs, war war super lustig so, ne? Natürlich haben wir denen das danach auch irgendwie allen so so noch mal erklärt, wenn sie dann eingestellt worden, sodass wir denen nichts Böses wollten. Ja.\n\nAber da hast Du ja schon so bei dem einen oder anderen gesehen, wie son bisschen das das Gesicht so runterfällt dann, ne.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, schön, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Gut. Wir haben bisschen Zeit laufen das Ende unserer Zeit, aber im Jahr zweitausendfünfundzwanzig darf man ja keinen Podcast machen, wo man nicht noch mal explizit ganz kurz auf AI zu sprechen kommt. Du hast zumindest gesagt, Du hast dich ja nebenbei, ja beschäftigst Du dich auch 'n bisschen. Von daher dein ganz persönlicher Ausblick. Freude, Angst, wie sehr wird es deinen Job, den Job deiner Mitarbeitenden beeinflussen?\n\nGroße Fragen jetzt grade, aber vielleicht kannst Du es ja trotzdem einfach so deine Gefühle zu AI Anfang zweitausendfünfundzwanzig kurz zusammenfassen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, es wird uns begleiten und es wird auch kein Weg darum herumkommen. Also man kann sich dem eigentlich nicht widersetzen, auch dieser Veränderung, die angestoßen wird durch durch AI. Und es wird sicherlich Rollen geben, die ganz realistisch gesehen halt überflüssig werden. Was ich sozusagen der, also zumindest bisher der AI immer noch nicht so richtig zuschreibe, ist Kreativität. Es ist für mich immer noch gefühlt sonen, sagen wir, Pottbüro an an an an Geschichten, die zusammengewürfelt werden.\n\nAber ich glaube, dass es in bestimmten Rollen, in bestimmten ja, Jobs nach wie vor Menschen gibt und auch geben wird, die quasi, was weiß ich, wie ihr irgendwie Spiele irgendwie bauen, entscheiden, was sozusagen gemacht wird, wie das gestaltet, ausgestaltet ist. Natürlich, also ich sehe AI wirklich schon als 'n großer, großer Gamechanger an, aber ich bin noch nicht so weit zu sagen, okay, die AI wird jetzt auch irgendwie alles so von Grund auf irgendwie überflüssig machen, was so Softwareentwicklung betrifft, weil so ja, bestimmte Dinge, glaube ich, ja, also nach wie vor weiterhin quasi den den menschlichen Charaktereigenschaften vorbehalten ist, wenn das irgendwie so halbwegs Ja, kann ich\n\nSpeaker 0: kann ich gut nachvollziehen. Ich mein, Tim Cook ist solch zu Kitchen Storys nach Berlin gekommen, ne. Also auch das ist ja ein Part von dem Erfolg irgendwie, der da ist. Und auch wenn eine AI die gleiche App, die er irgendwie hinstellt, sind es, glaube ich, noch mehr Faktoren, die beeinflussen, ob beim Produkt erfolgreich wird oder nicht?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Ja, auf jeden Fall.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich guck mal rüber zu dir, Jana, aber ich würd fast sagen, die Fragen müssen wir heute skippen, hä?\n\nSpeaker 2: Nee. Und dafür Das schaffen wir doch noch, oder?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das schaffen wir doch noch, oder? Noch mal,\n\nSpeaker 0: aber dafür würde ich lieber auf die eine noch die eine Frage stellen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Eine Frage?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ach so, ja, das kannst Du auch machen. Die stellen, ich überlass es dir.\n\nSpeaker 0: Was ich gerne noch wissen würde, Fabian, wenn Du jetzt zurückblickst auf all die Jahre, die Du schon in der Techbranche unterwegs bist, gibt es irgendwas, was Du deinem jüngeren Ich ins Ohr flüstern würdest, wenn Du zurückreisen könntest und sagen, hey, das ist 'n Pitfall, das ist was wirklich, macht das anders, verhalte dich da anders, trifft die Entscheidung anders? Gibt's irgendwas, wenn Du jetzt die ganze Laufbahn dir so anguckst, wo Du sagst so, hätte ich das mal gewusst, das wär cool gewesen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und früh Nvidia Aktien kaufen zählt nicht. Schade, ja. Na ja,\n\nSpeaker 1: dann Apple Aktien, nee. Aber ja, wenn ich jetzt zurückreisen könnte, würde ich, glaub ich, schon in diese allererste Zeit bei Kitchen Stories Reisen, wo, ich hab ja son bisschen erzählt, irgendwie so so kaltes Wasser. Man ist auf einmal so eben nicht mehr nur in diesem Tech Bereich, sondern in ganz vielen anderen Bereichen. Irgendwie hin- und hergerissen zwischen irgendwie Management und Company, aber eben auch so Team, persönliche Befindlichkeiten. Und was ich mir, glaube ich, ins Ohr geflüstert hätte damals zumindest in der Anfangsphase, ist, Du bist nicht allein.\n\nAlso man ist ja in der CTO Rolle irgendwie, man sagt ja irgendwie so, es gibt irgendwie oft einfach nicht son Counterpart in der Firma, ne. Jemand, der sich, jemand sich mal auskotzen kann oder sich irgendwie Rat holen kann. Und ich glaube, dass ich hab etwas zu spät realisiert, dass es ja da draußen einfach noch mal viele andere mit den gleichen Problemen gibt. Und war, hab etwas spät mit so irgendwie Netzwerken, aber auch so einfach mal wirklich 'n Gespräch aufnehmen, Sagen wir mal über so dieses Technische, man ist mal relativ easy going, dann mit anderen irgendwie, hey, hier Plattform, Tech, eins, zwei, drei, was machst Du denn? Das sind die neuesten, coolen Tools, die ihr irgendwie einsetzt.\n\nSondern eben auch, hey, ich stehe hier vor dem Problem, mein Team will irgendwie was ganz anderes als irgendwie die Firma. Einfach son bisschen, ja, dieser dieser ja, dieser Austausch und und das kann ich einfach auch nur jedem in der Rolle ans Herz legen, weil das das bringt einfach unfassbar viel. Wie eben auch in anderen, also in allen anderen Jobs in der Firma, die es halt irgendwie in mehreren Instanzen irgendwie gibt, so sich halt in der CTO Rolle eben nicht alleine zu führen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Cool. Wärst Du noch etwas anderes gerne gefragt worden?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich hab wunderbare Fragen gestellt. Also da fällt mir uns gar nichts mehr ein, was ihr was ihr ihr hättet fragen können.\n\nSpeaker 0: Sehr schön.\n\nSpeaker 2: Sehr schön. Mein mein Highlight ist übrigens das, was die Hörerinnen da draußen die ganze Zeit nicht mitbekommen haben, ist, also wenn ich nervös bin, brauche ich auch immer irgendwas in der Hand, mit dem spielen zu können, aber es hat ja niemand gesehen, was Fabian die ganze Zeit in der Hand hatte.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das stimmt. Ich hab's auch die, ich hab zwischendurch, genau, ich hab's zum Schluss überlegt, ob ganz, ob wir's erwähnen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ah, das ist schön.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und und die Kaveter sind.\n\nSpeaker 2: Cool und sympathisch und die ganze Zeit mit dem Schraubenzieher in\n\nSpeaker 1: der Luft gefielt. Ich weiß auch gar nicht, warum er hier liegt. Das hat sich, glaube ich, erst mal so grundsätzlich irritiert. Aber ich glaub, ich hab irgend eine Batterie gewechselt für meinen Sohn und der liegt hier irgendwie noch am Schreibtisch und ja.\n\nSpeaker 2: Na ja, das ist ja schon, das ist schon cool so. Es es trägt so zur zur Nerd bei, wenn son son bisschen feinen Werkzeug muss aufm Schreibtisch rumliegen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Sehr schön.\n\nSpeaker 1: Na gut. Philipp's feine Ozean.\n\nSpeaker 0: Fabian, vielen, vielen Dank, dass Du dir die Zeit genommen hast, heute mit uns zu sprechen. Hat mir wahnsinnig viel Spaß gemacht. Jan, danke auch, dir\n\nSpeaker 2: Das war dein Fest.\n\nSpeaker 1: Vielen Dank an euch. Ich war gerne hier und vielleicht sieht man sich ja noch mal.\n\nSpeaker 0: Sehr gerne, hoffentlich. Also gut. Ja, ach so, fast vergessen an unsere Hörerinnen natürlich. Noch der Hinweis, wie immer sind wir auf euer Feedback auf euer Feedback angewiesen. Das könnt ihr uns gerne über unsere Programmier Punkt Bar Webseite schicken oder at Podcast at Programmier Punkt Bar oder jetzt sind wir auf Blue Sky und nicht mehr auf X unterwegs, also auch da gerne verloren und uns Nachrichten schicken.\n\nWir freuen uns über alles, was da kommt. Joa, sonst irgendein Announcement, das weißt Du besser als ich. Aktuell. Kein Announcement. Sehr gut, außer die Vorgabe, mehr CTO Specials dieses Jahr.\n\nDas kriegen wir bestimmt hin. Sehr\n\nSpeaker 1: schön. Vielen Dank Fabian. Macht's gut, ihr Lieben. Tschau, tschau. Bis bald.",[34953,34966,34975,34981,34988,34993,35002,35006,35014,35018,35030,35034,35038,35051,35064,35077,35088,35098,35109,35117,35124,35129,35136,35147,35152,35158,35169,35173,35181,35186,35199,35208,35213,35224,35228,35238,35242,35247,35250,35259,35272,35279,35283,35294,35298,35307,35312,35322,35330,35343,35354,35362,35375,35379,35382,35386,35390,35403,35407,35410,35414,35426,35438,35451,35464,35477,35484,35492,35504,35508,35520,35533,35545,35550,35559,35563,35576,35585,35589,35601,35613,35626,35639,35652,35664,35677,35685,35688,35693,35706,35714,35724,35730,35733,35737,35742,35749,35756,35762,35771,35775,35780,35787,35799,35811,35824,35833,35836,35841,35845,35849,35854,35862,35865,35878,35887,35891,35904,35913,35924,35933,35946,35959,35972,35985,35998,36010,36015,36019,36031,36044,36055,36068,36080,36092,36097,36101,36111,36122,36130,36143,36156,36161,36174,36187,36196,36205,36209,36220,36233,36246,36255,36267,36279,36283,36295,36300,36307,36313,36326,36330,36333,36341,36347,36359,36370,36382,36395,36398,36402,36413,36425,36436,36449,36457,36460,36464,36468,36472,36478,36484,36487,36500,36511,36524,36537,36544,36556,36563,36567,36579,36584,36597,36609,36613,36616,36628,36641,36648,36658,36662,36666,36678,36682,36694,36700,36710,36715,36719,36724,36731,36736,36740,36746,36753,36761,36773,36785,36793,36798,36804,36807,36813,36820,36824,36828,36832,36843,36849,36852,36858,36867,36871,36877,36890,36901,36906],{"sentences":34954,"speaker":129,"num_words":34965,"start":126,"end":435},[34955,34957,34959,34961,34963],{"text":34956,"start":126,"end":174},"Hallo und herzlich willkommen liebe Hörer*innen zu einem neuen CTO Special.",{"text":34958,"start":179,"end":284},"Die, die mich kennen und die das Format schon ab und zu gehört haben, ich sag den Satz immer vorneweg, ich freue mich besonders auf diese Folgen und so auch heute.",{"text":34960,"start":284,"end":320},"Wir hatten ja glaube ich ein bisschen Zum Pause.",{"text":34962,"start":325,"end":403},"Hätte ein bisschen Pause in der in in in dieser Reihe, aber hoffen wir zweitausendfünfundzwanzig wieder ein bisschen an den Start zu bekommen.",{"text":34964,"start":403,"end":435},"Ich bin Dennis, an meiner Seite Ist der Jan.",83,{"sentences":34967,"speaker":129,"num_words":34974,"start":435,"end":495},[34968,34970,34972],{"text":34969,"start":435,"end":444},"Hi hi.",{"text":34971,"start":448,"end":489},"Ist der Jan von der Programmierbar und wir haben heute Fabian Lukas zu Besuch.",{"text":34973,"start":489,"end":495},"Hallo Fabian.",18,{"sentences":34976,"speaker":108,"num_words":34980,"start":498,"end":522},[34977,34978],{"text":502,"start":498,"end":499},{"text":34979,"start":499,"end":522},"Schön, dass ich hier sein darf.",7,{"sentences":34982,"speaker":129,"num_words":34987,"start":526,"end":664},[34983,34985],{"text":34984,"start":526,"end":550},"Ja, sehr cool, dass Du da bist.",{"text":34986,"start":555,"end":664},"Zuletzt die BTO der 7 Mind GmbH, Kitchen Stories, auch ein großer großer Laden, kennen das nur ich Jan oder ist das wirklich, ist das so Deutschland durchaus bekannt, oder?",37,{"sentences":34989,"speaker":672,"num_words":34992,"start":669,"end":740},[34990],{"text":34991,"start":669,"end":740},"Also ich kenn das auch, aber ich bin mir da auch immer nie so ganz sicher, ob das ich oder meine Bubble oder",23,{"sentences":34994,"speaker":129,"num_words":35001,"start":744,"end":916},[34995,34997,34999],{"text":34996,"start":744,"end":819},"Okay, aber ich kann vielleicht auch gar nicht wahr werden noch sagen, wie groß Kitchen Stories am Ende denn in Deutschland war.",{"text":34998,"start":819,"end":856},"Ich kenn das auf jeden Fall und habe es auch selbst benutzt.",{"text":35000,"start":860,"end":916},"Und einige spannende Stationen vorher, wo uns Fabian ein bisschen Teil von haben lässt in der heutigen Folge.",52,{"sentences":35003,"speaker":108,"num_words":672,"start":920,"end":926},[35004],{"text":35005,"start":920,"end":926},"Sehr gerne.",{"sentences":35007,"speaker":129,"num_words":35001,"start":931,"end":1096},[35008,35010,35012],{"text":35009,"start":931,"end":1035},"Eigentlich fangen all unsere CTO Folgen auch ziemlich gleich an, denn wir fragen am Anfang so, wenn Du mal zurückblickst und dein ganz junges Ich anguckst, wann war so dein erster Kontakt zu Technologie?",{"text":35011,"start":1040,"end":1059},"Was hat dich an den Computer gebracht?",{"text":35013,"start":1059,"end":1096},"Wieso hast Du angefangen, dich irgendwie mit Programmieren und Computern auseinanderzusetzen?",{"sentences":35015,"speaker":672,"num_words":672,"start":1100,"end":1104},[35016],{"text":35017,"start":1100,"end":1104},"Ja, also",{"sentences":35019,"speaker":108,"num_words":35029,"start":1106,"end":1368},[35020,35022,35024,35025,35027],{"text":35021,"start":1106,"end":1183},"ich weiß nicht, ob ich das irgendwie in 'ner DNA hatte, aber es war wirklich früh bei mir, dass ich mich grundsätzlich für Technik interessiert habe.",{"text":35023,"start":1187,"end":1261},"Für Also als kleiner Junge wird mir wird mir nachgesagt, dass ich quasi, sobald ich lesen konnte, irgendwie Gebrauchsanweisungen gelesen habe.",{"text":1268,"start":1265,"end":1266},{"text":35026,"start":1270,"end":1325},"Und für die Familie dann entsprechend den Videokrekorder, die ja, die Kamera oder was auch immer programmiert habe.",{"text":35028,"start":1328,"end":1368},"Und ja, bezüglich Computer, ich glaub das erste Mal so wirklich Kontakt zum Computer.",80,{"sentences":35031,"speaker":108,"num_words":34992,"start":1373,"end":1439},[35032],{"text":35033,"start":1373,"end":1439},"Witzigerweise kann sich da keiner bei mir in der Familie so richtig erinnern, wo der herkam, aber wir hatten plötzlich einen Commodore hundertachtundzwanzig.",{"sentences":35035,"speaker":129,"num_words":672,"start":1444,"end":1450},[35036],{"text":35037,"start":1444,"end":1450},"Ah, okay.",{"sentences":35039,"speaker":108,"num_words":35050,"start":1450,"end":1845},[35040,35042,35044,35046,35048],{"text":35041,"start":1450,"end":1492},"Der eher eher stiefmütterliches unbekannteres Modell nach dem C vierundsechzig.",{"text":35043,"start":1497,"end":1542},"Genau, der war irgendwie, ich glaub, da war ich so acht, da war der einfach plötzlich da.",{"text":35045,"start":1546,"end":1574},"Und den hab ich mir irgendwie so unter die Nägel gerissen.",{"text":35047,"start":1579,"end":1701},"Natürlich ja, zum Spielen, wir hatten irgendwie auch, weiß ja auch keiner, wo die herkamen, irgendwie so, man hat ja noch diese schönen labbriken Fünfeinviertel Disketten mit Spielen, aber musste ja dann letzten Endes auch, Spiele zu starten.",{"text":35049,"start":1701,"end":1845},"Es war ja jetzt wie beim, was weiß ich, Amiga später, wo man einfach oder bei der Spielekonsole so reingesteckt hat und hat's gebooutet von dem von dem Medium, sondern musste sich ja dann son bisschen zumindest mit ja Basic war das glaube ich auseinandersetzen.",121,{"sentences":35052,"speaker":108,"num_words":35063,"start":1849,"end":2298},[35053,35055,35057,35059,35061],{"text":35054,"start":1849,"end":2056},"Und ich hab immer noch dieses gefühlte Muscle Memory irgendwie vom von der Kindheit, so dieses Load, Dollar Komma acht, wo man hat sich dann das Listing, die irgendwie lokal überschrieben wurde durch das durch das Dateilisting dieser Diskette und dann sich dann entsprechend, ja, diese diese Spiel, was auch immer man gestartet hat sozusagen, aus ausgewählt hat und wieder dann so geloaded und gerandt hat.",{"text":35056,"start":2060,"end":2113},"Und ja, und ich hatte immer den Anspruch dann wirklich auch zu verstehen, was ist das eigentlich, was ich da mache?",{"text":35058,"start":2117,"end":2124},"Wie funktioniert das?",{"text":35060,"start":2124,"end":2211},"Und hab dann irgendwie sonen dicken Wälzer Basic Buch dann immer gehabt, wo man irgendwie irgendwie so mühevoll über Tausende von Seiten irgendwie ja, Befehle nachgeschlagen habe.",{"text":35062,"start":2211,"end":2298},"Ich weiß noch, dass es da irgendwie so Poker gab, man irgendwie in Speicheradressen reinschreiben konnte, also magische Dinge, die man in Tabellen nachschlagen konnte, passiert sind.",144,{"sentences":35065,"speaker":108,"num_words":35076,"start":2302,"end":2643},[35066,35068,35070,35072,35074],{"text":35067,"start":2302,"end":2357},"Und ja, und dann hab ich mich irgendwie dann da schon so mit acht, neun, zehn irgendwie Programmierung son bisschen auseinandergesetzt.",{"text":35069,"start":2360,"end":2396},"Das heißt, ja ich hab irgendwie so mein Wissen mir irgendwie zusammengestückelt.",{"text":35071,"start":2399,"end":2546},"Es gab ja auch so damals schon so Magazine, wo man halt so Listings abtippen konnte und ich weiß, so das erste so wirklich Ding, was ich irgendwie so gemacht habe, war, es gab irgendwie Sprites, die man so mühevoll über so Speicheradressen irgendwie dann über 'n Bildschirm bewegen konnte.",{"text":35073,"start":2549,"end":2576},"Und dass ich dann hab ich irgendwie so eins und eins zusammengezählt.",{"text":35075,"start":2579,"end":2643},"Ich hab irgendwie rausgefunden, wie man den Joystick, man hatte diese Joysticks gehabt, ein oder zwei, so die Eingaben abfragen kann.",116,{"sentences":35078,"speaker":108,"num_words":35087,"start":2646,"end":2921},[35079,35081,35083,35085],{"text":35080,"start":2646,"end":2674},"Und dann hab ich irgendwie son Spiel und wahrscheinlich auch sehr altersgerecht.",{"text":35082,"start":2678,"end":2743},"Es war 'n Fangenspiel, also zwei Streits, dass ich einfach nur über zwei Spieler, die man einfach fangen musste, sondern war's Spiel vorbei.",{"text":35084,"start":2746,"end":2786},"Das war eigentlich so mein erstes, wo ich mich Wiki zurückerinnern, halbwegs sinnvoll.",{"text":35086,"start":2786,"end":2921},"Man würd jetzt sagen, okay, ihr ihr könnt sich wahrscheinlich besser mit Spielen aus, aber es hat hat jetzt nicht so die superkrasse, ja, hat Spaßfaktor, aber genau, das war eigentlich so das Erste, was ich damals irgendwie so zusammengestückelt habe mit irgendwie, weiß ich nicht, zehn Jahren.",96,{"sentences":35089,"speaker":672,"num_words":35097,"start":2925,"end":3065},[35090,35092,35094,35095],{"text":35091,"start":2925,"end":2939},"Ist doch interessant, ne.",{"text":35093,"start":2939,"end":3033},"Also unabhängig von den den CTO Biografien, die wir jetzt hier schon hatten, wie viele Leute im Podcast eigentlich erzählen, sie sind durch Spielen zum Computer oder zur Entwicklung so gekommen, so.",{"text":3039,"start":3033,"end":3037},{"text":35096,"start":3037,"end":3065},"Weil weil sie halt mal so was selber machen wollten.",47,{"sentences":35099,"speaker":108,"num_words":35108,"start":3065,"end":3268},[35100,35101,35102,35104,35106],{"text":3039,"start":3065,"end":3069},{"text":3039,"start":3069,"end":3073},{"text":35103,"start":3073,"end":3122},"Und das ist echt spannend, weil das war ja son bisschen Voraussetzung eigentlich und der Einstieg halt, ne.",{"text":35105,"start":3122,"end":3147},"Und heutzutage ist das, glaub ich, nicht mehr so.",{"text":35107,"start":3147,"end":3268},"Heute ist Spielen ja irgendwie gegeben, ne, auf welchem Medium auch immer und es bedarf nicht mehr dieses, ich muss mich irgendwie mit der mit dem System beschäftigen, so damit ich spielen kann, weil es ja super intrinsische Motivation ist, Ja.",70,{"sentences":35110,"speaker":108,"num_words":35116,"start":3271,"end":3298},[35111,35113,35114],{"text":35112,"start":3271,"end":3289},"Sich halt mit der Hardware auseinanderzusetzen, ne.",{"text":3039,"start":3289,"end":3292},{"text":35115,"start":3294,"end":3298},"Ja, genau.",10,{"sentences":35118,"speaker":129,"num_words":35123,"start":3301,"end":3386},[35119,35121],{"text":35120,"start":3301,"end":3330},"Du hast dir kurz vor der Folge noch 'n Kaffee gemacht.",{"text":35122,"start":3330,"end":3386},"Wenn Du jetzt son technisch interessierter Typ bist, würde ich mal vermuten, Du hast irgendwie 'n speziellen Kaffeeautomaten",29,{"sentences":35125,"speaker":108,"num_words":35128,"start":3390,"end":3401},[35126],{"text":35127,"start":3390,"end":3401},"oder Ja, ist irgendwie",4,{"sentences":35130,"speaker":129,"num_words":35135,"start":3401,"end":3430},[35131,35133],{"text":35132,"start":3401,"end":3419},"Super Basic oder eine Siebträgermaschine.",{"text":35134,"start":3423,"end":3430},"Was ist dein Kaffee?",9,{"sentences":35137,"speaker":108,"num_words":35146,"start":3434,"end":3544},[35138,35139,35141,35142,35144],{"text":3421,"start":3434,"end":3435},{"text":35140,"start":3439,"end":3452},"Eigentlich Sie Super Basic Okay.",{"text":3460,"start":3457,"end":3458},{"text":35143,"start":3462,"end":3484},"Die musste jetzt eben auch erst mal warm werden.",{"text":35145,"start":3488,"end":3544},"Genau und und machen mir dann sozusagen 'n sogenannten Flat White, also 'n doppelten Espresso mit aufgeschäumter Milch.",34,{"sentences":35148,"speaker":108,"num_words":35151,"start":3544,"end":3579},[35149],{"text":35150,"start":3544,"end":3579},"Und das deswegen war er nur noch fünf Minuten weg grade.",11,{"sentences":35153,"speaker":129,"num_words":35001,"start":3583,"end":3734},[35154,35156],{"text":35155,"start":3583,"end":3706},"Ja, okay, aber das ist es, ich glaube, also bei mir ist das Zusammenhang zumindest, ich trink keinen Kaffee und trotzdem finde ich Kaffeemaschinen mega cool, weil mich halt irgendwie so die Techniker interessiert und es hat irgendwie was Technisches an sich hat.",{"text":35157,"start":3706,"end":3734},"Von daher kam kam grade da dazu die Frage.",{"sentences":35159,"speaker":108,"num_words":35168,"start":3734,"end":3857},[35160,35162,35164,35166],{"text":35161,"start":3734,"end":3747},"Und Smarthomes, ne?",{"text":35163,"start":3747,"end":3776},"Ist auch noch mal in dieser in dieser Bubble drin, ne?",{"text":35165,"start":3776,"end":3850},"Da hab ich gefühlt auch in meinem Umfeld so so dieses irgendwie Know how Programmierung, aber dann irgendwie Kaffee und irgendwie seinen Home automatisieren.",{"text":35167,"start":3854,"end":3857},"Das ist",40,{"sentences":35170,"speaker":672,"num_words":35128,"start":3857,"end":3866},[35171],{"text":35172,"start":3857,"end":3866},"so eine eine Bubble.",{"sentences":35174,"speaker":129,"num_words":35180,"start":3870,"end":3960},[35175,35176,35178],{"text":3039,"start":3870,"end":3871},{"text":35177,"start":3874,"end":3945},"Ja, da bin ich, also doch, ich hab auch schon einiges an Sensoren zu Hause, aber es ist noch nicht, dass dass alles komplett automatisiert ist.",{"text":35179,"start":3948,"end":3960},"Ich weiß nicht, ich Was",32,{"sentences":35182,"speaker":672,"num_words":35185,"start":3960,"end":3984},[35183],{"text":35184,"start":3960,"end":3984},"hat sich nur roh, sich auszutoben?",6,{"sentences":35187,"speaker":129,"num_words":35198,"start":3988,"end":4076},[35188,35190,35192,35194,35196],{"text":35189,"start":3988,"end":3996},"Ja, das stimmt.",{"text":35191,"start":3996,"end":4021},"Die haben ja auch einiges an an an Technik verbaut.",{"text":35193,"start":4025,"end":4046},"Dann wirst Du immer noch Bisschen was?",{"text":35195,"start":4046,"end":4054},"Bisschen was?",{"text":35197,"start":4054,"end":4076},"Ich bin ja nicht der Gast der Vollgeheult.",30,{"sentences":35200,"speaker":129,"num_words":35207,"start":4076,"end":4221},[35201,35203,35205],{"text":35202,"start":4076,"end":4101},"Ich muss es trotzdem diese Story neu erzählen.",{"text":35204,"start":4101,"end":4132},"Ich hab, weiß nicht, ob ich's im Podcast schon erzählen durfte.",{"text":35206,"start":4136,"end":4221},"Aus diesen großen Disketten, die Du grade genannt hast, da hab ich nämlich damals noch 'n Business gemacht, als nämlich dann der Umstieg war auf die, was war die nächste Größe?",50,{"sentences":35209,"speaker":108,"num_words":35212,"start":4221,"end":4232},[35210],{"text":35211,"start":4221,"end":4232},"Ja, dreieinhalb Zoll.",3,{"sentences":35214,"speaker":129,"num_words":35223,"start":4232,"end":4513},[35215,35217,35219,35221],{"text":35216,"start":4232,"end":4274},"Dreieinhalb Zoll, genau, dreieinhalb Zoll Disketten waren die großen, brauchte man nicht mehr.",{"text":35218,"start":4274,"end":4334},"Und wenn man die aufgeschnitten hat und praktisch diese diese Scheibe da in der Mitte rausgenommen hat, diese Scheibe hat extrem geknistert.",{"text":35220,"start":4338,"end":4412},"Die habe ich, da war ich dann in der, ah, weiß gar nicht, das war nicht eine Warn Grundschule fünf sechs sechs oder so was.",{"text":35222,"start":4416,"end":4513},"Da habe ich die alle rausgeschnitten und als Knisper Knisper Papier in der Schule verkauft und hab irgendwie so zehn Pfennig oder so was für jede auf für für jede aufgeschnittenes Papier benutzt.",93,{"sentences":35225,"speaker":108,"num_words":35135,"start":4515,"end":4540},[35226],{"text":35227,"start":4515,"end":4540},"Was war denn der Use Case von diesem Knissterpapier?",{"sentences":35229,"speaker":129,"num_words":35237,"start":4544,"end":4628},[35230,35232,35234,35235],{"text":35231,"start":4544,"end":4577},"Einfach nur, das ist geil, dass es so laut geknisster hat.",{"text":35233,"start":4579,"end":4609},"Es ist nicht nicht besonders spannend, aber es war eine Wiederverwertung.",{"text":3039,"start":4613,"end":4614},{"text":35236,"start":4614,"end":4628},"Schon damals sustainable gedacht.",27,{"sentences":35239,"speaker":672,"num_words":35116,"start":4632,"end":4658},[35240],{"text":35241,"start":4632,"end":4658},"Na ja, ja, lassen wir mal so im Raum stehen.",{"sentences":35243,"speaker":129,"num_words":35246,"start":4662,"end":4739},[35244],{"text":35245,"start":4662,"end":4739},"Gut, also auch wenn ich das jetzt son bisschen vergleiche mit den CDU Folgen, die wir bis jetzt hatten, das ist zehn schon schon sehr früher Einstieg so",28,{"sentences":35248,"speaker":672,"num_words":108,"start":4742,"end":4743},[35249],{"text":3039,"start":4742,"end":4743},{"sentences":35251,"speaker":129,"num_words":35258,"start":4746,"end":4886},[35252,35254,35256],{"text":35253,"start":4746,"end":4763},"In die in in die Entwicklung.",{"text":35255,"start":4766,"end":4776},"Wie ging's dann weiter?",{"text":35257,"start":4776,"end":4886},"Hattest Du das dann während deiner Schulzeit auch schon irgendwie die ganze Zeit so nebenbei und war's derjenige, der zu jedem Computerproblem befragt wurde oder gab's irgendwie noch mal eine Pause, bis Du's dann später noch mal aufgenommen hast?",49,{"sentences":35260,"speaker":108,"num_words":35271,"start":4890,"end":5633},[35261,35263,35265,35267,35269],{"text":35262,"start":4890,"end":4903},"Nee, das war schon durchgehend.",{"text":35264,"start":4906,"end":4970},"Ich bin dann sozusagen von der Kommodore Welt, beziehungsweise bin bei der Kommodore Welt geblieben und bin, hab sozusagen auf Amiga umgestiegen.",{"text":35266,"start":4973,"end":5092},"Und ja, natürlich war ich irgendwie technischer Ansprechpartner für Friends und Family Und insbesondere hab ich dann, ich bin relativ spät dann, auch nachdem ich meinen Amiga zwölfhundert in, den hab ich irgendwie dann sozusagen umgebaut in son Midi Tower.",{"text":35268,"start":5096,"end":5438},"Da gab's irgendwie so Umbausets, ich weiß nicht, ob ihr euch da dran erinnert, bin ich irgendwie dann in son sozusagen danach irgendwann, ich weiß nicht, fünfundneunzig oder zumindest mit Windows fünfundneunzig und Pentium bin ich dann in die PC Welt umgestiegen und war dann, ja, hab son bisschen dann, ja, mich mit den Themen beschäftigt und hab da das erste Mal dann auch im Geschäft in Anführungszeichen, sage ich sagen, draus gemacht, sozusagen PCs zusammenzustellen nach Bedürfnissen von, ja, im Bekanntenkreis, aber auch außerhalb, sprich, okay, Spielcomputer, gute Grafikkarte und wie viel Festplatte und so weiter und hab dann, ja, letzten Endes irgendwie schon 'n Gewerbeschein gehabt, hab dann irgendwie Komponenten son bisschen Bilder gekriegt.",{"text":35270,"start":5441,"end":5633},"Ja, die Marge war jetzt irgendwie nicht riesig und wenn ich auch überlege, wie viel Zeit ich dann letzten Endes fürs Zusammenbauen und Schrauben verwendet habe, aber es war schon 'n gutes Zeitbusiness, hab ich glaube ich so mit, weiß nicht, siebzehn, achtzehn irgendwie angefangen Und dazwischen, weiß nicht, an der Schule haben wir dann schon, wenn wir jetzt von der Hardware wieder zur Software kommen, HTML gelernt.",251,{"sentences":35273,"speaker":108,"num_words":35278,"start":5633,"end":5789},[35274,35276],{"text":35275,"start":5633,"end":5692},"Das war ja echt schon relativ modern da, neben Togo Pascal, was, glaube ich, ich auch jeder irgendwie gemacht hat.",{"text":35277,"start":5694,"end":5789},"Genau, weiß ich noch, dass son HTML Projekt in der Schule gemacht habe und da bin ich dann jetzt auch mit Internet, wir hatten dann irgendwann einen ISDN zu Hause, supergeil, mit Kanalbündelung und Code.",55,{"sentences":35280,"speaker":672,"num_words":672,"start":5789,"end":5800},[35281],{"text":35282,"start":5789,"end":5800},"Hundertachtundzwanzig k.",{"sentences":35284,"speaker":108,"num_words":35293,"start":5800,"end":6009},[35285,35287,35289,35291],{"text":35286,"start":5800,"end":5821},"Ja, wenns mal richtig schnell gehen sollte.",{"text":35288,"start":5825,"end":5939},"Und ja, und dann hab ich halt eigentlich, bin ich dann in diese Webentwicklung sozusagen über HTML irgendwie selbst beigebracht, Slash Schule son bisschen, weil das ja, war jetzt auch nicht, war ja auch viel Lehrer, glaube ich, relativ neu damals.",{"text":35290,"start":5943,"end":5969},"Und ja, und hab dann irgendwie mir das irgendwie selber beigebracht.",{"text":35292,"start":5973,"end":6009},"Ich weiß nicht, ob damals das schon self HTML war, diese Website, wo man irgendwie",74,{"sentences":35295,"speaker":129,"num_words":35212,"start":6009,"end":6020},[35296],{"text":35297,"start":6009,"end":6020},"alles Ganz gut.",{"sentences":35299,"speaker":108,"num_words":35306,"start":6025,"end":6103},[35300,35302,35304],{"text":35301,"start":6025,"end":6032},"Nachschauen konnte.",{"text":35303,"start":6034,"end":6095},"Vom auch hier, wie hieß der noch dieser Marki Tag, wo man so Laufschriften machen konnte und diese ganze Zeug.",{"text":35305,"start":6098,"end":6103},"Also ich",24,{"sentences":35308,"speaker":129,"num_words":35311,"start":6103,"end":6140},[35309],{"text":35310,"start":6103,"end":6140},"bin aber sehr stolz, dass wir heute auf der Programmierwebseite noch haben.",12,{"sentences":35313,"speaker":672,"num_words":35321,"start":6140,"end":6240},[35314,35315,35317,35319,35320],{"text":3039,"start":6140,"end":6143},{"text":35316,"start":6143,"end":6207},"Ja, aber heute ist es halt eine BUJS Komponente, die irgendwie mit zweihundert Zeilen groß ist oder so, diesen Effekt zu haben.",{"text":35318,"start":6207,"end":6232},"Und früher war's halt markim mit Ein Tag.",{"text":3039,"start":6232,"end":6236},{"text":3039,"start":6239,"end":6240},33,{"sentences":35323,"speaker":672,"num_words":35329,"start":6240,"end":6304},[35324,35325,35327],{"text":3039,"start":6240,"end":6243},{"text":35326,"start":6246,"end":6284},"Am besten auch damals ja schon immer kombiniert mit dem Blinktag noch so, ja?",{"text":35328,"start":6284,"end":6304},"Das muss muss ja blinken beim Durchlaufen.",22,{"sentences":35331,"speaker":108,"num_words":35342,"start":6308,"end":6578},[35332,35334,35336,35338,35340],{"text":35333,"start":6308,"end":6312},"Na ja.",{"text":35335,"start":6312,"end":6436},"Na ja, zumindest hab ich auch das dann eigentlich, also ich glaub so ab neunzehn zwanzig dann, ja, son bisschen zum Geschäft gemacht, dass ich so für für auch lokale Unternehmen, die irgendwie alle so, hey, wir wollen ins Internet, dann halt so Webseiten gebaut habe.",{"text":35337,"start":6439,"end":6467},"Auch was ich ja irgendwie damals gemacht hab, ist Design.",{"text":35339,"start":6467,"end":6485},"Das hat mich immer auch schon schon interessiert.",{"text":35341,"start":6488,"end":6578},"Also ich hab auch ja son Gefühl für Ästhetik, Farben, Formen und Fonts irgendwie gehabt und hab sozusagen da son bisschen aus einer Hand letzten Endes Websitegestaltung und Implementierung dann gemacht.",97,{"sentences":35344,"speaker":108,"num_words":35353,"start":6578,"end":6921},[35345,35347,35349,35351],{"text":35346,"start":6578,"end":6709},"Das war zu Anfangszeiten, weil's halt auch irgendwie vor mein Studium noch alles irgendwie selbst zusammengestückelt, war noch relativ, ich mein, wie das auch damals war, so vier Programmiersprachen in einer Datei irgendwie so HTML, PHP CSS und Java Script in einer Datei so.",{"text":35348,"start":6709,"end":6720},"Aber es hat funktioniert.",{"text":35350,"start":6720,"end":6850},"Das hat auch so irgendwie irgendwie lange gehalten und ich glaub mittlerweile oder auch dann hab ich auch irgendwann gelernt, so was irgendwie gut zu strukturieren und wartbar und nicht mal irgendwie per FDP einfach nur aufm Server hochzuschieben und die Datei zu überschreiben und Co.",{"text":35352,"start":6850,"end":6921},"Genau, das war so eigentlich das erste Mal, dass ich dann ja, letzten Endes auch gegen Bezahlung dann halt irgendwie halbwegs sinnvoll Code entwickelt habe.",119,{"sentences":35355,"speaker":672,"num_words":35168,"start":6923,"end":7044},[35356,35358,35360],{"text":35357,"start":6923,"end":6969},"Waren das damals alles so, ich sag mal, statische Content- oder Visitenktenseiten so ungefähr, ne?",{"text":35359,"start":6969,"end":7013},"Oder waren das wirklich schon Webanwendungen, Plattformen, irgendwas, die selbst das das Produkt waren?",{"text":35361,"start":7013,"end":7044},"Oder war es immer nur eine Verlängerung einer schon bestehenden Firma?",{"sentences":35363,"speaker":108,"num_words":35374,"start":7047,"end":7466},[35364,35366,35368,35370,35372],{"text":35365,"start":7047,"end":7057},"Also das Produkt kam später.",{"text":35367,"start":7061,"end":7252},"Also wirklich so neunzehnhundertneunundneunzig und im Jahr zweitausend war's wirklich eher so Webvisitenkarte und ja, war son bisschen, also ich hab son bisschen mit mit mit serverseitigen Programmiersprachen angefangen, Aber wie gesagt, das war noch relativ chaotisch und ich würde sagen, die Seite war jetzt eher eine Visitenkarte, eine Vorstellung des Produktportfolios von 'ner Firma, als dass es jetzt eine wirkliche Applikation an sich war, dass da was passiert ist.",{"text":35369,"start":7255,"end":7319},"Genau, nach oder während meines Studiums hab ich dann wirklich für eine Webagentur gearbeitet und da war's dann viel mehr in 'ner Applikation eigentlich.",{"text":35371,"start":7319,"end":7352},"Da hab ich dann ja letzten Endes Shops gemacht in erster Linie.",{"text":35373,"start":7355,"end":7466},"Irgendwie hat sich da bei mir sind immer die Fäden dann zusammengelaufen, dass ich derjenige war, der quasi in diesem Netzwerk, was wir dann irgendwann so hatten, so von Freelancern und Werkstudenten und Agenturen derjenige war, der quasi Onlineshops aufgesetzt haben.",152,{"sentences":35376,"speaker":108,"num_words":35151,"start":7466,"end":7500},[35377],{"text":35378,"start":7466,"end":7500},"Es gab damals schon so die ersten Open Source Shops, PHP.",{"sentences":35380,"speaker":129,"num_words":108,"start":7504,"end":7505},[35381],{"text":7507,"start":7504,"end":7505},{"sentences":35383,"speaker":108,"num_words":35311,"start":7509,"end":7543},[35384],{"text":35385,"start":7509,"end":7543},"Ja, es war eine vor Magento, es war irgendwie OS OS Commerce",{"sentences":35387,"speaker":672,"num_words":35128,"start":7543,"end":7555},[35388],{"text":35389,"start":7543,"end":7555},"war das damals so.",{"sentences":35391,"speaker":108,"num_words":35402,"start":7555,"end":7842},[35392,35394,35396,35398,35400],{"text":35393,"start":7555,"end":7581},"Genau, oder ich war irgendwie sone kommerzielle Variante.",{"text":35395,"start":7581,"end":7682},"Und da ich irgendwie auch wusste, wie so war die grundsätzlichen Möglichkeiten, irgendwie technischen Möglichkeiten, dass wir das so ungefähr aufgebaut ist, wusste ich dann auch, wie ich sozusagen das Design anpassen kann in welchen Templates.",{"text":35397,"start":7682,"end":7731},"Und somit war ich dann auch derjenige, der die designt hat, die Designs für die für die da gemacht hat.",{"text":35399,"start":7733,"end":7778},"Und und genau, also auch wieder son bisschen ja, aus einer Hand, aber da eben son bisschen eben mehr Applikationen.",{"text":35401,"start":7782,"end":7842},"Das heißt, mehr so mit Payment sich rumzuschlagen und mit irgendwie den Produkten und CSVs importieren und und ja, genau.",104,{"sentences":35404,"speaker":129,"num_words":35128,"start":7842,"end":7852},[35405],{"text":35406,"start":7842,"end":7852},"Was hast Du betreuen?",{"sentences":35408,"speaker":672,"num_words":108,"start":7852,"end":7856},[35409],{"text":1042,"start":7852,"end":7856},{"sentences":35411,"speaker":129,"num_words":35212,"start":7856,"end":7865},[35412],{"text":35413,"start":7856,"end":7865},"hast Du studiert?",{"sentences":35415,"speaker":108,"num_words":35425,"start":7865,"end":7974},[35416,35417,35419,35421,35423],{"text":35115,"start":7865,"end":7871},{"text":35418,"start":7874,"end":7887},"Ich hab Informatik studiert eigentlich.",{"text":35420,"start":7890,"end":7925},"Das war auch, ja, glaube ich, von jeher irgendwie klar, dass ich das mache.",{"text":35422,"start":7928,"end":7951},"Ich hab zunächst in Bonn studiert an der Uni.",{"text":35424,"start":7955,"end":7974},"Das war ehrlich gesagt nicht so mein Ding.",38,{"sentences":35427,"speaker":108,"num_words":35342,"start":7978,"end":8239},[35428,35430,35432,35434,35436],{"text":35429,"start":7978,"end":7999},"Das war schon einfach 'n krass theoretischer Studiengang.",{"text":35431,"start":8002,"end":8126},"Ich weiß noch, dass mein Mitbewohner in Bonn, also ich bin nach Bonn gezogen, in eine WG, der war son paar Semester vor mir, mir irgendwie sagte, ja, hey hier zwei, drei meiner Kollegen, die haben irgendwie das ganze Studium durchgezogen, ohne eine Zeile zu programmieren.",{"text":35433,"start":8129,"end":8142},"Und das war damals irgendwie die Zeit.",{"text":35435,"start":8142,"end":8193},"Zweiter Faktor war son bisschen, wir waren ein Semester, also im ersten Semester Informatik waren wir über tausend Leute.",{"text":35437,"start":8196,"end":8239},"Es war, glaube ich, auch so die Welle der New Economy und alle wollten dann auch Informatik.",{"sentences":35439,"speaker":108,"num_words":35450,"start":8243,"end":8556},[35440,35442,35444,35446,35448],{"text":35441,"start":8243,"end":8338},"Diese Gruppe hat sich dann, glaube ich, in den vier Semestern, wo ich an der Uni Bonn war, quasi immer wieder halbiert, sodass wir dann irgendwie bei hundert fünfundzwanzig angekommen sind, so ne, vier Semestern.",{"text":35443,"start":8341,"end":8399},"Aber ja, es war halt wirklich pur Also ne, die Informatik, ich weiß nicht, also das eine wunderbare Uni, eine schöne Stadt, ne.",{"text":35445,"start":8399,"end":8432},"Also es war damals einfach für mich so einer mathematischen Fakultät aufgehängt.",{"text":35447,"start":8432,"end":8446},"Das war sehr, sehr matelastig.",{"text":35449,"start":8450,"end":8556},"Ich hab mich mit theoretisch an Dramatik mit Turingmaschinen auseinandergesetzt, mit Programmiersprachen, die eigentlich keiner mehr nutzt oder die eben nur für die sonen Art von Selbstzweck irgendwie hatten und damit konnte ich halt überhaupt nichts irgendwie anfangen.",113,{"sentences":35452,"speaker":108,"num_words":35463,"start":8556,"end":8963},[35453,35455,35457,35459,35461],{"text":35454,"start":8556,"end":8604},"Ich fand son paar, sagen wir mal, theoretische Grundlagen ganz gut, aber da hat's mir auch gereicht.",{"text":35456,"start":8607,"end":8638},"Ich wollte, also ich hatte immer den Drang, es dann auch anzuwenden.",{"text":35458,"start":8641,"end":8800},"Und deswegen bin ich dann quasi nach Bonn quasi hab ich geschaut, dass ich irgendwie meine Koffer packe und möglichst vielscheine von der Uni mitnehme und bin dann nach Berlin gezogen mit 'nem Freund und hab dann an der Beuthhochschule, also die hieß damals TFH, also eine Fachhochschule quasi zu zu Ende studiert und 'n Diplom gemacht noch.",{"text":35460,"start":8800,"end":8859},"Ich glaube, wir waren ein eins der letzten oder vorletzte Diplom Abschlussjahrgang und ja, und das war natürlich was ganz anderes, ne.",{"text":35462,"start":8859,"end":8963},"Also da waren auch die die die Dozenten, Dozentinnen quasi aus der aus der Wirtschaft, Da hat man sehr viel natürlich über Praktika und mit Firmen zusammengearbeitet und hat entsprechend da ja wirklich dieses Angewandte gehabt.",145,{"sentences":35465,"speaker":108,"num_words":35476,"start":8963,"end":9353},[35466,35468,35470,35472,35474],{"text":35467,"start":8963,"end":8995},"Und das war auch nicht nur Informatik, sondern Medieninformatik hab ich studiert.",{"text":35469,"start":8995,"end":9060},"Ich hatte zwar trotzdem dann Software Schwerpunkt, aber spannend waren halt auch so diese Sachen links und rechts, die man eine Hand hatte, ne?",{"text":35471,"start":9060,"end":9149},"Von ja BWL ganz klassisch über Medienrecht über ja, klar auch wieder Mathe, aber genau, ich hab zum Beispiel auch einen einen ja chinesischkurs belegt über zwei Semester.",{"text":35473,"start":9152,"end":9211},"Genau, also das war irgendwie schon, hatte eine Breite und mir hat dann irgendwie dann doch immer, weiß nicht, die Breite eher Spaß gemacht.",{"text":35475,"start":9211,"end":9353},"Das heißt irgendwie son, ja, irgendwie son Blick so auf viele Sachen als nicht jetzt im, weiß ich nicht, nur irgendwie ausschließlich ein Thema und auch insbesondere an der Uni jetzt son bisschen so dieses selbstzweckmäßige, dafür ausgelegt, dass man an der Uni bleibt und in die Forschung geht, in die Lehre geht.",141,{"sentences":35478,"speaker":108,"num_words":35483,"start":9356,"end":9401},[35479,35481],{"text":35480,"start":9356,"end":9384},"Ja, und da war mir dieses Praktische und diesen Überblick bekommen.",{"text":35482,"start":9386,"end":9401},"Hat zu mir persönlich besser gepasst.",17,{"sentences":35485,"speaker":129,"num_words":35491,"start":9404,"end":9627},[35486,35488,35489],{"text":35487,"start":9404,"end":9461},"In den Jahren danach warst Du, vermute ich mal, an verschiedenen Stellen vielleicht auch im Recruiting Prozess irgendwie eingebunden.",{"text":1268,"start":9464,"end":9465},{"text":35490,"start":9467,"end":9627},"Hat deine eigene Erfahrung irgendwie die Sicht, wie ist das richtige Wort, nicht geschärft, sondern irgendwie Also wenn Du heute auf Bewerbung guckst und den Unterschied hast irgendwie zwischen Fachhochschulen und Unis und, ne, reine Informatik und vielleicht anderen Randbereichen, Glaubst Du, dass Du durch deine eigene Erfahrung da auch 'n bisschen anders drauf blickst und",76,{"sentences":35493,"speaker":108,"num_words":35087,"start":9629,"end":9891},[35494,35496,35498,35500,35502],{"text":35495,"start":9629,"end":9654},"Ja, also ich versuch da irgendwie nicht bei's zu sein.",{"text":35497,"start":9658,"end":9690},"Wenn jetzt jemand irgendwie an der an der Uni Ewigkeiten studiert hat, eigentlich nicht.",{"text":35499,"start":9693,"end":9778},"Ich finde, was schon ausschlaggebend ist, weniger das, was man sozusagen an an Hochschulabschluss macht, sondern wirklich an wirkliche Arbeitserfahrung hat und und da eine gewisse Diversität auch drin hat.",{"text":35501,"start":9781,"end":9820},"Dass man verschiedene Strukturen und und und die hast in verschiedenen Setups gearbeitet hat.",{"text":35503,"start":9820,"end":9891},"Ich das finde ich eigentlich viel wichtiger als hier zu sagen, okay, per se ist ist die Uni irgendwie, wäre ja eben besser oder schlechter als die FH.",{"sentences":35505,"speaker":108,"num_words":672,"start":9895,"end":9898},[35506],{"text":35507,"start":9895,"end":9898},"Gut, aber",{"sentences":35509,"speaker":672,"num_words":35223,"start":9898,"end":10169},[35510,35512,35514,35516,35518],{"text":35511,"start":9898,"end":9936},"Dennis seine Frage weitergedacht oder deine Antwort weitergedacht, könnte ich ja auch sagen.",{"text":35513,"start":9939,"end":10024},"In der Regel hast Du ja an Fachhochschulen viel mehr Praxisbezug oder Möglichkeiten, eben Praxiserfahrung zu sammeln durch Zusammenarbeit mit Firmen, durch Praktika, durch Werkstudentenstellen, durch durch was auch immer.",{"text":35515,"start":10024,"end":10036},"Und dann wiederum Ja.",{"text":35517,"start":10040,"end":10074},"Müsste ich dir ja schon unterstellen, dass Du zumindest nicht Ach so.",{"text":35519,"start":10077,"end":10169},"Nicht weil es eine Fachhochschule ist, sondern durch die Art und Weise, wie sie unterrichten, ja oder wie wie das Lehrangebot aufgebaut ist, dass Du da vielleicht doch sonen leichten Vorzug dann sehen würdest.",{"sentences":35521,"speaker":108,"num_words":35532,"start":10173,"end":10448},[35522,35524,35526,35528,35530],{"text":35523,"start":10173,"end":10179},"Ja, also durchaus.",{"text":35525,"start":10179,"end":10273},"Ich meine, klar fördert das genau das, was ich gesagt habe, die die Arbeitserfahrung, die Anwendungserfahrung und auch wirklich sozusagen das Gelehrte quasi ein Nutzerproblem zuzuwenden und versuchen dieses Nutzerproblem zu lösen.",{"text":35527,"start":10273,"end":10299},"Also ich find, das ist so irgendwie das Wichtigste.",{"text":35529,"start":10299,"end":10388},"Und wenn ich dann an dem Beispiel von meiner Uni irgendwie irgendwie was habe, wo das irgendwie gar nicht zum Thema wird, dann ja, aber trotzdem gibt's super Universitätsstudiengänge auch, die eben auch diesen Praxisbezug haben.",{"text":35531,"start":10388,"end":10448},"Das ist jetzt nicht per se, klar, die FH halt son bisschen mehr grundsätzlich, aber ist ja auch son bisschen die Frage Breite oder Tiefe.",105,{"sentences":35534,"speaker":108,"num_words":35491,"start":10448,"end":10651},[35535,35537,35539,35541,35543],{"text":35536,"start":10448,"end":10456},"Was suche ich?",{"text":35538,"start":10456,"end":10503},"Such ich jetzt irgendwie einen einen irgendwie also Machine Learning Learning Experten in der Tiefe?",{"text":35540,"start":10503,"end":10565},"Dann dann suche ich natürlich eher auch jemanden, der in der Tiefe sehr lange gearbeitet habe oder suche ich son son Allrounder, Full Stack.",{"text":35542,"start":10568,"end":10625},"Da gehe ich natürlich, suche ich eine Breite und so das Thema Kommunikation spielt ja irgendwie auch eine Rolle und so weiter.",{"text":35544,"start":10625,"end":10651},"Also das hängt ja wirklich auch dann doch von der Rolle ab.",{"sentences":35546,"speaker":129,"num_words":34980,"start":10655,"end":10674},[35547,35548],{"text":10659,"start":10655,"end":10656},{"text":35549,"start":10661,"end":10674},"Was ist nach der Uni passiert?",{"sentences":35551,"speaker":108,"num_words":35558,"start":10677,"end":10817},[35552,35554,35556],{"text":35553,"start":10677,"end":10746},"Ja, während hatte ich ja eben schon, ich hab genau als Freelancer, Werkstudent so im Web Frontend Bereich würde ich jetzt mal Ja.",{"text":35555,"start":10749,"end":10795},"Sagen gearbeitet und hab dann über quasi, das praktische Semester bin ich an die Deutsche Telekom gekommen.",{"text":35557,"start":10795,"end":10817},"Das war hier in Berlin, sondern es hieß",48,{"sentences":35560,"speaker":672,"num_words":35128,"start":10819,"end":10830},[35561],{"text":35562,"start":10819,"end":10830},"Die Spätfolgen von Bonn.",{"sentences":35564,"speaker":108,"num_words":35575,"start":10834,"end":11071},[35565,35567,35569,35571,35573],{"text":35566,"start":10834,"end":10847},"Die Spätfolgen von Bonn, genau.",{"text":35568,"start":10850,"end":10857},"Aber in Berlin witzigerweise.",{"text":35570,"start":10860,"end":10928},"Ich meine, die die haben ja sozusagen, klar, ihren Hauptstadt in Bonn und und auch Darmstadt sozusagen, aber hatten hier in Berlin son Außenposten, das hieß Innovationsgesellschaft.",{"text":35572,"start":10932,"end":11023},"Son kleines Team, das waren irgendwie so, weiß nicht, fünfzig, sechzig Leute, wenn ichs richtig in Erinnerung habe, die ja letzten Endes so ausgegründet son bisschen Start-up-mäßig Innovationsprojekte ja, gemacht haben.",{"text":35574,"start":11023,"end":11071},"Und da bin ich irgendwie drauf aufmerksam geworden und da hab ich dann sozusagen mein praktisches Semester gemacht während des Studiums.",88,{"sentences":35577,"speaker":108,"num_words":35584,"start":11074,"end":11266},[35578,35580,35582],{"text":35579,"start":11074,"end":11104},"Und dann gleichzeitig auch meine Teil meiner Diplomarbeit und mein erster Vollzeitjob.",{"text":35581,"start":11108,"end":11160},"Das ging quasi alles so ineinander über und diese Innovationsgesellschaft, die haben halt, ja, verschiedenste Projekte innerhalb der Telekom gemacht.",{"text":35583,"start":11160,"end":11266},"Das war einmal so dieses, ja, Webportal Geschäft so, da gab's Fußball d e, da gab's aber auch die t-online d e, wo Features gebaut wurden für, man muss bedenken, die t-online d e war damals immer noch die",71,{"sentences":35586,"speaker":672,"num_words":35212,"start":11269,"end":11279},[35587],{"text":35588,"start":11269,"end":11279},"Standard Startseite für",{"sentences":35590,"speaker":108,"num_words":35600,"start":11279,"end":11449},[35591,35593,35594,35596,35598],{"text":35592,"start":11279,"end":11286},"alle Analysten.",{"text":11293,"start":11290,"end":11291},{"text":35595,"start":11295,"end":11305},"Deutsche Webseite, ja.",{"text":35597,"start":11308,"end":11341},"Weil sie einfach der Standardlink irgendwie ist bei bei den T-Online Usern.",{"text":35599,"start":11344,"end":11449},"Genau, dann aber das Thema, was ich sozusagen dann auch mit 'nem, das war allen Dingen ganz schön, weil dann so mit mir son Team eigentlich erstmalig also von von sozusagen Entwickler, Entwicklerinnen geheiert wurden, so in verschiedenen Level.",57,{"sentences":35602,"speaker":108,"num_words":35612,"start":11449,"end":11820},[35603,35605,35607,35609,35610],{"text":35604,"start":11449,"end":11535},"Die haben halt sozusagen erst ja die Entwicklung outgesourct über über Agenturen, aber dann irgendwann realisiert, es wär cool, wenn wir hier 'n Team aufbauen und da war ich halt Teil von.",{"text":35606,"start":11535,"end":11600},"Das war echt ganz cool und wir haben halt in erster Linie dann vor Ort so IP TV und Web TV Projekte gemacht.",{"text":35608,"start":11602,"end":11647},"Es gab ja sozusagen damals dieses Produkt entertain, das heißt jetzt, glaube ich, inzwischen Magenta TV.",{"text":1268,"start":11651,"end":11652},{"text":35611,"start":11655,"end":11820},"Das war ja diese diese Box, die man sozusagen mit seinem Anschluss irgendwie dann bekommen hat, worüber man ja dann TV, Streaming sozusagen analog zum, ne, Kabelanschluss hat die Telekom dann über ihre neuen VDSL Leitung dann irgendwie sozusagen ja lineares Fernsehen ja gestreamt und diese Box, ne, kennt man ja mit Mediatheken und Co.",127,{"sentences":35614,"speaker":108,"num_words":35625,"start":11820,"end":12368},[35615,35617,35619,35621,35623],{"text":35616,"start":11820,"end":11926},"Und wir hatten dann son internes Parallelprojekt, was auch eine Set up Box war, die aber anbieterunabhängig war, die wir ja, und das war echt megaspannend, quasi mit der Hardware, die wurde sozusagen gesourct und dann halt der Softwarestack.",{"text":35618,"start":11930,"end":12011},"Also als ich quasi ankam, waren große Teile natürlich schon da und es war echt, ja, kaltes Wasser, würde ich mal sagen, weil es eine riesenmonsterhafte J2E irgendwie Applikation war.",{"text":35620,"start":12011,"end":12152},"Ich meine, ich kannte Java, ich kannte auch Java so ausm Studium natürlich und und auch, weil ich mich mit Mobile Endlungen, mit J2ME damals son bisschen beschäftigt hatte, aber das war irgendwie so Monsterding und auch mit 'nem webbrowser, also also browserbasiertem Frontend, was auch superlaggy und langsam war.",{"text":35622,"start":12152,"end":12295},"Aber genau, die Idee war irgendwie so S-Box, SDK, also dass halt dann Drittanbieter dort ihre Apps quasi ja alle draufsetzen können wie Mediatheken und die Idee war, dass das, ja, dann so als Alternativprodukt quasi auch für für für für andere Internetanschlüsse, also nicht providerabhängig sozusagen verkauft wird.",{"text":35624,"start":12298,"end":12368},"Ja, und das wurde dann relativ schnell eingestellt und ja, auch natürlich son bisschen aus diesem interne Gedanken natürlich, weil auch Entertainment dann sich quasi gefestigt hat.",195,{"sentences":35627,"speaker":108,"num_words":35638,"start":12370,"end":12603},[35628,35630,35632,35634,35636],{"text":35629,"start":12370,"end":12431},"Und wir haben dann auch, das heißt IP TV, uns in diesem Web TV Bereich damals, das war zweitausendsieben, zweitausend, nee, zweitausendsechs sieben so.",{"text":35631,"start":12433,"end":12504},"Wir haben 'n Videoportal gebaut, das war damals ja, PHP mit mit Frameworks und quo und 'nem 'nem Flashplayer, einen Videoportal zum Thema Webserien.",{"text":35633,"start":12508,"end":12553},"Das war damals son bisschen so die Erkenntnis, hey, es gibt diese Videoinhalte im Internet, so zweitausendsechs, ne.",{"text":35635,"start":12556,"end":12573},"Die sind im Durchschnitt drei Minuten lang.",{"text":35637,"start":12576,"end":12603},"Hat sich auch geändert, würde heute auch keiner mehr irgendwie behaupten.",84,{"sentences":35640,"speaker":108,"num_words":35651,"start":12606,"end":12979},[35641,35643,35645,35647,35649],{"text":35642,"start":12606,"end":12686},"Und wir bauen da jetzt sozusagen auch mit Content Creatoren, also professionellen und auch ne guten Schauspielern, so dieses Web Serienformat, das ist so die Zukunft fürs Internet.",{"text":35644,"start":12686,"end":12793},"Das heißt so Folgen, die so drei, vier Minuten lang sind, fünf Minuten und dann irgendwie zehn, zwanzig Folgen und dann so ja genau also Serienformate und da haben wir sozusagen dann son Webportal für gebaut, das hieß 3 Minute.",{"text":35646,"start":12796,"end":12838},"Und genau und da hab ich dann, da gab's, sagen wir mal, einen sehr einschneidenden Moment.",{"text":35648,"start":12838,"end":12881},"Ich weiß nicht, wie ihr damit fühlt zweitausendsieben, wo das erste iPhone aufn Markt kam.",{"text":35650,"start":12884,"end":12979},"Und da ich da ja nun mal in der Telekom war, haben wir da relativ schnell an Tag eins halt das direkt zum US Launch auch in Deutschland dann das iPhone bekommen und das hat mich echt so völlig irgendwie begeistert.",140,{"sentences":35653,"speaker":108,"num_words":35663,"start":12982,"end":13106},[35654,35656,35658,35660,35661],{"text":35655,"start":12982,"end":13009},"Und da hab ich mich halt sozusagen eigentlich der Mobile Entwicklung zugewandt.",{"text":35657,"start":13013,"end":13037},"Also ja, was ja auch erst mal nicht ging, ne.",{"text":35659,"start":13037,"end":13076},"War ja irgendwie son halbes Jahr oder so, bis der App Store irgendwie rauskam.",{"text":3039,"start":13076,"end":13080},{"text":35662,"start":13083,"end":13106},"Über über die die Jillbreaks nur irgendwie möglich.",45,{"sentences":35665,"speaker":108,"num_words":35676,"start":13106,"end":13397},[35666,35668,35670,35672,35674],{"text":35667,"start":13106,"end":13187},"Da habe ich mich das nur dann reingefuchst, aber dann, was ich schon letzten Endes gemacht habe, relativ schnell dann für dieses Videoportal 3 Minute quasi eine iPhone App gebaut.",{"text":35669,"start":13187,"end":13227},"Das heißt also Videostreaming, so Content Discovery Suche und Co für diese Serien.",{"text":35671,"start":13227,"end":13300},"Und wir haben natürlich auch so dann in der in der Nachfolgeversion dann ja diese Sachen genutzt wie Push Notifications und Co, irgendwie Leute auf neuen Content.",{"text":35673,"start":13300,"end":13321},"Also 'n bisschen wie son Podcast Player eigentlich.",{"text":35675,"start":13323,"end":13397},"Und das war ja, war damals so die erste iPhone App, die ich gebaut habe und auch witzigerweise die erste iPhone App, die die Deutsche Telekom also unter ihrem Namen releast hat.",110,{"sentences":35678,"speaker":108,"num_words":35207,"start":13400,"end":13533},[35679,35681,35683],{"text":35680,"start":13400,"end":13481},"Und ich weiß, dass das noch 'n Riesendrama war juristisch und ich dann in 'nem Call mit irgendwie Anwälten war und nur gehört habe, ey, das ist aber kalifornisches Recht.",{"text":35682,"start":13485,"end":13492},"Das können wir nicht.",{"text":35684,"start":13494,"end":13533},"Aber ja, das war dann so der Livegang der ersten ersten iPhone App der Deutschen Telekom.",{"sentences":35686,"speaker":129,"num_words":108,"start":13536,"end":13537},[35687],{"text":13539,"start":13536,"end":13537},{"sentences":35689,"speaker":672,"num_words":35692,"start":13541,"end":13593},[35690],{"text":35691,"start":13541,"end":13593},"War das war das mit der Grund, warum es dich nach der Deutschen Telekom nie mehr zu 'nem Großkonzern gezogen hat?",21,{"sentences":35694,"speaker":108,"num_words":35705,"start":13596,"end":13876},[35695,35697,35699,35701,35703],{"text":35696,"start":13596,"end":13602},"Zunächst, ja.",{"text":35698,"start":13604,"end":13608},"Zunächst, genau.",{"text":35700,"start":13608,"end":13664},"Also ich hatte ja, also insbesondere wurde ja diese Innovationsgesellschaft auch während ich da war, so ganz langsam zurückintegriert in den Großkonzern.",{"text":35702,"start":13667,"end":13757},"Also wir waren dann relativ schnell einfach in der Abteilung, nicht mal son Also wir waren vorher son unabhängige, ja, Entität mit auch allen Funktionen, die man so braucht, inklusive HR und so.",{"text":35704,"start":13757,"end":13876},"Und das wurde dann relativ schnell während ich da war, hab ich gemerkt, okay, da gehen so die Fühler der des Großkonzerns immer mehr rein und irgendwann durften wir nicht mehr unsere schönen Rechner benutzen, die einfach im Netz waren mit Admin Rechten.",102,{"sentences":35707,"speaker":108,"num_words":35207,"start":13880,"end":14006},[35708,35710,35712],{"text":35709,"start":13880,"end":13894},"Und ja, das war schon, ja.",{"text":35711,"start":13897,"end":13993},"Aber war eine super Zeit und ich finde auch insbesondere eine sehr lehrreiche Zeit am Anfang der Karriere, sich da einfach mal so neben dem so irgendwie Agenturbusiness, was vorher war mal son großes Konzern von innen zu sehen Ja.",{"text":35713,"start":13995,"end":14006},"Mit all seiner Politik.",{"sentences":35715,"speaker":129,"num_words":35723,"start":14009,"end":14234},[35716,35717,35719,35721],{"text":3039,"start":14009,"end":14010},{"text":35718,"start":14010,"end":14053},"Nee, also iPhone Launch damals ist auf jeden Fall auch große Ding, was bei mir hängen geblieben ist.",{"text":35720,"start":14055,"end":14156},"Das war gut bei mir noch relativ am Anfang vom Studium, aber hat dadurch natürlich dann auch mein mein weiteres Studium irgendwie stark beeinflusst und die Dinge, die ich danach dann getan habe, dann erst mal als iOS Entwickler zu arbeiten.",{"text":35722,"start":14159,"end":14234},"Aber ja, man war halt einfach, genau, ich hatte wahrscheinlich nicht so nicht so schnell den Zugang wie Du damals dann zu dem Gerät, aber spätestens ab dem iPhone drei g.",91,{"sentences":35725,"speaker":672,"num_words":34974,"start":14238,"end":14284},[35726,35728],{"text":35727,"start":14238,"end":14249},"Also ich hab ja geschummelt.",{"text":35729,"start":14249,"end":14284},"Mein erstes iPhone war ja 'n iPod Touch, weil ich mir auch keinen",{"sentences":35731,"speaker":108,"num_words":108,"start":14287,"end":14288},[35732],{"text":14290,"start":14287,"end":14288},{"sentences":35734,"speaker":672,"num_words":35128,"start":14292,"end":14302},[35735],{"text":35736,"start":14292,"end":14302},"IPhone iPhone leisten konnte.",{"sentences":35738,"speaker":108,"num_words":35212,"start":14302,"end":14311},[35739,35740],{"text":14306,"start":14302,"end":14304},{"text":35741,"start":14304,"end":14311},"Aber ich",{"sentences":35743,"speaker":672,"num_words":35748,"start":14311,"end":14492},[35744,35746],{"text":35745,"start":14311,"end":14466},"war ja damals auch an der Uni und ich hab gedacht, na gut, an der Uni habe ich überall WLAN, zu Hause habe ich WLAN, dann tut's der iPoduch auch und das bisschen im Zug hin- und hergefahren, das kriege ich so mit Offline Musik und Podcastfolgen irgendwie überbrückt und so war war das mein Einstieg damals.",{"text":35747,"start":14466,"end":14492},"Nicht ganz so dekadent wie bei Fabian hin, aber",66,{"sentences":35750,"speaker":108,"num_words":35755,"start":14494,"end":14633},[35751,35753],{"text":35752,"start":14494,"end":14510},"Nee, das war ja auch nicht funktional.",{"text":35754,"start":14513,"end":14633},"Das war ja auch nicht mein persönliches Gerät, das war natürlich 'n Filmgerät, aber ich hab genau das auch gemacht und mir natürlich erst mal 'n iPad gekauft, weil das war ja auch das Einzige, was man ja in Deutschland dann letzten Endes bald relativ zügig kaufen konnte, so.",56,{"sentences":35757,"speaker":672,"num_words":35755,"start":14636,"end":14785},[35758,35760],{"text":35759,"start":14636,"end":14725},"Abgesehen davon waren ja auch damals, selbst wenn man das Glück hatte, ein iPhone zu bekommen, woher auch immer ich hab dann später auch reinzukommen, weil da waren ja mobile Daten auch noch exorbitant vorher.",{"text":35761,"start":14725,"end":14785},"Das kannst Du heute auch keiner mehr vorstellen, dass ich für mein erstes Hundert Megabyte Paket fünfzehn Euro bezahlt hab, so.",{"sentences":35763,"speaker":108,"num_words":35558,"start":14787,"end":14906},[35764,35766,35768,35769],{"text":35765,"start":14787,"end":14837},"Ich weiß noch, dass ich auch das erste iPhone, eigene iPhone, das war 'n iPhone drei g in Italien bestellt habe.",{"text":35767,"start":14839,"end":14871},"Also das war, weil das hier in Deutschland, glaube ich, noch gelockt war oder so.",{"text":3039,"start":14871,"end":14874},{"text":35770,"start":14878,"end":14906},"Und dann, genau, hab ich das irgendwie irgendwie italienisches Album gehabt.",{"sentences":35772,"speaker":129,"num_words":672,"start":14908,"end":14912},[35773],{"text":35774,"start":14908,"end":14912},"Ach schön.",{"sentences":35776,"speaker":108,"num_words":35128,"start":14912,"end":14925},[35777,35778],{"text":3039,"start":14912,"end":14916},{"text":35779,"start":14916,"end":14925},"Schön, schöne Zeit.",{"sentences":35781,"speaker":129,"num_words":35786,"start":14927,"end":14968},[35782,35784],{"text":35783,"start":14927,"end":14932},"Gute Zeit.",{"text":35785,"start":14932,"end":14968},"Was war der Grund für dich, dass Du dann gesagt hast, tschüs, Deutsche Telekom?",16,{"sentences":35788,"speaker":108,"num_words":35798,"start":14971,"end":15233},[35789,35791,35793,35794,35796],{"text":35790,"start":14971,"end":14988},"Ja, ich mein, ich hab's irgendwie aufgezählt.",{"text":35792,"start":14988,"end":15036},"Ich mein, ich feier dann doch irgendwie vier Jahre da auch 3 Minutes hat 'n Ende genommen.",{"text":1268,"start":15036,"end":15039},{"text":35795,"start":15042,"end":15125},"Das ist, ich finde es aber megawichtig, weil ich finde gerade in, sagen wir mal so einmal so diesen kompletten Produkt lebensllebenszyklus Zyklus inklusive Sunset irgendwie mitzumachen, ist schon spannend.",{"text":35797,"start":15130,"end":15233},"Nein, auch traurig natürlich, wenn man halt irgendwie mehrere Jahre irgendwie die Arbeit irgendwo reinsteckt, aber ich weiß noch, wie ich dann wirklich so den letzten App Release hochgeladen habe, der dann nur noch son son son View Controller hat.",95,{"sentences":35800,"speaker":108,"num_words":35810,"start":15233,"end":15340},[35801,35803,35805,35806,35808],{"text":35802,"start":15233,"end":15256},"Ich bin damals, weil der so tschüs angezeigt hat.",{"text":35804,"start":15259,"end":15296},"Und man konnte ja quasi Apps nicht löschen, also von den Geräten der User.",{"text":1268,"start":15299,"end":15300},{"text":35807,"start":15302,"end":15311},"Und und ja, genau.",{"text":35809,"start":15311,"end":15340},"Und dann gab's noch so ein, zwei Projekte, die irgendwie ganz cool waren.",41,{"sentences":35812,"speaker":108,"num_words":35823,"start":15344,"end":15631},[35813,35815,35817,35819,35821],{"text":35814,"start":15344,"end":15373},"Für den Programmmanager zum Beispiel, da hab ich eine App mitgearbeitet.",{"text":35816,"start":15377,"end":15418},"Es war diese App, wo man halt den diese Box von unterwegs irgendwie programmieren konnte, dass irgendwas aufnimmt.",{"text":35818,"start":15422,"end":15592},"Genau, aber dann dann war irgendwie so die Luft raus und ich hatte dann doch irgendwie das Bedürfnis, so mich mit dieser aufkommenden Start up Welt in Berlin zu beschäftigen und bin erst mal Freiberufler geworden und hab dann eigentlich so das, was ich jetzt da so ja gelernt habe und es war jetzt schon super cool die Zeit ja bis hierhin gekommen, gerade so Schulung oder so was, ne.",{"text":35820,"start":15592,"end":15609},"Das hat man natürlich echt super bekommen.",{"text":35822,"start":15611,"end":15631},"Ich hab damals eben so Scrum Schulungen gemacht.",114,{"sentences":35825,"speaker":108,"num_words":35832,"start":15631,"end":16035},[35826,35828,35830],{"text":35827,"start":15631,"end":15719},"Ich glaube echt viele so Scrum Master, Product Owner, Advanced eins, zwei, drei und das direkt zu unserem Team irgendwie versucht, also also das gesamte Team hat das gemacht an angewendet.",{"text":35829,"start":15722,"end":15968},"Natürlich waren wir irgendwie son bisschen so 'ner so 'ner so 'ner so 'ner Bubble innerhalb dieses Konzerns, was auch nicht so richtig Sinn der Sache ist, aber so das alles was ich da so gelernt habe, so Mobile Entwicklung, aber eben auch diese Prozesszeit, ich war irgendwie Product Owner auch in der Rolle für dieses Videoportal teilweise, habe ich dann letzten Endes mit in meine Freiberuflichkeit genommen und dann diverse kleine und mittelgroße Projekte gemacht, App Projekte, so Konzept Consulting Projekte, aber auch so, ja, Agile Coaching würde man heute sagen.",{"text":35831,"start":15970,"end":16035},"Ja, genau, und das war dann son bisschen so diese Zeit, bis dann ich zweitausendvierzehn dann auch über diese Freiberuflichkeit letzten Endes zu Kitchen Stories, ja, gekommen bin.",151,{"sentences":35834,"speaker":672,"num_words":108,"start":16035,"end":16038},[35835],{"text":1268,"start":16035,"end":16038},{"sentences":35837,"speaker":108,"num_words":34974,"start":16041,"end":16094},[35838,35840],{"text":35839,"start":16041,"end":16090},"Was ja dann eigentlich wirklich so mein erster richtiger CTO Job war mit allen Gedöns, was dazugehört.",{"text":862,"start":16093,"end":16094},{"sentences":35842,"speaker":672,"num_words":35116,"start":16096,"end":16119},[35843],{"text":35844,"start":16096,"end":16119},"Jetzt müssen wir Kitchen Stories, glaube ich, noch mal vorstellen.",{"sentences":35846,"speaker":108,"num_words":35212,"start":16122,"end":16128},[35847],{"text":35848,"start":16122,"end":16128},"Genau, Kitchen Stories.",{"sentences":35850,"speaker":129,"num_words":35483,"start":16128,"end":16173},[35851,35852],{"text":3039,"start":16128,"end":16132},{"text":35853,"start":16132,"end":16173},"Egal, erst mal fragen, ob für Fabian das selbstverständlich ist, dass jeder deutsche Kitchen Stories kennt.",{"sentences":35855,"speaker":108,"num_words":35146,"start":16177,"end":16260},[35856,35858,35860],{"text":35857,"start":16177,"end":16183},"Wahrscheinlich nicht.",{"text":35859,"start":16183,"end":16246},"Ich weiß, ihr habt ja den Tim von Chefkoch hier gehabt, der der der ist, willst Du dir gesagt, mit dem bin ich zur Schule gegangen.",{"text":35861,"start":16246,"end":16260},"Also wir kennen uns von früher.",{"sentences":35863,"speaker":129,"num_words":672,"start":16260,"end":16267},[35864],{"text":35037,"start":16260,"end":16267},{"sentences":35866,"speaker":108,"num_words":35877,"start":16269,"end":16509},[35867,35869,35871,35873,35875],{"text":35868,"start":16269,"end":16288},"Und der muss, glaube ich, Chefkoch nicht erklären.",{"text":35870,"start":16291,"end":16327},"Kitchen Stories geht natürlich schon in eine ähnliche Richtung, hat so schon einen anderen Schwerpunkt.",{"text":35872,"start":16330,"end":16354},"Klar, geht's Kochen, wie der Name sagt.",{"text":35874,"start":16357,"end":16441},"Und und so über so dieses reine Rezept hinaus hat Kitchen Storys gerade so das Thema, so sehr früh haben wir so das Thema Videoinhalte, Anleitungen das Ganze sehr interaktiv gemacht.",{"text":35876,"start":16444,"end":16509},"Punkt eins Unterschied und Punkt zwei, ich mein, Deutschland ist zwar so mit der größte Markt, aber Kitchen Stories ist sehr schnell international quasi gegangen.",86,{"sentences":35879,"speaker":108,"num_words":35886,"start":16511,"end":16651},[35880,35882,35884],{"text":35881,"start":16511,"end":16540},"Kann ich leider noch kurz das zu erzählen, also zwölf Sprachen.",{"text":35883,"start":16543,"end":16569},"Irgendwie haben wir haben wir inklusive Chinesisch gemacht unsere Inhalte.",{"text":35885,"start":16569,"end":16651},"Also es war son bisschen, es ist so die Mischung aus Editorial, also Inhalten, die wir selber eigens produziert haben, muss man so sagen, wirklich in unserem Büro in 'ner",51,{"sentences":35888,"speaker":672,"num_words":672,"start":16654,"end":16660},[35889],{"text":35890,"start":16654,"end":16660},"Küche Mhm.",{"sentences":35892,"speaker":108,"num_words":35903,"start":16662,"end":16933},[35893,35895,35897,35899,35901],{"text":35894,"start":16662,"end":16684},"Mit Videos, Fotos und und und Köchen.",{"text":35896,"start":16688,"end":16731},"Und dann das zweite Standbein ist so die Community, wie's halt eben auch bei Chefkoch ist, aber international.",{"text":35898,"start":16734,"end":16776},"Also da haben wir dann so, ja, letzten Endes Community Rezept, aber auch so diese typischen Community Features.",{"text":35900,"start":16779,"end":16887},"Also, okay, ich geborene's immer noch, ich red jetzt in der Vergangenheit, wie, ja, irgendwie kommentieren, sich gegenseitig folgen, liken und, ja Rezepte selber einstellen und solche Geschichten dann quasi auf das internationale Level gebracht.",{"text":35902,"start":16890,"end":16933},"Und ja, das ist halt so eine Art Kochanleitung Community unter dem Namen Anyone Can Cook.",94,{"sentences":35905,"speaker":108,"num_words":35912,"start":16937,"end":17011},[35906,35907,35908,35910],{"text":3039,"start":16937,"end":16938},{"text":14290,"start":16941,"end":16942},{"text":35909,"start":16942,"end":16954},"Das ist eigentlich cool zusammengefasst.",{"text":35911,"start":16954,"end":17011},"Kitchen Stories ist es aber auch natürlich erst über die Zeit zu dem geworden, sozusagen, was es was es was es dann jetzt ist.",31,{"sentences":35914,"speaker":672,"num_words":35491,"start":17013,"end":17200},[35915,35917,35919,35921,35922],{"text":35916,"start":17013,"end":17029},"Was hat das für dich damals interessant gemacht?",{"text":35918,"start":17029,"end":17072},"Weil also wenn man jetzt natürlich aus soner sehr technischen Ecke schon kommt, ja?",{"text":35920,"start":17072,"end":17170},"Und auch jetzt bei der bei der Telekom, ich mein, heute lächeln wir vielleicht son bisschen drüber, aber ja schon son bisschen an der an der Vorfront des Internets sozusagen mit unterwegs war mit dem, was ihr da gemacht habt, ja?",{"text":3039,"start":17170,"end":17173},{"text":35923,"start":17175,"end":17200},"Also so IP TV, die ersten iPhone Apps und so was, ja.",{"sentences":35925,"speaker":672,"num_words":35198,"start":17200,"end":17284},[35926,35928,35929,35931],{"text":35927,"start":17200,"end":17244},"Und dann kommt jemand, sagt so, hey, ich hab hier son, ich hab hier son Kochbuch, so.",{"text":35115,"start":17246,"end":17251},{"text":35930,"start":17251,"end":17268},"Brauch nicht dafür, so, ja.",{"text":35932,"start":17268,"end":17284},"Wie wie überzeugt man dann jemanden?",{"sentences":35934,"speaker":108,"num_words":35945,"start":17287,"end":17590},[35935,35937,35939,35941,35943],{"text":35936,"start":17287,"end":17333},"Ja, das war echt witzig, weil mir ging's ehrlich gesagt selber genauso, wie Du gerade gesagt hast so, ne.",{"text":35938,"start":17333,"end":17421},"Also ich war ja auch meine ersten Monate Greenancer, ich hab das erst mal so, ich mein, die hatten auch noch kein Geld oder nicht viel Geld, jetzt irgendwie Leute wirklich einzustellen und so.",{"text":35940,"start":17423,"end":17468},"Aber ich hab 'n, ja, letzten Endes, so dieses digitale Kochbuch war ja auch schon da, ne.",{"text":35942,"start":17468,"end":17492},"Es war jetzt nichts sozusagen Neues von der Idee her.",{"text":35944,"start":17495,"end":17590},"Was ich aber einfach gemerkt habe, dann wirklich in der eigentlichen Zusammenarbeit, ich hab's jetzt erst mal so als Projekt gesehen, aber dass es schon Potenzial hat für für für Innovation Und einfach, das Team war einfach super.",118,{"sentences":35947,"speaker":108,"num_words":35958,"start":17590,"end":17998},[35948,35950,35952,35954,35956],{"text":35949,"start":17590,"end":17753},"Also das das das kann ich nach wie vor sagen, insbesondere die beiden Gründerinnen, wo ich halt gemerkt habe, okay, da ist so viel, ja Drive dahinter, das ist irgendwie, es funktioniert einfach wahnsinnig gut mit der Zusammenarbeit, sodass ich dann mich dann nach drei Monaten, vier Monaten dann quasi committet habe, quasi dann mit einzusteigen als CTO, als erster Festangestellter.",{"text":35951,"start":17756,"end":17846},"Ich weiß noch, dass die irgendwie so mir erzählt haben dann im Nachhinein, dass die dann irgendwie keinen Arbeitsvertrag hatten und irgendwie von 'nem Freund von Rocket Internet irgendwie den Arbeitsvertrag einmal Copy Paste gemacht haben.",{"text":35953,"start":17848,"end":17924},"Und ja, und dann hat mich dann doch irgendwie gab's in diesem Bereich dann, ich hatte jetzt kein Deep Tech krasses Problem so, aber es war dann doch irgendwie spannend.",{"text":35955,"start":17927,"end":17957},"Gerade so im Technischen sind wir halt auf diese ganzen neuen Plattformen gegangen.",{"text":35957,"start":17959,"end":17998},"Wir haben halt von Anfang an, glaube ich, hatten wir eine supergute Relationship mit Apple.",155,{"sentences":35960,"speaker":108,"num_words":35971,"start":18001,"end":18203},[35961,35963,35965,35967,35969],{"text":35962,"start":18001,"end":18074},"Ich glaube, weil wir auch son typisches, ja, Apple Like Produkt waren, also die sind ja immer so, ja, wo halt irgendwie so dieses Tool den Content trifft, ne.",{"text":35964,"start":18074,"end":18102},"Wo halt dann auch diese Glossy Bilder und Videos irgendwie sind.",{"text":35966,"start":18102,"end":18128},"Ich glaub, da war haben wir son Nerv getroffen bei denen.",{"text":35968,"start":18131,"end":18150},"Also dass wir irgendwie so dauergefeatured waren überall.",{"text":35970,"start":18150,"end":18203},"Und dann wurden wir natürlich immer auch eingeladen, irgendwie zu diesen, ja, Events und beziehungsweise dann auch so private Session.",79,{"sentences":35973,"speaker":108,"num_words":35984,"start":18203,"end":18403},[35974,35976,35978,35980,35982],{"text":35975,"start":18203,"end":18235},"Also ich bin, glaub ich, zwei oder dreimal nach Cupertino geflogen.",{"text":35977,"start":18238,"end":18270},"Kann ich, glaube ich, jetzt auch drüber reden, zehn über zehn Jahre später.",{"text":35979,"start":18272,"end":18374},"Ja, also zum Beispiel direkt nach der Vorstellung der Apple Watch, ne, wurden wir dann also nach Cupertino in son Raum ohne Fenster geladen und sollten dann auf diesen halbfertigen, wirklich muss man sagen, halbfertigen System halt oder konnten, ne.",{"text":35981,"start":18374,"end":18390},"Es war ja eine eine Durften.",{"text":35983,"start":18394,"end":18403},"Durften, ne genau.",73,{"sentences":35986,"speaker":108,"num_words":35997,"start":18403,"end":18617},[35987,35989,35991,35993,35995],{"text":35988,"start":18403,"end":18412},"Opportunity, genau.",{"text":35990,"start":18414,"end":18427},"Halt eine Watch App bauen.",{"text":35992,"start":18431,"end":18536},"Und ich weiß, dass also zweimal am Tag kam dann irgendwie einen Apple Entwickler mit 'nem frischen USB Stick mit 'ner neuen EX Code Beta Version, der irgendwie die Bugs, die wir gefunden haben, die wir, die dann gefixt wurden.",{"text":35994,"start":18536,"end":18588},"Also das, ja, das war halt dann irgendwie so das Spannende kam dann, auch wenn vielleicht das Thema irgendwie so, ja, Kochbuch.",{"text":35996,"start":18591,"end":18617},"Aber ich glaube, ja, wir sind dann einfach sehr schnell so Multiplattform.",81,{"sentences":35999,"speaker":108,"num_words":35945,"start":18620,"end":18921},[36000,36002,36004,36006,36008],{"text":36001,"start":18620,"end":18701},"Wir haben halt, also ich hab ja auch hauptsächlich getrieben durch mich dann, wo ich dann gedacht war, ey, wo können wir dieses Produkt platzieren, sind wir natürlich Android in die TVs reingegangen.",{"text":36003,"start":18701,"end":18743},"Wir haben irgendwie eine Kooperation mit Samsung gemacht, dass wir da vorinstalliert waren auf Smart TVs.",{"text":36005,"start":18747,"end":18858},"Und dieses Produkt, was ja auch sehr videolastig wieder war, was ja auch son bisschen wieder zurückgeht in das, was ich vorher gemacht hatte, war dann irgendwie so auf Augenhöhe irgendwie mit diesen Mediatheken und Co überall so auf diesen ganzen Firesticks und und Co.",{"text":36007,"start":18858,"end":18903},"Und das das war dann irgendwie schon schon spannend, da halt so in alle diese Softwarestacks irgendwie reinzuschnuppern.",{"text":36009,"start":18907,"end":18921},"Und genau und Das heißt auch.",{"sentences":36011,"speaker":108,"num_words":35212,"start":18924,"end":18936},[36012,36014],{"text":36013,"start":18924,"end":18932},"Im Backend.",{"text":1268,"start":18932,"end":18936},{"sentences":36016,"speaker":129,"num_words":35692,"start":18936,"end":18990},[36017],{"text":36018,"start":18936,"end":18990},"Wenn damals Apple das so spannend fand und so die Zeit zweitausendvierzehn, dann war das wahrscheinlich nativ iOS Entwicklung dann oder?",{"sentences":36020,"speaker":108,"num_words":35108,"start":18990,"end":19173},[36021,36023,36025,36027,36029],{"text":36022,"start":18990,"end":19004},"Genau, das war nativ iOS Entwicklung.",{"text":36024,"start":19004,"end":19063},"Damals gab's ja auch jetzt, abgesehen von irgendwelchen Webgeschichten, nicht viel, was schön aussieht, was jetzt heute wie Flatter zum Beispiel heute ist.",{"text":36026,"start":19065,"end":19102},"Und jede dieser Apps, die ich grade beschrieben hab, war natürlich auch eine native App.",{"text":36028,"start":19102,"end":19112},"Also das, ja.",{"text":36030,"start":19116,"end":19173},"Und ja, und das ist schon, muss ich wirklich sagen, gerade die Anfangszeit war wirklich schon eine wilde Zeit so im CDO Dasein.",{"sentences":36032,"speaker":108,"num_words":36043,"start":19173,"end":19431},[36033,36035,36037,36039,36041],{"text":36034,"start":19173,"end":19205},"Das war erstens natürlich so, dass, hey, ich bin neu in 'nem Job.",{"text":36036,"start":19208,"end":19242},"Und natürlich hat man, bringt man irgendwie so einen Teil, bringt man irgendwie mit.",{"text":36038,"start":19242,"end":19261},"Das ist so diese Tech Erfahrung, ne.",{"text":36040,"start":19261,"end":19390},"Ich würd sagen, jeder, der irgendwie so zumindest ein oder zwei Stacks einmal so richtig professionell irgendwie gemacht hat, kann dann auch relativ schnell oder ist irgendwie in diesem Seniority Level, das ist so eine Voraussetzung, dann kann man halt so sein Wissen relativ zügig planen, sich neue Sachen irgendwie aneignen.",{"text":36042,"start":19393,"end":19431},"Für mich so eine Grundvoraussetzung auch für diese Lead Rolle, für diese Tech Lead Rolle.",100,{"sentences":36045,"speaker":108,"num_words":35532,"start":19434,"end":19707},[36046,36048,36050,36051,36053],{"text":36047,"start":19434,"end":19483},"Und dazu kam dann halt, ja, letzten Endes dann auf einmal, ja, so Entscheidung, okay, bauen wir jetzt Personal auf.",{"text":36049,"start":19486,"end":19641},"Wir mussten dann zeitweise auch wieder der Personal abbauen, also so irgendwie Achterbahnfahrt, wirklich vor auch wirklich schwierigen Entscheidungen, weil ich meine, es war halt einfach von der Finanzierung und hat sich dann so so durch die Finanzierungsrunden irgendwie gehangelt und ich wusste dann ja auch, ich war ja auch Teil des Managementteams, unser Geld reicht noch bis Mai.",{"text":19646,"start":19644,"end":19645},{"text":36052,"start":19645,"end":19655},"Was machen wir jetzt?",{"text":36054,"start":19658,"end":19707},"Und okay, wir könnten jetzt überlegen, wie kriegen wir das noch bis in den Herbst, weil das saisonal irgendwie besser ist?",{"sentences":36056,"speaker":108,"num_words":36067,"start":19710,"end":20084},[36057,36059,36061,36063,36065],{"text":36058,"start":19710,"end":19829},"Und das war natürlich dann schon noch mal dieser Ballast an, sagen wir mal Aufgaben und Verantwortung und auch, ich nenn's mal kaltes Wasser, was was wirklich so dazu kam, wo man glaube ich, wo ich persönlich, ich als CTO, glaube ich, wirklich dann noch mal wahnsinnig gewachsen bin.",{"text":36060,"start":19829,"end":19959},"Also durch diese, ja, Situation und klar, waren's dann irgendwie auch schwere Entscheidungen wie Kündigung im Team mit Leuten, die man irgendwie einfach sehr gerne mag und mit denen man gut zusammenarbeitet oder halt, ja, irgendwie Leute einstellen und und in dieser Achterbahn haben wir uns son bisschen gefunden, wiedergefunden.",{"text":36062,"start":19962,"end":20031},"Und ich hab am Anfang sozusagen die Entscheidung sehr bewusst getroffen, weil wir ja son bisschen so Mobile first waren wir ja so im ersten Jahr, ersten anderthalb Jahre.",{"text":36064,"start":20034,"end":20041},"Wir machen kein Backend.",{"text":36066,"start":20044,"end":20084},"Wir machen nur Mobile und dann, ich weiß nicht, ob ihr euch erinnert, ich hab nämlich auf gesetzt.",150,{"sentences":36069,"speaker":108,"num_words":36079,"start":20088,"end":20375},[36070,36072,36073,36075,36077],{"text":36071,"start":20088,"end":20128},"Ich weiß nicht, wie ihr Pass noch kennt, das ist son Backend as a Service.",{"text":3039,"start":20131,"end":20132},{"text":36074,"start":20135,"end":20165},"Von wurde, glaub ich, von von von Facebook dann immer gekauft.",{"text":36076,"start":20168,"end":20308},"Und ja, und wir haben halt, und ich mein, das wär auch, würd ich, glaub ich, die Entscheidung wieder so treffen, grade wenn man irgendwie in sonem Flux noch ist, das Produkt quasi und auch das Geschäftsmodell in in der Zeit über bei Kitschesteug noch sehr im Flux und es hat sich sehr viel immer sehr schnell geändert.",{"text":36078,"start":20311,"end":20375},"Und da ja, irgendwie hatten wir auch so featureseitig und auch so so sagen wir mal das Domain Model quasi auch eher flexibel gehalten.",109,{"sentences":36081,"speaker":108,"num_words":36091,"start":20375,"end":20791},[36082,36084,36085,36087,36089],{"text":36083,"start":20375,"end":20501},"Und insofern hab hab ich die Entscheidung getroffen, dass wir am Anfang nur Mobileentwickler quasi einstellen, die dann aber eben, ne, Pars hatte dann son SEC und einen Webkonfiguration sozusagen, son bisschen die Datenstruktur irgendwie festzulegen, aber eigentlich son bisschen wie's Firebase heute macht, ne.",{"text":1268,"start":20501,"end":20503},{"text":36086,"start":20505,"end":20557},"Genau und das das da haben wir dann relativ lange durchgehalten und auch wirklich große nutzenden Zahlen über abgefackelt.",{"text":36088,"start":20561,"end":20689},"Als wir international gingen und dann wirklich auch so diese Apple featurings irgendwie hatten und so, haben wir dann irgendwann mit, mit dem Team, es wurd Krisentelefonate gehabt, weil wir dann, das hat sich irgendwie auch rausgestellt, dass wir eine der größten Installationen irgendwie von diesem Pars System irgendwie waren.",{"text":36090,"start":20689,"end":20791},"Und ja, aber dann, ich glaub rückblickend sozusagen, wir haben dann an dem Punkt sozusagen entschieden, an irgend 'nem Punkt entschieden, okay, jetzt ist irgendwie so alles so gefestigt und auch finanziell, dass wir quasi jetzt uns 'n eigenes Backend irgendwie bauen können.",158,{"sentences":36093,"speaker":108,"num_words":36096,"start":20791,"end":20965},[36094],{"text":36095,"start":20791,"end":20965},"Und dann haben wir da relativ straight forward dann mit irgendwie Python und und und Django, sone gesunde Mischung aus, glaub ich, auch viele haben so Monolithen, aber dann einfach noch einige so kleinere Service, zehn, fünfzehn irgendwie außen rum, das dann quasi im laufenden Betrieb dann migriert, zumal es passt dann irgendwann hinaus, dass ich den Betrieb einstellen, was schon ganz gut am",64,{"sentences":36098,"speaker":672,"num_words":35151,"start":20967,"end":20992},[36099],{"text":36100,"start":20967,"end":20992},"Wahrscheinlich direkt, nachdem ihr gekündigt habt so, ja okay, jetzt jetzt",{"sentences":36102,"speaker":108,"num_words":36110,"start":20995,"end":21087},[36103,36105,36106,36108],{"text":36104,"start":20995,"end":21008},"Nee, unser Teil der weggeworden.",{"text":21016,"start":21013,"end":21014},{"text":36107,"start":21014,"end":21050},"Wir hatten die die Entwickler, aber wir mussten uns dann doch noch mehr beeilen.",{"text":36109,"start":21053,"end":21087},"Und ja, und das war dann, ja, aber eine gute und richtige Entscheidung letzten Endes.",35,{"sentences":36112,"speaker":672,"num_words":35532,"start":21090,"end":21354},[36113,36115,36117,36118,36120],{"text":36114,"start":21090,"end":21174},"Du hast ja grade so diverse Unsicherheiten auch angesprochen, ne, und wie ihr euch da so eingependelt habt zwischen 'n bisschen Wachstum und 'n bisschen, ich sag mal, konservativeren Phasen vielleicht auch, ja.",{"text":36116,"start":21176,"end":21208},"Und gleichzeitig wart ihr ja relativ früh in diesem Multiplattformspiel so unterwegs.",{"text":1268,"start":21211,"end":21212},{"text":36119,"start":21214,"end":21306},"Wie nimmt man das dann wahr, wenn man ja quasi auf der einen Seite so seine eigene Story hier schreiben will und auf der anderen Seite ja auch so eigentlich nur 'n Spielball von ganz großen anderen Playern ist, ja.",{"text":36121,"start":21306,"end":21354},"Also ähnlich wie bei uns ja auch, aber grade, wenn man sich noch enger an diese Plattform bindet, ja.",{"sentences":36123,"speaker":672,"num_words":35180,"start":21354,"end":21431},[36124,36126,36128],{"text":36125,"start":21354,"end":21386},"Hier son son Deal mit Samsung, da auf den TVs zu sein, ja.",{"text":36127,"start":21386,"end":21408},"Dann irgendwie hier mit Apple ganz dicke irgendwie zu sein.",{"text":36129,"start":21410,"end":21431},"Und das das hat ja alles Licht- und Schattenseiten.",{"sentences":36131,"speaker":108,"num_words":36142,"start":21435,"end":21823},[36132,36134,36136,36138,36140],{"text":36133,"start":21435,"end":21478},"Na ja, das hat ja, natürlich irgendwie gewisse gewisse Abhängigkeiten, Klumpenrisiko, was das Geschäft anbelangt.",{"text":36135,"start":21481,"end":21547},"Dass, ich meine, wir haben also uns, sag ich mal, der ersten Hälfte meiner Anwesenheit eher sozusagen so ums Wachstum gekümmert, ums reine Nutzerwachstum.",{"text":36137,"start":21551,"end":21604},"Das war schon auch gut und sinnvoll erst mal zu sagen, okay, wir wir bauen irgendwie so die Brand auf, so die Markenbekanntheit.",{"text":36139,"start":21608,"end":21626},"Ist ja international auch wirklich echt nicht so leicht.",{"text":36141,"start":21630,"end":21823},"Und da wars natürlich irgendwie schon so Mittel zum Zweck und irgendwie ja auch technologisch, wenn Du da 'n Team hast und davon waren halt einige irgendwie irgendwie iOS Entwickler und ich glaub in vielen, zumindest damals iOS Entwickler ist ja auch immer son bisschen Apple Fanboy, Fangirl, war's ja auch cool, dann irgendwie den neuesten, eigentlich mit jedem iOS Update wieder den neuesten Zeug im September irgendwie live zu haben, ne, mit den neuesten Features, SDK Features.",149,{"sentences":36144,"speaker":108,"num_words":36155,"start":21825,"end":22281},[36145,36147,36149,36151,36153],{"text":36146,"start":21825,"end":21842},"Ey, das ist heute überhaupt nicht mehr so.",{"text":36148,"start":21844,"end":21916},"Das wird heute, glaube ich, eine wesentlich untergeordnete Rolle, aber ich glaube, wir haben diese Welle irgendwie ganz gut mitgenommen damals, sozusagen für sozusagen, wie Wachstum zu sorgen.",{"text":36150,"start":21920,"end":22099},"Aber dann sozusagen beim Geschäft, zumindest sozusagen, also wir waren ja kein BTC Premium Produkt, was auch relativ schwierig ist in diesem Rezeptumfeld, weil Rezepte ja irgendwie given und for free sind so, haben wir halt ja, uns die zweite Hälfte sozusagen eher eher ums ums ums ums Geschäft gekümmert, dann nachhaltig wirklich auch auf der Revenue Seite zu wachsen und das ist, dazu war jetzt Apple keine supergroße Hilfe.",{"text":36152,"start":22102,"end":22256},"Und und so die Abhängigkeit von diesen Großen, die Du eben beschrieben hast, sondern ich glaub, das hat uns genützt und ja, insbesondere dann, also was ja dann eigentlich so das größte, der Ritterschlag war ja dann der Apple Design Award, den wir gewonnen haben und und auch mit einem Überraschungsbesuch von Tim Cook verbunden, was irgendwie auch ganz witzig war.",{"text":36154,"start":22256,"end":22281},"Und einfach nette Erfahrungen auch irgendwie motivierend fürs Team.",176,{"sentences":36157,"speaker":129,"num_words":34992,"start":22285,"end":22345},[36158,36159],{"text":22288,"start":22285,"end":22286},{"text":36160,"start":22290,"end":22345},"Wie viel hast Du in dieser Zeit denn selbst noch Hand angelegt oder warst Du da schon komplett nur managt, managet unterwegs?",{"sentences":36162,"speaker":108,"num_words":36173,"start":22348,"end":22641},[36163,36165,36167,36169,36171],{"text":36164,"start":22348,"end":22428},"Ich hab schon natürlich, am Anfang hab ich quasi alles gemacht und je mehr Team da war, ich quasi einstellen konnte, desto mehr, ja, hab ich dann ja letztens auch abgegeben.",{"text":36166,"start":22431,"end":22514},"Ich meine, das ist, glaube ich, auch noch mal für alle City Oster draußen dieser, wenn man sozusagen wirklich von der Gründungsphase dabei ist, so ist schon einen ganz wichtiger Punkt dieses Loslassen.",{"text":36168,"start":22517,"end":22555},"Gerade wenn das Team da ist, einem wirklich klar zu werden, was ist eigentlich meine Rolle jetzt?",{"text":36170,"start":22555,"end":22589},"Und das ist in sonem ständigen Wechsel und es kann auch schmerzhaft sein.",{"text":36172,"start":22591,"end":22641},"Genau, also ich hab dann eigentlich so ab, ja, ich hab mich dann immer mehr eigentlich so aus dem Code rausgezogen.",115,{"sentences":36175,"speaker":108,"num_words":36186,"start":22645,"end":23041},[36176,36178,36180,36182,36184],{"text":36177,"start":22645,"end":22716},"Auch, ich meine, ich hab dann quasi am gegen Ende bei Kitchen Stories sozusagen auch so das Thema Product Management, Design und und und Data Analytics übernommen.",{"text":36179,"start":22720,"end":22839},"Die Gründerin ist dann quasi in Mutterschutz gegangen und ich hab ihre Teams übernommen und was dann auch so geblieben ist, als sie wiederkamen, sodass ich dann eigentlich schon son bisschen CPT0 war in dem Unternehmen und da ist dann wirklich schon die Zeit wirklich 'n Code mitzuwühlen.",{"text":36181,"start":22842,"end":22870},"Also ich glaube, ja, das die ist dann einfach auch nicht mehr da.",{"text":36183,"start":22870,"end":23020},"Also dann ist man wirklich eher strategisch und ich meine, viel der Arbeit jetzt bei mir als CDO war schon wirklich im Management Circle entscheiden, wo geht's mit der Firma hin, was machen wir jetzt eigentlich, irgendwie abzuwägen Und zu diesem Tech irgendwie Verantwortung kommt ja dann auch wirklich eine Gesamtmitverantwortung über die Firma und eben auch eine Personalverantwortung dazu, ne.",{"text":36185,"start":23020,"end":23041},"Also wirklich zu schauen, geht's den Leuten gut?",157,{"sentences":36188,"speaker":108,"num_words":35258,"start":23045,"end":23169},[36189,36191,36193,36194],{"text":36190,"start":23045,"end":23081},"Wie wie es aber auch steht so dieses Firmenbedürfnisse gegenüber dem Personal irgendwie?",{"text":36192,"start":23081,"end":23108},"Das war ja sehr immer sehr auf Kante bei Kitchen Stories.",{"text":1268,"start":23111,"end":23112},{"text":36195,"start":23112,"end":23169},"Und und genau, also das war dann schon eher irgendwie meine Aufgabe und der Code, der hat eigentlich seitdem bei mir son bisschen nachgelassen.",{"sentences":36197,"speaker":672,"num_words":36204,"start":23172,"end":23380},[36198,36200,36202],{"text":36199,"start":23172,"end":23227},"Wie hast Du's in der Zeit dann aber trotzdem geschafft, als Teil von deiner technischen Verantwortung son bisschen im aktuellen zu bleiben, ja?",{"text":36201,"start":23227,"end":23255},"Weil natürlich durch tägliche Arbeit, das ist so der eine Weg, ja.",{"text":36203,"start":23257,"end":23380},"Und je je weiter man sich dann so vom Coach und vom Produkt entfernt, muss man ja trotzdem andere Wege finden, zu schauen, ne, was sind so neue Patterns, die da so Emergen, was sind Best Practices, was sind vielleicht 'n 'n interessantes Framework oder was Was",82,{"sentences":36206,"speaker":129,"num_words":35185,"start":23380,"end":23397},[36207],{"text":36208,"start":23380,"end":23397},"gab's die Programmier oder noch nicht?",{"sentences":36210,"speaker":672,"num_words":35321,"start":23400,"end":23486},[36211,36213,36215,36217,36218],{"text":36212,"start":23400,"end":23413},"Damals gab's die Programmierer schon.",{"text":36214,"start":23413,"end":23424},"Kommt drauf an, ja.",{"text":36216,"start":23424,"end":23447},"Also So zum Ende hin gab's die schon, so.",{"text":3039,"start":23447,"end":23449},{"text":36219,"start":23449,"end":23486},"Aber aber trotz, also ne, unabhängig von der Programmierer, wie hast Du es geschafft?",{"sentences":36221,"speaker":108,"num_words":36232,"start":23489,"end":23649},[36222,36224,36226,36228,36230],{"text":36223,"start":23489,"end":23499},"Wie hab ich das geschafft?",{"text":36225,"start":23499,"end":23527},"Ich hab angefangen, mich privat mit bestimmten Dingen zu beschäftigen.",{"text":36227,"start":23530,"end":23563},"Ich hab gelesen, also es hat ja dann auch 'n Einfluss auf die Arbeit.",{"text":36229,"start":23567,"end":23607},"Ich hab trotzdem jetzt, was meine meine Homiesacks betrifft irgendwie irgendwie geguckt, was passiert.",{"text":36231,"start":23610,"end":23649},"Also ich klar, die Praxis, das ist natürlich das Ding, was was einem dann irgendwie fehlt.",59,{"sentences":36234,"speaker":108,"num_words":36245,"start":23653,"end":23920},[36235,36237,36239,36241,36243],{"text":36236,"start":23653,"end":23704},"Nichtsdestotrotz glaube ich, wenn man einmal sowieso in 'nem Stack irgendwie zu Hause war, geht einem das auch nicht verloren, ne.",{"text":36238,"start":23704,"end":23802},"Also, weil diese diese neuesten Veränderungen sind ja meistens zumindest nur inkrementelle Updates, die jetzt nicht quasi ja komplett Dinge aufn aufn aufn aufn Kopf stellen, sodass man dann irgendwie irgendwie gar nicht mehr zurechtkommt.",{"text":36240,"start":23806,"end":23858},"Und ich meine sowas wie die Transition von Objective Sea zu Swift haben wir da hab ich natürlich mitgemacht.",{"text":36242,"start":23862,"end":23874},"Irgendwie das Gleiche bei Kotelyn.",{"text":36244,"start":23877,"end":23920},"Ja, also das, irgendwie hat man dann ja auch Erfahrungen gesammelt über die Zeit, die die einen, ja, ja.",99,{"sentences":36247,"speaker":108,"num_words":36254,"start":23920,"end":24073},[36248,36250,36252],{"text":36249,"start":23920,"end":24026},"Aber ich ich stimme dir zu, dass es schon wichtig ist, also kontinuierlich quasi diese, Fortzone son bisschen zu verlassen und seine Fühle auszustrecken und zu gucken, okay, wie kann ich mich eigentlich, wie bleibe ich eigentlich am Tag der Zeit?",{"text":36251,"start":24029,"end":24049},"Das ist schon wichtig, nicht stehen zu bleiben, ne.",{"text":36253,"start":24049,"end":24073},"Da geborene ich dir schon schon recht auf jeden Fall.",60,{"sentences":36256,"speaker":672,"num_words":35087,"start":24073,"end":24318},[36257,36259,36261,36263,36265],{"text":36258,"start":24073,"end":24095},"Ich würd's sogar vielleicht leicht andersrum formulieren.",{"text":36260,"start":24098,"end":24212},"Also ich glaube, meine Erfahrungen sind die heute wieder sprechen, aber man man kommt überhaupt nur in diese Position wie bei dir, ob das jetzt so CTO, Teamlead, CTO, wie auch immer ist, wenn man sowieso schon der Typ ist, der halt sich kontinuierlich irgendwie weiterbildet Ja.",{"text":36262,"start":24215,"end":24228},"Und so am Laufenden bleibt, ja.",{"text":36264,"start":24230,"end":24284},"Und die einzige Challenge später, wenn dir halt son bisschen der Praxisbezug fehlt, ist halt da son alternativen Channel dafür zu finden.",{"text":36266,"start":24284,"end":24318},"Aber dieses dieses Mindset, das musst Du, glaub ich, so oder so schon haben.",{"sentences":36268,"speaker":108,"num_words":36278,"start":24320,"end":24689},[36269,36270,36272,36274,36276],{"text":3039,"start":24320,"end":24321},{"text":36271,"start":24321,"end":24334},"Das stimmt, das stimmt, ja.",{"text":36273,"start":24336,"end":24476},"Und ich meine jetzt, ich meine, wenn wir jetzt sozusagen zu meinem nächsten Job gehen, was 7 meint, wo ich sozusagen schon eher, sagen wir mal, als Manager reingekommen bin und gar nicht erst wie jetzt bei, wie bei wie bei Kitchen Stories quasi mit, also die erste Zeile Code quasi geschrieben habe und verbockt habe.",{"text":36275,"start":24476,"end":24630},"Da, spätestens da war's dann auch wirklich notwendig für mich und da hab ich halt wirklich auch angefangen, wirklich noch mal eigene private Projekte irgendwie zu machen, ja, meinen Wissensdurst, den ich ja, wie Du ihn auch richtig beschrieben hast, den man, den ich, glaub ich, in mir habe, den, glaub ich, viele so in, ja, so als Voraussetzung haben, irgendwie zu stillen.",{"text":36277,"start":24633,"end":24689},"Und ja, das das ja auch jetzt eben, weiß nicht, seit ein, zwei Jahren oder seit zwei Jahren dieses ganze AI Thema, ne.",148,{"sentences":36280,"speaker":108,"num_words":35258,"start":24689,"end":24809},[36281],{"text":36282,"start":24689,"end":24809},"Also auch wenn man's nur bedingt vielleicht in der aktuellen Firma anwenden kann oder vielleicht auch brutal, aber ich mein, ganz viele haben sich ja sehr privat auch irgendwie damit beschäftigt und und und und irgendwie geschaut, welche Probleme kann das irgendwie alles auch im privaten Umfeld lösen, ne.",{"sentences":36284,"speaker":672,"num_words":35997,"start":24809,"end":25011},[36285,36287,36289,36291,36293],{"text":36286,"start":24809,"end":24838},"Du sprichst da was ganz Spannendes an, dieser dieser Jobwechsel.",{"text":36288,"start":24842,"end":24875},"Und Du hast es ja gesagt, bei Kitchen Storys warst Du relativ früh mit dabei.",{"text":36290,"start":24878,"end":24916},"Und viel von dem, was man später ja auch in soner Managementrolle braucht, profitiert ja davon, ne.",{"text":36292,"start":24916,"end":24981},"Du Du kennst die Leute, Du kennst die Kultur, Du kennst die Geschichte, Du kennst vielleicht auch so Zusammenhänge zwischen den Zeilen und so was alles, ja.",{"text":36294,"start":24981,"end":25011},"Das hilft dir son bisschen, dich da auf dem Parkett zu bewegen.",{"sentences":36296,"speaker":672,"num_words":35912,"start":25014,"end":25085},[36297,36298],{"text":1268,"start":25014,"end":25015},{"text":36299,"start":25015,"end":25085},"Wie war das für dich dann, zu 7 Mind zu kommen, die ja schon, ich weiß nicht, ich glaub son paar Jahre älter dann waren zu dem Zeitpunkt quasi schon?",{"sentences":36301,"speaker":108,"num_words":36306,"start":25085,"end":25102},[36302,36304],{"text":36303,"start":25085,"end":25096},"Fünf Jahre alt.",{"text":36305,"start":25099,"end":25102},"Und und",5,{"sentences":36308,"speaker":672,"num_words":34992,"start":25105,"end":25164},[36309,36311],{"text":36310,"start":25105,"end":25148},"und und wo dann ja quasi diese ganze Vorerfahrung gefehlt hat, aber trotzdem denselben Job machen musstest.",{"text":36312,"start":25148,"end":25164},"Wie hast Du das aufgeholt sozusagen?",{"sentences":36314,"speaker":108,"num_words":36325,"start":25167,"end":25428},[36315,36317,36319,36321,36323],{"text":36316,"start":25167,"end":25249},"Ja, das ist das ist, ja, also man hat natürlich die Gespräche mit den den Mitarbeitenden, die sozusagen dageblieben sind, beziehungsweise ich hab auch natürlich viel mit dem ehemaligen City auch noch gesprochen.",{"text":36318,"start":25252,"end":25312},"Und baut sich dann natürlich sone Vergangenheit, sone sone sone sone sone imaginäre Vergangenheit im Kopf auf, wieso ist das eigentlich so, wie es ist?",{"text":36320,"start":25312,"end":25324},"Und was ist eigentlich vorher passiert?",{"text":36322,"start":25326,"end":25406},"Aber im Grunde ist ja schon mit die Aufgabe, klar, das ist son bisschen Voraussetzung, aber aber ist ja schon auch meine Aufgabe als CTO dann aufgrund dessen eher nach vorne zu blicken.",{"text":36324,"start":25409,"end":25428},"Und deswegen also man akzeptiert Dinge, wie sie sind.",106,{"sentences":36327,"speaker":108,"num_words":36096,"start":25430,"end":25585},[36328],{"text":36329,"start":25430,"end":25585},"Man muss natürlich auch und das war bei mir so, dass bei 7 mind, quasi wie das auch manchmal dann so ist, der CTO geht und auch Teile des Teams gehen dann, also bin ich sozusagen sehr stark erst mal so in dieses Hiring und Aufbauarbeit reingegangen und wie das dann auch so oft ist, dass dann sozusagen bestimmte Surfferkomponenten an bestimmten Leuten hängen,",{"sentences":36331,"speaker":672,"num_words":108,"start":25589,"end":25590},[36332],{"text":1268,"start":25589,"end":25590},{"sentences":36334,"speaker":108,"num_words":35877,"start":25593,"end":25807},[36335,36337,36339],{"text":36336,"start":25593,"end":25685},"Haben wir dann, ne, er sagt ja auch die Theorie, quasi mit dem neuen Team dann auch entsprechend quasi bestimmte Komponenten dann halt neu, genau, und und und sozusagen ersetzt, ja, eben dieses Blick nach vorne.",{"text":36338,"start":25688,"end":25725},"Wenn ich jetzt auf die Firma gucke, okay Vergangenheit, sozusagen altes Team, Zukunft neues Team.",{"text":36340,"start":25728,"end":25807},"Klar, die Deal natürlich im Sinne der der Tech Web mit bestimmten Sachen, aber ja, man man baut ja letzten Endes mit neuen Leuten auch neue Dinge auf und das das war sozusagen meine Aufgabe.",{"sentences":36342,"speaker":129,"num_words":36096,"start":25810,"end":25969},[36343,36345],{"text":36344,"start":25810,"end":25866},"Im Wechsel von Catching Stories zu Subemind, Gab es Dinge, wo Du, die Du, die Du klar anders machen wolltest?",{"text":36346,"start":25866,"end":25969},"Also ich mein, Du hast natürlich irgendwie trotzdem Catchen Stories stark mit beeinflusst, aber hast Du dann irgendwie gesagt so, wenn ich das vermeiden kann oder wenn ich das anders machen können, dann dann würde ich das gerne jetzt, also diesen Punkt, anders machen?",{"sentences":36348,"speaker":108,"num_words":36358,"start":25969,"end":26129},[36349,36350,36352,36354,36356],{"text":3039,"start":25969,"end":25972},{"text":36351,"start":25975,"end":26003},"Ja, also ich war natürlich sozusagen nicht so tief involviert.",{"text":36353,"start":26007,"end":26060},"Also ich hatte bei Kitcher Stories dann teilweise wirklich das Problem so zwischen dieser Tiefe und dem sozusagen dem ganzen Management teil.",{"text":36355,"start":26060,"end":26092},"Und ich hab bei Sevenmann, ich war son bisschen wirklich mehr Manager.",{"text":36357,"start":26092,"end":26129},"Also das war schon auch eine bewusste Entscheidung zu sagen, okay, jetzt bin ich einfach mehr Manager.",62,{"sentences":36360,"speaker":108,"num_words":35748,"start":26131,"end":26296},[36361,36363,36365,36366,36368],{"text":36362,"start":26131,"end":26139},"Das hab ich gesucht.",{"text":36364,"start":26139,"end":26173},"Ich wollte wirklich noch mal der CPTO Rolle quasi Raum geben, ne.",{"text":1268,"start":26173,"end":26175},{"text":36367,"start":26178,"end":26191},"Und mich insbesondere diesen Produkt teil.",{"text":36369,"start":26193,"end":26296},"Und deswegen also son bisschen die Tiefe, damit meine ich jetzt die Tech Tiefe, die, das war eine bewusste Entscheidung, das anders sozusagen anzugehen und und son bisschen dieses High Level, was son bisschen mehr Richtung General Management dann auch geht, ja anzueignen.",{"sentences":36371,"speaker":108,"num_words":36381,"start":26300,"end":26589},[36372,36374,36376,36377,36379],{"text":36373,"start":26300,"end":26437},"Und ja, und dann, ich mein klar, man hat natürlich irgendwie auch Fehler gemacht, aus denen man lernt, dass ja sowieso, also ich kann nur jedem empfehlen, Dinge ausprobieren, so die Komfortzone zu verlassen und damit halt zu failen, weil das ist halt wirklich so das Beste, wo man halt wirklich lernt und keine Ahnung.",{"text":36375,"start":26437,"end":26466},"Ich hab halt, ja, am Anfang früher total behiring, ne.",{"text":1268,"start":26466,"end":26468},{"text":36378,"start":26471,"end":26524},"Ging's halt wahrscheinlich irgendwie in meiner Naivität damals schon mir persönlich natürlich, hey, ich behir jetzt hier 'n großes Team.",{"text":36380,"start":26527,"end":26589},"Mir dann natürlich wenig, weniger Gedanken gemacht irgendwie, ich mein, das war auch son bisschen die Budgetseite so, okay, wie Senior sind die Leute jetzt eigentlich?",112,{"sentences":36383,"speaker":108,"num_words":36394,"start":26593,"end":27006},[36384,36386,36388,36390,36392],{"text":36385,"start":26593,"end":26652},"Und genau, was er meint, war dann war dann natürlich auch, ich mein dann dieses Geschäft war gefestigt, eine profitable Firma, quo.",{"text":36387,"start":26655,"end":26710},"Ja, das ist dann so Learning für mich, okay, ich stell lieber eine Senior Person ein, als jetzt zwei Juniors, so.",{"text":36389,"start":26712,"end":26861},"Klar, es hängt immer von der von der Situation ab, wo man sich gerade darin befindet, also mit der Firma auch, aber wirklich noch mal dieses Hiring son bisschen mehr auf das wirkliche, ne, irgendwie Talent da draußen, wie findet man gute Leute, was wie findet man sozusagen auch Leute, die die die die man dann auch irgendwie langfristig halten will?",{"text":36391,"start":26864,"end":26936},"Und genau, das glaube ich, war son son Erkenntnis, dass ich dann schon teilweise bei Catchen zwei ist am Anfang relativ naiv und schnell da, ja, 'n Team zusammengestellt habe.",{"text":36393,"start":26938,"end":27006},"Ohne auch so diese theoretischen, ja, Gefüge wie Team Topologies und so weiter, was ich mir dann aber auch auch eher über die Zeit dann angelesen habe, ne.",162,{"sentences":36396,"speaker":672,"num_words":108,"start":27008,"end":27009},[36397],{"text":3039,"start":27008,"end":27009},{"sentences":36399,"speaker":108,"num_words":672,"start":27013,"end":27019},[36400,36401],{"text":27016,"start":27013,"end":27014},{"text":16099,"start":27018,"end":27019},{"sentences":36403,"speaker":129,"num_words":36412,"start":27019,"end":27199},[36404,36406,36408,36410],{"text":36405,"start":27019,"end":27061},"zur Aufnahme der Folge hast Du uns verraten, dass Du nicht mehr CPO der bist.",{"text":36407,"start":27064,"end":27141},"Und zu Beginn hast Du, also nicht zu Beginn, sondern zu Beginn des Jobs hast Du gesagt, okay, da wolltest Du noch mal eine neue Herausforderung und bist explizit da ins Management gegangen.",{"text":36409,"start":27143,"end":27183},"Hat dir das da nicht so gefallen oder warum, was was wird, wirst Du in Zukunft tun?",{"text":36411,"start":27183,"end":27199},"In welchem Bereich wirst Du unterwegs sein?",72,{"sentences":36414,"speaker":108,"num_words":35984,"start":27202,"end":27393},[36415,36417,36419,36421,36423],{"text":36416,"start":27202,"end":27255},"Genau, also ich bin jetzt eigentlich seit Ende letzten Jahres, genau, hab ich die Firma verlassen, vielleicht son bisschen zur Hintergrund.",{"text":36418,"start":27258,"end":27284},"Also wir haben Anfang letzten Jahres die Firma verkauft an Jimondo.",{"text":36420,"start":27287,"end":27341},"Es gab sozusagen dann natürlich, wie das dann so ist, so relativ viele Veränderungen, die quasi, ja, so Thema Integration und Co.",{"text":36422,"start":27341,"end":27368},"Ich meinerseits habe mich dann 'n paar Monate quasi rausgezogen.",{"text":36424,"start":27368,"end":27393},"Ich hab Elternzeit genommen, mich auf die Familie konnte.",{"sentences":36426,"speaker":108,"num_words":35723,"start":27393,"end":27630},[36427,36429,36431,36433,36435],{"text":36428,"start":27393,"end":27483},"Ich hab drei Kinder und die Herausforderung gehabt, dass ich einen Schulwechsel Gymnasium, eine im Sommer eine Einschulung und noch eine eingewöhner Kita quasi zu managen hatte und entsprechende Elternzeit genommen.",{"text":36430,"start":27483,"end":27509},"Und die Zeit hab ich dann auch, sagen wir mal, gut vorbereitet.",{"text":36432,"start":27512,"end":27589},"Ich hab mit meinem Team quasi so natürlich meine Abwesenheit geplant und dann letzten Endes in dieser Zeit mir natürlich selber auch noch mal Gedanken gemacht würden, welche Richtung will ich eigentlich hin?",{"text":36434,"start":27589,"end":27626},"Und ich war ja jetzt über dreieinhalb Jahre aus 'ner CPDO, weiß 7 mind.",{"text":3039,"start":27629,"end":27630},{"sentences":36437,"speaker":108,"num_words":36448,"start":27633,"end":28117},[36438,36440,36442,36444,36446],{"text":36439,"start":27633,"end":27673},"Und ja, und die Erkenntnis dann doch wieder, hey, irgendwie dann doch wieder mehr Hands on.",{"text":36441,"start":27673,"end":27740},"Weil ich mein, es war immer interessant, wirklich diese diese, sagen wir mal, fast reine Managementrolle irgendwie zwischen Production und Tech, die ich auch für sehr sinnvoll erachte.",{"text":36443,"start":27744,"end":27952},"Aber ich kann mir durchaus sozusagen jetzt für die Zeit und ich hab jetzt auch schon so wieder 'n Softwareprojekt irgendwie gemacht mit 'ner Bekannten, wirklich noch mal wieder ja, dann doch wieder zu dem zu gehen, was wo ich, sagen wir mal, am Ende des Tages irgendwie rausgehe und sehe, okay, das ist das, was ich jetzt heute geschafft habe, da kann ich irgendwie drauf stolz sein, das ist irgendwie mein Pull Request, das ist mein mein, sagen wir mal Delirable, was man irgendwie anfassen kann.",{"text":36445,"start":27954,"end":28049},"Und das ist so bei Management ja irgendwie son bisschen so dieses Und das hat schon, war schon sehr übermaßt, grade so diese Politik der Firmenübernahme, wo es dann halt wieder, wie ich's ne, eben mit der Telekom angesprochen habe, ne.",{"text":36447,"start":28049,"end":28117},"Wenn dieses Politikspiel irgendwie losgeht, dann dann geht man irgendwie aus dem Tag raus mit so, okay, was hab ich denn jetzt eigentlich heute bewegt, ne.",198,{"sentences":36450,"speaker":108,"num_words":35997,"start":28119,"end":28312},[36451,36453,36455],{"text":36452,"start":28119,"end":28139},"Ist irgendwie eher langsam, man schubst Dinge an.",{"text":36454,"start":28142,"end":28214},"Und ich glaube, da suche ich jetzt für mich persönlich auch wieder was, wo ich aus dem Tag rausgehe und sehe, ey, da hab ich irgendwie was gebaut, was auch immer es sein.",{"text":36456,"start":28214,"end":28312},"Und ich suche, also ich bin da gar nicht so festgelegt jetzt auf, was weiß ich Engineering Leadership oder auch Product Leadership, aber zumindest was, wo ich in den Gestaltungsraum habe und auch sehe, okay, das will ich irgendwie bauen.",{"sentences":36458,"speaker":672,"num_words":108,"start":28314,"end":28315},[36459],{"text":1268,"start":28314,"end":28315},{"sentences":36461,"speaker":108,"num_words":672,"start":28315,"end":28322},[36462,36463],{"text":3039,"start":28315,"end":28318},{"text":14290,"start":28321,"end":28322},{"sentences":36465,"speaker":672,"num_words":34974,"start":28325,"end":28365},[36466],{"text":36467,"start":28325,"end":28365},"Ja, versprechen wir uns ja dann in fünf Jahren noch mal und schauen, was er dann gebaut hat.",{"sentences":36469,"speaker":129,"num_words":672,"start":28365,"end":28370},[36470],{"text":36471,"start":28365,"end":28370},"Ja, absolut.",{"sentences":36473,"speaker":108,"num_words":36306,"start":28373,"end":28383},[36474,36476],{"text":36475,"start":28373,"end":28377},"Sehr schön.",{"text":36477,"start":28377,"end":28383},"Ja, sehr gerne.",{"sentences":36479,"speaker":129,"num_words":36254,"start":28385,"end":28535},[36480,36482],{"text":36481,"start":28385,"end":28469},"Einmal gerne noch kurz auch so, weil CPTO ist, glaub ich, was, was man immer mehr auch sieht als als Rollenbezeichnung, wo dann Product Management und eben die die technische Verantwortung irgendwie einhergeht.",{"text":36483,"start":28472,"end":28535},"Ich mein, Du hast es jetzt auch dann ja erste, also okay, Du hast gesagt, bei Kitchen Stories kam es durch die durch die Elternzeit der Gründerin,",{"sentences":36485,"speaker":108,"num_words":108,"start":28539,"end":28540},[36486],{"text":1268,"start":28539,"end":28540},{"sentences":36488,"speaker":129,"num_words":36499,"start":28543,"end":28653},[36489,36491,36493,36495,36497],{"text":36490,"start":28543,"end":28555},"Dass Du das mit übernommen hast.",{"text":36492,"start":28558,"end":28572},"Wie ist so dein Take dazu?",{"text":36494,"start":28575,"end":28609},"Also sollten das viele Firmen machen, kommt sehr drauf daran an, wie die Firma strukturiert ist.",{"text":36496,"start":28609,"end":28630},"Hältst Du viel von dem Gemischten aus CPTO?",{"text":36498,"start":28634,"end":28653},"Was ist son bisschen dein dein Take zu dieser Rolle?",46,{"sentences":36501,"speaker":108,"num_words":35087,"start":28656,"end":28911},[36502,36503,36505,36507,36509],{"text":1268,"start":28656,"end":28657},{"text":36504,"start":28657,"end":28694},"Also ich kann gar nicht ultimativ sagen, ob das jetzt sinnvoll ist oder nicht sinnvoll ist.",{"text":36506,"start":28694,"end":28704},"Es hat durchaus Vorteile.",{"text":36508,"start":28707,"end":28832},"Das ist, ist ja oft so aus dem Erwachsen, dass so da Reibung stattfindet zwischen, sagen wir, den, der CPO oder der Head of Product versus CTO und ne Head of Engineering, dass da ja oft so, sagen wir mal, starke Interessenkonflikte irgendwie stattfinden, ne.",{"text":36510,"start":28832,"end":28911},"Son bisschen dieses okay, der eine ist sehr auf sagen wir KPIs und und und und Erfolg fokussiert und der und der technische Gegenpart mehr auf wirklich Scalability und Co.",{"sentences":36512,"speaker":108,"num_words":36523,"start":28911,"end":29405},[36513,36515,36517,36519,36521],{"text":36514,"start":28911,"end":29077},"Und wenn es sozusagen und das hab ich schon öfter gesehen, das war zum Beispiel auch der Fall bei Step Mind, bevor ich kam, dass es so zu 'nem sehr großen Grat hat, diese Reibung gab zwischen diesen beiden Rollen, was die Zukunft der Firma betrifft Und da eine Zusammenarbeit, die, wenn er auf den hohen Level, die irgendwie schlecht ist, dann halt auch so runter runtergeht.",{"text":36516,"start":29081,"end":29110},"Und so war natürlich besser für meine persönliche Aufgabe, diese Teams zusammenzubringen.",{"text":36518,"start":29113,"end":29272},"Also dass der Produktmanager ordentlich kommuniziert mit dem mit dem Entwickler und umgekehrt, dass der Designer immer mit dabei ist und das sozusagen im Kleinen, also dort, wo ja wirklich dann Innovation stattfinden soll in diesen Teams, die ja eigentlich unterschiedlich, ne, man sagt ja immer so der Her Crossfunktion der Teams, ne, aber da ist ja die Zusammenarbeit der Schlüssel eigentlich der Zusammenarbeit.",{"text":36520,"start":29275,"end":29358},"Und da war natürlich meine Aufgabe sozusagen die Teams zu allein, aber dieser innere Konflikt, also der der Konflikt, der der ist natürlich dann so im, findet dann natürlich in meinem Kopf statt so, ne.",{"text":36522,"start":29360,"end":29405},"Ich hab natürlich auch dann, bin auch hin- und hergerissen zwischen, hey, hier große Visionen, wo geht's hin?",196,{"sentences":36525,"speaker":108,"num_words":36536,"start":29408,"end":29682},[36526,36528,36530,36532,36534],{"text":36527,"start":29408,"end":29449},"Und dann der CTO, der in meinem Kopf dann sagt, oh, wieso lässt denn alles gentechnisch so.",{"text":36529,"start":29452,"end":29565},"Und aber ich glaube sozusagen fürs Team gibt es Situationen, wo das wirklich, ja, sehr sinnvoll ist, gerade wenn Du eine Organisation hast, die die die halt unter, ja, 'ner sehr starken, sone sehr starke künstliche Grenze irgendwie zwischen Product und Engineering irgendwie ist, ne.",{"text":36531,"start":29565,"end":29645},"Wo die Designer und die Produktmanager irgendwie in soner anderen Welt leben als die Entwickler und ich glaube, eine CPTO Rolle kann dann gut sein, wenn es darum geht, diese Teams effizienter zusammenarbeiten zu lassen.",{"text":36533,"start":29645,"end":29664},"Das kann ich kann ich eigentlich so unterschreiben.",{"text":36535,"start":29668,"end":29682},"Ob es jetzt alle Probleme löst.",111,{"sentences":36538,"speaker":108,"num_words":36543,"start":29682,"end":29838},[36539,36541],{"text":36540,"start":29682,"end":29758},"Es gibt sicherlich auch Setups, wo wo es sozusagen irgendwie umgekehrt ist und jetzt ist auch sozusagen meine Nachfolge bei 7 meint es eher jetzt auch wieder Head of Engineering Health product.",{"text":36542,"start":29758,"end":29838},"Also das das das Aber die verstehen sich halt gut und und und arbeiten gut zusammen und und genau, die ich jetzt so in den letzten Monaten aufgebaut habe, sodass sie das alleine weitermachen können.",67,{"sentences":36545,"speaker":672,"num_words":36543,"start":29838,"end":30003},[36546,36548,36550,36552,36554],{"text":36547,"start":29838,"end":29861},"Und das ist, glaube ich, der viel entscheidendere Teil, ja?",{"text":36549,"start":29861,"end":29891},"Weil wir hatten in früheren Unternehmen auch schon mal ähnliche Diskussionen, ja.",{"text":36551,"start":29891,"end":29905},"Will man das zusammenlegen oder nicht?",{"text":36553,"start":29905,"end":29965},"Und grade, was Fabian gesagt hat, na ja, das sind ja Teams und Rollenverständnisse, die ja eigentlich so diametral entgegengesetzt laufen, so, ja.",{"text":36555,"start":29965,"end":30003},"Oder oder zumindest nicht hundert Prozent allein sind, egal wie wie wie gut sie's so machen.",{"sentences":36557,"speaker":672,"num_words":36562,"start":30006,"end":30265},[36558,36560],{"text":36559,"start":30006,"end":30187},"Und wir haben uns damals bewusst dagegen entschieden unter der Prämisse, dass wir halt diesen diesen Gegensatz auch nicht aufheben wollten, ja, sondern weil weil jeder für sich schon so seine Daseinsberechtigung hatte, so jeder jeder P o, ja, jeder Productmanager, es ist vollkommen richtig, dass der anders auf dieses Produkt guckt als halt jeder Ingenieur oder Designer oder Supportmitarbeiter, der da halt irgendwie beteiligt ist, ja, das ist schon okay.",{"text":36561,"start":30189,"end":30265},"Was halt viel wichtiger ist und wo was wo wir uns dann entschieden haben, die Energie rein zu investieren, ist, dass die halt eine gemeinsame Sprache finden, irgendwie darüber sprechen zu können.",103,{"sentences":36564,"speaker":108,"num_words":672,"start":30265,"end":30270},[36565,36566],{"text":14290,"start":30265,"end":30267},{"text":30271,"start":30267,"end":30270},{"sentences":36568,"speaker":672,"num_words":36578,"start":30270,"end":30417},[36569,36570,36572,36574,36576],{"text":3039,"start":30270,"end":30273},{"text":36571,"start":30273,"end":30335},"Weil also Du Du kannst diesen Konflikt strukturell versuchen aufzuheben oder Du kannst den halt quasi auf funktionaler Ebene versuchen, so so aufzuheben.",{"text":36573,"start":30335,"end":30355},"Und das war das, was wir damals versucht haben.",{"text":36575,"start":30355,"end":30376},"Ich will nicht sagen, dass eins besser oder schlechter ist.",{"text":36577,"start":30378,"end":30417},"Ich will nur sagen, dass das Problem, was Du was Du abgerissen hast, vollkommen richtig sehe ich auch.",61,{"sentences":36580,"speaker":672,"num_words":36583,"start":30417,"end":30449},[36581],{"text":36582,"start":30417,"end":30449},"Ich würde nur sagen, es gibt nur, wahrscheinlich auch andere Möglichkeiten, das noch anzugehen.",14,{"sentences":36585,"speaker":108,"num_words":36596,"start":30452,"end":30803},[36586,36588,36590,36592,36594],{"text":36587,"start":30452,"end":30516},"Ja, also ich finde immer sozusagen, Du hast es auch angesprochen, grade, dass in diesem ganzen Zusammenarbeit, diesen crossfunktionalen ist wirklich der Schlüssel in eine gute Kommunikation.",{"text":36589,"start":30519,"end":30600},"Das ist auch einfach sone Sache, die ich in, wenn ich jetzt Leute anstelle, sei es irgendwie Pos, sei es Entwickler, schon auch sehr, sehr ernst nehme, wie gut können die eigentlich kommunizieren?",{"text":36591,"start":30604,"end":30626},"Wie gut können die das vermitteln, woran die eigentlich arbeiten?",{"text":36593,"start":30629,"end":30728},"Weil Du ja auch insbesondere, wenns auch eben nicht face to face zusammengearbeitet wird und und da jetzt irgendwie remote quasi, ja eben sich nicht gegenüber setzen, dann dann ist ja oft so der Kontext geht das verloren, ne.",{"text":36595,"start":30728,"end":30803},"Und Du brauchst halt Menschen, die es schaffen sozusagen, sei es eine geschriebene Kommunikation oder eben auch mögliche Kommunikation in Meetings, es irgendwie auf den Punkt bringen.",136,{"sentences":36598,"speaker":108,"num_words":35050,"start":30806,"end":31114},[36599,36601,36603,36605,36607],{"text":36600,"start":30806,"end":30864},"Und und ja, diese völlig unterschiedlichen Disziplinen und sind ja auch sehr unterschiedlich, auch wenn ich die Design noch zum Beispiel mit reinnehme, ne.",{"text":36602,"start":30867,"end":30946},"Ja, sind einfach in ihrer Summe irgendwie natürlich am besten, wie ich eben gesagt habe, aber irgendwie dafür ist dieser wirklich die Fähigkeit Also das sehe ich immer wieder, dass es irgendwie scheitert.",{"text":36604,"start":30950,"end":31004},"Also ich weiß nicht, wie viele Softwareprojekte scheitern nicht wegen irgend 'nem technischen Stack, sondern weil einfach Leute irgendwie nicht ordentlich miteinander reden.",{"text":36606,"start":31007,"end":31019},"In vielen anderen irgendwie Companys.",{"text":36608,"start":31019,"end":31114},"Deswegen also es ist nicht das Einzige jetzt auf diesen persönlichen Soft Skill Bereich, was ich für wichtig erachte, aber es ist schon mit Ein Schlüssel, so diese Übersetzungsfähigkeit der eigenen Arbeit letzten Endes zu leisten.",{"sentences":36610,"speaker":672,"num_words":35151,"start":31114,"end":31146},[36611],{"text":36612,"start":31114,"end":31146},"Da kann ich noch eine Lust gar nicht tot zu erzählen.",{"sentences":36614,"speaker":108,"num_words":672,"start":31146,"end":31151},[36615],{"text":35005,"start":31146,"end":31151},{"sentences":36617,"speaker":672,"num_words":35532,"start":31151,"end":31411},[36618,36620,36622,36624,36626],{"text":36619,"start":31151,"end":31196},"Ich glaube, was was ja superhilfreich ist an so Situationen, ist, wenn Du halt son bisschen egobefreit bist, ne.",{"text":36621,"start":31196,"end":31271},"Wenn Du halt dann, es hilft ja halt so im Tagesgeschäft, über diese Unterschiede hinwegzusehen und halt nicht alles immer gleich als persönlicher in Angriff irgendwie zu lesen, ne.",{"text":36623,"start":31273,"end":31310},"Und wir haben irgendwann mal angefangen im Recruiting, ich sag nicht nicht wo und mit wem.",{"text":36625,"start":31314,"end":31363},"Aber wenn wir so Leute im Gespräch hatten, denen einfach manchmal auch son bisschen auf die Nerven zu gehen, So, ja.",{"text":36627,"start":31363,"end":31411},"Und dann Du Du sprichst dann mit den Leuten und sagst so, hey, was hast 'n Du so für Hobbys?",{"sentences":36629,"speaker":672,"num_words":36640,"start":31411,"end":31637},[36630,36632,36634,36636,36638],{"text":36631,"start":31411,"end":31444},"Und dann sagt der Dennis so, ja, Kitesurfen mach ich voll gerne.",{"text":36633,"start":31444,"end":31476},"Und dann sagt er, Kitesurfen, das stell ich mir aber richtig langweilig vor.",{"text":36635,"start":31479,"end":31558},"So, einfach sie mal son bisschen in sone unbequeme Situation zu bringen und dann halt zu gucken so, ne, werden die so defensiv oder öffnen die sich dann eher noch mal besonders raus, ne?",{"text":36637,"start":31558,"end":31587},"Weil es gibt ja sehr unterschiedliche Arten und Weisen, damit umzugehen.",{"text":36639,"start":31590,"end":31637},"Und das war tatsächlich 'n sehr guter Indikator für, wie gut passen diese Leute später auch in so crossfunktionale Teams?",90,{"sentences":36642,"speaker":108,"num_words":36647,"start":31640,"end":31692},[36643,36645],{"text":36644,"start":31640,"end":31647},"Na ja, genau.",{"text":36646,"start":31647,"end":31692},"Und wie wie gut ist deren Fähigkeit, sozusagen unter Druck und Stress irgendwie zu funktionieren, ne?",19,{"sentences":36649,"speaker":672,"num_words":35278,"start":31692,"end":31830},[36650,36651,36653,36655,36657],{"text":3039,"start":31692,"end":31694},{"text":36652,"start":31694,"end":31725},"Und halt trotzdem auch deinem Gegenüber irgendwie noch noch nett zu bleiben.",{"text":36654,"start":31725,"end":31767},"Und ganz ehrlich, das war halt auch im im Rekurs, war war super lustig so, ne?",{"text":36656,"start":31767,"end":31828},"Natürlich haben wir denen das danach auch irgendwie allen so so noch mal erklärt, wenn sie dann eingestellt worden, sodass wir denen nichts Böses wollten.",{"text":3039,"start":31828,"end":31830},{"sentences":36659,"speaker":672,"num_words":34992,"start":31830,"end":31885},[36660],{"text":36661,"start":31830,"end":31885},"Aber da hast Du ja schon so bei dem einen oder anderen gesehen, wie son bisschen das das Gesicht so runterfällt dann, ne.",{"sentences":36663,"speaker":108,"num_words":35212,"start":31887,"end":31896},[36664],{"text":36665,"start":31887,"end":31896},"Ja, schön, ja.",{"sentences":36667,"speaker":129,"num_words":36677,"start":31898,"end":32067},[36668,36669,36671,36673,36675],{"text":10659,"start":31898,"end":31899},{"text":36670,"start":31902,"end":31976},"Wir haben bisschen Zeit laufen das Ende unserer Zeit, aber im Jahr zweitausendfünfundzwanzig darf man ja keinen Podcast machen, wo man nicht noch mal explizit ganz kurz auf AI zu sprechen kommt.",{"text":36672,"start":31976,"end":32014},"Du hast zumindest gesagt, Du hast dich ja nebenbei, ja beschäftigst Du dich auch 'n bisschen.",{"text":36674,"start":32014,"end":32028},"Von daher dein ganz persönlicher Ausblick.",{"text":36676,"start":32032,"end":32067},"Freude, Angst, wie sehr wird es deinen Job, den Job deiner Mitarbeitenden beeinflussen?",68,{"sentences":36679,"speaker":129,"num_words":35692,"start":32070,"end":32121},[36680],{"text":36681,"start":32070,"end":32121},"Große Fragen jetzt grade, aber vielleicht kannst Du es ja trotzdem einfach so deine Gefühle zu AI Anfang zweitausendfünfundzwanzig kurz zusammenfassen.",{"sentences":36683,"speaker":108,"num_words":35971,"start":32124,"end":32334},[36684,36686,36688,36690,36692],{"text":36685,"start":32124,"end":32158},"Ja, es wird uns begleiten und es wird auch kein Weg darum herumkommen.",{"text":36687,"start":32162,"end":32205},"Also man kann sich dem eigentlich nicht widersetzen, auch dieser Veränderung, die angestoßen wird durch durch AI.",{"text":36689,"start":32205,"end":32239},"Und es wird sicherlich Rollen geben, die ganz realistisch gesehen halt überflüssig werden.",{"text":36691,"start":32241,"end":32283},"Was ich sozusagen der, also zumindest bisher der AI immer noch nicht so richtig zuschreibe, ist Kreativität.",{"text":36693,"start":32286,"end":32334},"Es ist für mich immer noch gefühlt sonen, sagen wir, Pottbüro an an an an Geschichten, die zusammengewürfelt werden.",{"sentences":36695,"speaker":108,"num_words":36536,"start":32334,"end":32619},[36696,36698],{"text":36697,"start":32334,"end":32437},"Aber ich glaube, dass es in bestimmten Rollen, in bestimmten ja, Jobs nach wie vor Menschen gibt und auch geben wird, die quasi, was weiß ich, wie ihr irgendwie Spiele irgendwie bauen, entscheiden, was sozusagen gemacht wird, wie das gestaltet, ausgestaltet ist.",{"text":36699,"start":32439,"end":32619},"Natürlich, also ich sehe AI wirklich schon als 'n großer, großer Gamechanger an, aber ich bin noch nicht so weit zu sagen, okay, die AI wird jetzt auch irgendwie alles so von Grund auf irgendwie überflüssig machen, was so Softwareentwicklung betrifft, weil so ja, bestimmte Dinge, glaube ich, ja, also nach wie vor weiterhin quasi den den menschlichen Charaktereigenschaften vorbehalten ist, wenn das irgendwie so halbwegs Ja, kann ich",{"sentences":36701,"speaker":129,"num_words":36232,"start":32619,"end":32761},[36702,36704,36706,36708],{"text":36703,"start":32619,"end":32629},"kann ich gut nachvollziehen.",{"text":36705,"start":32629,"end":32661},"Ich mein, Tim Cook ist solch zu Kitchen Storys nach Berlin gekommen, ne.",{"text":36707,"start":32661,"end":32694},"Also auch das ist ja ein Part von dem Erfolg irgendwie, der da ist.",{"text":36709,"start":32694,"end":32761},"Und auch wenn eine AI die gleiche App, die er irgendwie hinstellt, sind es, glaube ich, noch mehr Faktoren, die beeinflussen, ob beim Produkt erfolgreich wird oder nicht?",{"sentences":36711,"speaker":108,"num_words":36306,"start":32761,"end":32773},[36712,36713],{"text":3039,"start":32761,"end":32763},{"text":36714,"start":32766,"end":32773},"Ja, auf jeden Fall.",{"sentences":36716,"speaker":129,"num_words":36647,"start":32775,"end":32824},[36717],{"text":36718,"start":32775,"end":32824},"Ich guck mal rüber zu dir, Jana, aber ich würd fast sagen, die Fragen müssen wir heute skippen, hä?",{"sentences":36720,"speaker":672,"num_words":35135,"start":32824,"end":32849},[36721,36722],{"text":32831,"start":32824,"end":32828},{"text":36723,"start":32828,"end":32849},"Und dafür Das schaffen wir doch noch, oder?",{"sentences":36725,"speaker":108,"num_words":36730,"start":32849,"end":32871},[36726,36728],{"text":36727,"start":32849,"end":32863},"Das schaffen wir doch noch, oder?",{"text":36729,"start":32865,"end":32871},"Noch mal,",8,{"sentences":36732,"speaker":129,"num_words":36735,"start":32871,"end":32902},[36733],{"text":36734,"start":32871,"end":32902},"aber dafür würde ich lieber auf die eine noch die eine Frage stellen.",13,{"sentences":36737,"speaker":108,"num_words":672,"start":32902,"end":32909},[36738],{"text":36739,"start":32902,"end":32909},"Eine Frage?",{"sentences":36741,"speaker":672,"num_words":36583,"start":32912,"end":32948},[36742,36744],{"text":36743,"start":32912,"end":32929},"Ach so, ja, das kannst Du auch machen.",{"text":36745,"start":32931,"end":32948},"Die stellen, ich überlass es dir.",{"sentences":36747,"speaker":129,"num_words":36752,"start":32951,"end":33165},[36748,36750],{"text":36749,"start":32951,"end":33103},"Was ich gerne noch wissen würde, Fabian, wenn Du jetzt zurückblickst auf all die Jahre, die Du schon in der Techbranche unterwegs bist, gibt es irgendwas, was Du deinem jüngeren Ich ins Ohr flüstern würdest, wenn Du zurückreisen könntest und sagen, hey, das ist 'n Pitfall, das ist was wirklich, macht das anders, verhalte dich da anders, trifft die Entscheidung anders?",{"text":36751,"start":33103,"end":33165},"Gibt's irgendwas, wenn Du jetzt die ganze Laufbahn dir so anguckst, wo Du sagst so, hätte ich das mal gewusst, das wär cool gewesen.",85,{"sentences":36754,"speaker":672,"num_words":35151,"start":33168,"end":33201},[36755,36757,36759],{"text":36756,"start":33168,"end":33187},"Und früh Nvidia Aktien kaufen zählt nicht.",{"text":36758,"start":33190,"end":33196},"Schade, ja.",{"text":36760,"start":33196,"end":33201},"Na ja,",{"sentences":36762,"speaker":108,"num_words":35723,"start":33201,"end":33434},[36763,36765,36767,36769,36771],{"text":36764,"start":33201,"end":33213},"dann Apple Aktien, nee.",{"text":36766,"start":33213,"end":33296},"Aber ja, wenn ich jetzt zurückreisen könnte, würde ich, glaub ich, schon in diese allererste Zeit bei Kitchen Stories Reisen, wo, ich hab ja son bisschen erzählt, irgendwie so so kaltes Wasser.",{"text":36768,"start":33299,"end":33338},"Man ist auf einmal so eben nicht mehr nur in diesem Tech Bereich, sondern in ganz vielen anderen Bereichen.",{"text":36770,"start":33342,"end":33383},"Irgendwie hin- und hergerissen zwischen irgendwie Management und Company, aber eben auch so Team, persönliche Befindlichkeiten.",{"text":36772,"start":33386,"end":33434},"Und was ich mir, glaube ich, ins Ohr geflüstert hätte damals zumindest in der Anfangsphase, ist, Du bist nicht allein.",{"sentences":36774,"speaker":108,"num_words":35050,"start":33437,"end":33739},[36775,36777,36779,36781,36783],{"text":36776,"start":33437,"end":33497},"Also man ist ja in der CTO Rolle irgendwie, man sagt ja irgendwie so, es gibt irgendwie oft einfach nicht son Counterpart in der Firma, ne.",{"text":36778,"start":33499,"end":33540},"Jemand, der sich, jemand sich mal auskotzen kann oder sich irgendwie Rat holen kann.",{"text":36780,"start":33540,"end":33597},"Und ich glaube, dass ich hab etwas zu spät realisiert, dass es ja da draußen einfach noch mal viele andere mit den gleichen Problemen gibt.",{"text":36782,"start":33600,"end":33710},"Und war, hab etwas spät mit so irgendwie Netzwerken, aber auch so einfach mal wirklich 'n Gespräch aufnehmen, Sagen wir mal über so dieses Technische, man ist mal relativ easy going, dann mit anderen irgendwie, hey, hier Plattform, Tech, eins, zwei, drei, was machst Du denn?",{"text":36784,"start":33710,"end":33739},"Das sind die neuesten, coolen Tools, die ihr irgendwie einsetzt.",{"sentences":36786,"speaker":108,"num_words":35877,"start":33742,"end":33953},[36787,36789,36791],{"text":36788,"start":33742,"end":33789},"Sondern eben auch, hey, ich stehe hier vor dem Problem, mein Team will irgendwie was ganz anderes als irgendwie die Firma.",{"text":36790,"start":33792,"end":33870},"Einfach son bisschen, ja, dieser dieser ja, dieser Austausch und und das kann ich einfach auch nur jedem in der Rolle ans Herz legen, weil das das bringt einfach unfassbar viel.",{"text":36792,"start":33873,"end":33953},"Wie eben auch in anderen, also in allen anderen Jobs in der Firma, die es halt irgendwie in mehreren Instanzen irgendwie gibt, so sich halt in der CTO Rolle eben nicht alleine zu führen.",{"sentences":36794,"speaker":129,"num_words":35135,"start":33956,"end":33979},[36795,36796],{"text":33959,"start":33956,"end":33957},{"text":36797,"start":33962,"end":33979},"Wärst Du noch etwas anderes gerne gefragt worden?",{"sentences":36799,"speaker":108,"num_words":35329,"start":33982,"end":34033},[36800,36802],{"text":36801,"start":33982,"end":33993},"Ich hab wunderbare Fragen gestellt.",{"text":36803,"start":33993,"end":34033},"Also da fällt mir uns gar nichts mehr ein, was ihr was ihr ihr hättet fragen können.",{"sentences":36805,"speaker":129,"num_words":672,"start":34035,"end":34039},[36806],{"text":36475,"start":34035,"end":34039},{"sentences":36808,"speaker":672,"num_words":36812,"start":34041,"end":34167},[36809,36810],{"text":36475,"start":34041,"end":34045},{"text":36811,"start":34048,"end":34167},"Mein mein Highlight ist übrigens das, was die Hörerinnen da draußen die ganze Zeit nicht mitbekommen haben, ist, also wenn ich nervös bin, brauche ich auch immer irgendwas in der Hand, mit dem spielen zu können, aber es hat ja niemand gesehen, was Fabian die ganze Zeit in der Hand hatte.",53,{"sentences":36814,"speaker":129,"num_words":36819,"start":34170,"end":34226},[36815,36817],{"text":36816,"start":34170,"end":34174},"Das stimmt.",{"text":36818,"start":34174,"end":34226},"Ich hab's auch die, ich hab zwischendurch, genau, ich hab's zum Schluss überlegt, ob ganz, ob wir's erwähnen.",20,{"sentences":36821,"speaker":672,"num_words":35128,"start":34229,"end":34237},[36822],{"text":36823,"start":34229,"end":34237},"Ah, das ist schön.",{"sentences":36825,"speaker":108,"num_words":36306,"start":34237,"end":34251},[36826],{"text":36827,"start":34237,"end":34251},"Und und die Kaveter sind.",{"sentences":36829,"speaker":672,"num_words":35151,"start":34251,"end":34279},[36830],{"text":36831,"start":34251,"end":34279},"Cool und sympathisch und die ganze Zeit mit dem Schraubenzieher in",{"sentences":36833,"speaker":108,"num_words":36842,"start":34279,"end":34394},[36834,36836,36838,36840],{"text":36835,"start":34279,"end":34287},"der Luft gefielt.",{"text":36837,"start":34287,"end":34310},"Ich weiß auch gar nicht, warum er hier liegt.",{"text":36839,"start":34310,"end":34334},"Das hat sich, glaube ich, erst mal so grundsätzlich irritiert.",{"text":36841,"start":34337,"end":34394},"Aber ich glaub, ich hab irgend eine Batterie gewechselt für meinen Sohn und der liegt hier irgendwie noch am Schreibtisch und ja.",44,{"sentences":36844,"speaker":672,"num_words":35123,"start":34397,"end":34467},[36845,36847],{"text":36846,"start":34397,"end":34419},"Na ja, das ist ja schon, das ist schon cool so.",{"text":36848,"start":34422,"end":34467},"Es es trägt so zur zur Nerd bei, wenn son son bisschen feinen Werkzeug muss aufm Schreibtisch rumliegen.",{"sentences":36850,"speaker":129,"num_words":672,"start":34470,"end":34474},[36851],{"text":36475,"start":34470,"end":34474},{"sentences":36853,"speaker":108,"num_words":36306,"start":34474,"end":34493},[36854,36856],{"text":36855,"start":34474,"end":34479},"Na gut.",{"text":36857,"start":34479,"end":34493},"Philipp's feine Ozean.",{"sentences":36859,"speaker":129,"num_words":36866,"start":34497,"end":34558},[36860,36862,36864],{"text":36861,"start":34497,"end":34533},"Fabian, vielen, vielen Dank, dass Du dir die Zeit genommen hast, heute mit uns zu sprechen.",{"text":36863,"start":34533,"end":34546},"Hat mir wahnsinnig viel Spaß gemacht.",{"text":36865,"start":34548,"end":34558},"Jan, danke auch, dir",26,{"sentences":36868,"speaker":672,"num_words":35128,"start":34560,"end":34569},[36869],{"text":36870,"start":34560,"end":34569},"Das war dein Fest.",{"sentences":36872,"speaker":108,"num_words":35786,"start":34572,"end":34607},[36873,36875],{"text":36874,"start":34572,"end":34582},"Vielen Dank an euch.",{"text":36876,"start":34582,"end":34607},"Ich war gerne hier und vielleicht sieht man sich ja noch mal.",{"sentences":36878,"speaker":129,"num_words":36889,"start":34607,"end":34789},[36879,36881,36883,36885,36887],{"text":36880,"start":34607,"end":34618},"Sehr gerne, hoffentlich.",{"text":36882,"start":34621,"end":34624},"Also gut.",{"text":36884,"start":34626,"end":34646},"Ja, ach so, fast vergessen an unsere Hörerinnen natürlich.",{"text":36886,"start":34646,"end":34684},"Noch der Hinweis, wie immer sind wir auf euer Feedback auf euer Feedback angewiesen.",{"text":36888,"start":34687,"end":34789},"Das könnt ihr uns gerne über unsere Programmier Punkt Bar Webseite schicken oder at Podcast at Programmier Punkt Bar oder jetzt sind wir auf Blue Sky und nicht mehr auf X unterwegs, also auch da gerne verloren und uns Nachrichten schicken.",69,{"sentences":36891,"speaker":129,"num_words":35912,"start":34789,"end":34880},[36892,36894,36896,36897,36899],{"text":36893,"start":34789,"end":34808},"Wir freuen uns über alles, was da kommt.",{"text":36895,"start":34811,"end":34838},"Joa, sonst irgendein Announcement, das weißt Du besser als ich.",{"text":34845,"start":34842,"end":34843},{"text":36898,"start":34843,"end":34851},"Kein Announcement.",{"text":36900,"start":34854,"end":34880},"Sehr gut, außer die Vorgabe, mehr CTO Specials dieses Jahr.",{"sentences":36902,"speaker":129,"num_words":35185,"start":34880,"end":34900},[36903,36905],{"text":36904,"start":34880,"end":34896},"Das kriegen wir bestimmt 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